Pay up or I'll...

[Procyon]

Report?

Is it wrong in the sense that I could be punished if I threaten to report players that I believe are botting if they don't pay me some adena? (Even given the ploy that I would report them anyway even if they didn't pay...)

[HIeverybody]

is it ethically wrong? yes

is it against official rules? i don't know... i'd guess no.

[Heatheren]

Why would they pay if they are not bots and can pass any bot "tests". Doesn't make sense.

[HGMspam]

[ QUOTE ]
Report?

Is it wrong in the sense that I could be punished if I threaten to report players that I believe are botting if they don't pay me some adena? (Even given the ploy that I would report them anyway even if they didn't pay...)

[/ QUOTE ]

You are walking a very thin line here. Despite the fact that it is morally corrupt it is against the rules.

It is called extortion and you are taking it out of game. If you threaten to PK if he doesn't pay... that is in game. If you threaten to report him to the GM staff if he doesn't pay... that is out of game.

All it takes for you to get in trouble in this situation is extort the wrong person. First, if it is a bot... how will they pay you? If there is someone at the helm of the character then you are threatening a false report. Then what happens if you use this same threat against someone that does not bot at all, but may be scared of being reported to a GM for anything. (If you think that doesn't happen you are kidding yourself. BTW can I see your sword. )

[JinAkanishi]

Ohh the wonderful thin line and how we dance upon it. The problem with the original posters idea is he threatened to report someone for botting unless they paid him. Botting and falsely accusing someone of botting is a valid eula breaker. Just ask all the bots in L2. Silly silly boy, this is L2 dude. Scams and scumbags abound. Spam was right to comment as he/she did but they failed to tell you that you can change your simple scam a bit and get it to work for you all "legally" in the game.

scumbag: pay me 100 adena elpy lover or it's PK!PK!.
nice player: drops 100 adena


Notice the difference. L2 is a chaotic world, where death and pk griefers can roam the land. Threaten the character dude, not the real person behind the character.

Spam, hows that? Will i get the same response from the GM's now if i reported saying someone was trying to make me pay adena or they would kill me. You guys let a siege mob kill hundreds of people in towns on Erica, you do nothing against any scammer, I don't see how my version can be touched by a GM.

And please note, I would honestly love for you to interfere in somethng like that and smack the scumbag silly with a few days ban, but from a game point of view, NC's GM's are not willing or able to cross that line.

If you do say that you could interfere, please be detailed in how this is different from other scams that you choose to ignore. Morality in games, gotta love it!

[drexis]

With all due respect spam, NC has got to re-think that rule. I am not saying that NC doesnt do a good job with banning botted accounts, but in some cases there is a massive failure. We the players have had to endure the same botted groups for 6+ months with no action taken by the company. I understand that in these "trains" there is 1 toon being played by a real person with the rest being botted. I understand how that 1 person can respond for any of the botted characters when contacted by a GM. I understand that NC may be trying to catch the big fish before banning the little ones. But NC should understand that while you get paid to do this, we pay to play. So if I want to threaten a farmer with a bot train that I will /gm him if he doesnt log or give me free money, items, etc, that should be our business. If we chose to PK them, that should be our business. Both things are in-game. Botting is an in-game reality that we must deal with every day, not an out of game one.

I'm not one to complain, but talking about "extortion" seemed pretty unsympathetic and quite honestly, lame. You allow people to create unlimitted accounts with names that mimic others so they may scam, you leave items with identical graphics ingame knowing people use this to scam. Farmers create raid groups that take out every boss on a server so they may inflate prices of a-grade gear. And now you call this extortion?

[HGMspam]

[ QUOTE ]
With all due respect spam, NC has got to re-think that rule. I am not saying that NC doesnt do a good job with banning botted accounts, but in some cases there is a massive failure. We the players have had to endure the same botted groups for 6+ months with no action taken by the company. I understand that in these "trains" there is 1 toon being played by a real person with the rest being botted. I understand how that 1 person can respond for any of the botted characters when contacted by a GM. I understand that NC may be trying to catch the big fish before banning the little ones. But NC should understand that while you get paid to do this, we pay to play. So if I want to threaten a farmer with a bot train that I will /gm him if he doesnt log or give me free money, items, etc, that should be our business . If we chose to PK them, that should be our business. Both things are in-game. Botting is an in-game reality that we must deal with every day, not an out of game one.

I'm not one to complain, but talking about "extortion" seemed pretty unsympathetic and quite honestly, lame. You allow people to create unlimitted accounts with names that mimic others so they may scam, you leave items with identical graphics ingame knowing people use this to scam. Farmers create raid groups that take out every boss on a server so they may inflate prices of a-grade gear. And now you call this extortion?

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be your business. You are right. It only becomes my business when the person being extorted sends me a petition. Even then I would not punish the guy asking for money for extortion. He would be punished for abuse of the petition system. My entire point is the the extorter has no proof that the person they are extorting is using 3rd party software.

In the end, two wrongs don't make a right. If that was the case why don't you just go buy the money. Then you can say that you only bought the money to fight farmers. That will show'em.

This is not a debate, a question was asked and I answered it.

[JinAkanishi]

I applaud the bot detection efforts and the quick responses to our petitions against bots.

Your absolutely right that party of 9 running into the wall over and over again are surely a bunch of individual players just having fun. No botting there, move along ni hao ma and wo ai ni for the win.


I don't understand why it is so hard to authenticate the game client connecting to the server.


But Spam, could you answer my scam question please. If you want I can make it a different post. I do love the "morality" in the game. I can cheat, scam, pk, grief all protected by the "game", yet i say a scary 4 letter word and i can be banned. I forgot there are 13 year olds playing, I would not want to teach them bad morals.

sorry turned into a rant post. :-(

[Champa]

[ QUOTE ]
Even then I would not punish the guy asking for money for extortion. He would be punished for abuse of the petition system

[/ QUOTE ]

so is it okay to threaten to petition against them if they don't pay? - but not actually do it?
this is not something i go around doing, but someone i know made use of this scheme from time to time, so i'm curious.

[TheIronGolem]

the simple answer per spam's post is NO you cannot threaten someone with a petition if they don't pay aup as that owuld be abuse of the petitioning system

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even then I would not punish the guy asking for money for extortion. He would be punished for abuse of the petition system

[/ QUOTE ]

so is it okay to threaten to petition against them if they don't pay? - but not actually do it?
this is not something i go around doing, but someone i know made use of this scheme from time to time, so i'm curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I get, you can never threaten the player with anything that will have real world consequences... that is what the Eula seems to indicate.

You can threaten to pk them, ks them etc... but once you start addressing the player with actions that threaten his/her ability to access the game, then I imagine, if they petition, then the one making those threats is going to have real problems.

[HGMspam]

[ QUOTE ]
I applaud the bot detection efforts and the quick responses to our petitions against bots.

Your absolutely right that party of 9 running into the wall over and over again are surely a bunch of individual players just having fun. No botting there, move along ni hao ma and wo ai ni for the win.


I don't understand why it is so hard to authenticate the game client connecting to the server.


But Spam, could you answer my scam question please. If you want I can make it a different post. I do love the "morality" in the game. I can cheat, scam, pk, grief all protected by the "game", yet i say a scary 4 letter word and i can be banned. I forgot there are 13 year olds playing, I would not want to teach them bad morals.

sorry turned into a rant post. :-(

[/ QUOTE ]

Party of 9 running into a wall... no need to be sarcstic. That has nothing to do with extorting. Don't confuse the bot problem with the question that was asked. Is it ok to ask for money under the threat of reporting?

As for your question: I didn't understand your question. I thought you agreed with me. I will explain further.

It is ok to say "give me money or I will pk you." This violates nothing and is part of the game world.

If someone says "give me money or I will report you." Not only is that person a moral midget and part of the problem, but is also threatening out of game reprise. That has nothing to do with "playing" the game. Either they are interfering with your game play and you want to report it, or they are not.

[ QUOTE ]
so is it okay to threaten to petition against them if they don't pay? - but not actually do it?
this is not something i go around doing, but someone i know made use of this scheme from time to time, so i'm curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just don't threaten out of game action for anything in game. Period.

[Heatheren]

Very well writen reply Spam. Nice work. BTW can I see your sword for a minute? ;)

[HeatherGibson]

[ QUOTE ]
Just don't threaten out of game action for anything in game. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a set amount of time that I am able to play this game. I would like to see level 75 sometime before the year 2020. So I have been pacing myself to get to that point as best I am able. I don't want to miss school or work to acomplish this, but I have been known to make some bad RL decisions cause I try to meet my ingame goals.

So when I show up to an area to gain XP and all there is are these Piece-of-**** bot trains KS me 24/7 or tell me go or I'll be PKed, then this threatening me with RL consiquences.

They are NOT being held accountable for their actions but I can be assured by you that I WILL be? Ohhh that's right, I forgot, they own THOUSANDS of accounts while I only own one. I forgot the number ONE rule of business... don't mess with your largest customers... especially when the Korean GM's have stated on their boards that NCSoft has investments in the whole botting industry... or so I have heard. (can we get confirmation on this please?)

Now as I've said before, live and let live. I almost feel sorry for these poor rice eaters.. I get to eat a nice $30 steak once a week and spend about $500 a month in gas with my truck.. that's more than they make in a month. and I'm still in High School.

So in order to prevent me from being a High School drop-out.. forcing me to find some middle-aged film director who will want to sell me off to the **** industry do who-knows-what now that I am 18 yrs old because I can't get enough XP due to all the major areas are overcamped by botters.

Help me GM's to prevent this horrible thing happening in my life. This is as real as a possibilty as the Fight agaisnt botters.

Guys, get a clue. NCSoft has no intention of fighting off a large portion of the income. Sure they might ban them once in a while for publicity reasons, but all the botters do is get more accounts and start over... thus making more income for NCSoft. It's not a bad racket, and if I ran NCSoft, I am sure I would do the same. Don't expect anything serious to ever come of the bots. Learn to deal with it or find a new game or write your own. I for one deal with it and take advantage of botters as much as I am able. I PK, KS attack, train, etc whenever I am bored or in a bad mood. Not once has any of them had the assertiveness or those 2 little things in a small sack to do anything back. In fact I am thinking of making a guild called Anti-Adena,Inc. but if I do I can almost be assured that I will be banned like it has happened to so many other people who have hunted botters 24/7.

I love Lineage 2 even though there is a double standard, bad drop rates, dishonesty from the comany and too much grinding. I have made good friends here and SARGE is the only GM that has ever said anything even remotely worth listening to on any subject. This is my openion ingame and out of game. I'll shut up now, cause my real bad day is really being reflected in this post.

[Lorak]

[ QUOTE ]
Just don't threaten out of game action for anything in game. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actualy thats false. When a clan mate sent in a screenshot of a player threatning his account and information in real life. He was told it wasn't NCSoft's problem, if the guy threatning him in game did manage it. It was his fault as security is his responsibility.

[Ratty]

So what about this scenario

"Mr Bot you are hunting on holy ground, if you do not give me the items you have taken from this land, so I may take them to the Holy Alter of drops, Then I will have to pray to the Almighty God of Spam, who may strike you down with a lighting bolt or cause a swarm of Elpys to feed upon your body. So stop this hunting now and return the items before you anger the Gods"

Now thats all in game and what I'd call roleplaying. Any flaws in my arguement ?

[Alynis]

Well if some one trys to PK me i attack, doesnt matter even if i know i will loose.

Some one trys to get money off me i say no.

If some one was to threaten me with a petition, i would petition too.

Threatening to petition is extorsion (or how ever you spell it) and doing it in a game is about as big as the school bully threatening to tell teacher if the little kid does not handover the sweeties.

[Schmusekatze]

[ QUOTE ]
Now thats all in game and what I'd call roleplaying. Any flaws in my arguement ?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. The flaw in your argument is, that you are trying to find a loophole in a perfectly plain explanation given by Spam.

No matter how you package it, it is threatening with the petition system, as there is no god "Spam" in the world of aden.

You may of course threaten them with praying to Shilien or Lirien or sacrifice them to Antharas, as those are all chars of the game.

If people would spend as much time on honest work and research, as they do on finding loopholes in rules and regulations, we would have colonies on Mars and Alpha Centauri by the end of this year.

Looped Kitten

[Woodsman]

[ QUOTE ]
So what about this scenario

"Mr Bot you are hunting on holy ground, if you do not give me the items you have taken from this land, so I may take them to the Holy Alter of drops, Then I will have to pray to the Almighty God of Spam, who may strike you down with a lighting bolt or cause a swarm of Elpys to feed upon your body. So stop this hunting now and return the items before you anger the Gods"

Now thats all in game and what I'd call roleplaying. Any flaws in my arguement ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm, do you really expect the avarage farmer drone to understand what you are saying? For one thing, they have to know who spam is.

And for the rest, I think the kitten said what needed to be said here.

[Stilts]

[ QUOTE ]
I applaud the bot detection efforts and the quick responses to our petitions against bots.

Your absolutely right that party of 9 running into the wall over and over again are surely a bunch of individual players just having fun. No botting there, move along ni hao ma and wo ai ni for the win.


I don't understand why it is so hard to authenticate the game client connecting to the server.


But Spam, could you answer my scam question please. If you want I can make it a different post. I do love the "morality" in the game. I can cheat, scam, pk, grief all protected by the "game", yet i say a scary 4 letter word and i can be banned. I forgot there are 13 year olds playing, I would not want to teach them bad morals.

sorry turned into a rant post. :-(

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you say. But the 4 letter word thing has been hammered to death. Its an ERSB something kinda thing and out of NC's hands. Because the game is rated teen. However it would be sweet to have an adult server. Maybe something NC should consider. That would really make this game complete. Nude DE's ahhh....

[Ratty]

Yes. The flaw in your argument is, that you are trying to find a loophole in a perfectly plain explanation given by Spam.

No matter how you package it, it is threatening with the petition system, as there is no god "Spam" in the world of aden.

You may of course threaten them with praying to Shilien or Lirien or sacrifice them to Antharas, as those are all chars of the game.

If people would spend as much time on honest work and research, as they do on finding loopholes in rules and regulations, we would have colonies on Mars and Alpha Centauri by the end of this year.

Looped Kitten

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there are loopholes in everything, (a big Loophole in the bot detection process) But I gotta disagree about the Great God Spam, In game I could start any in game religious Sect and pray to any God of my own naming. weather or not it would get a following is another matter. Also the Gods I create could be angered by by actions and send a plague of Elpies to devour my kneecaps, Unless of coarse they did appear in game and give me instructions to collect from the botters.
The petetion was never mentioned, but if like the name scammers out there, you can convince someone you are doing what you say you are, then as the GM's have said it is ingame so it is legal (even if immoral) and up to those in game to sort it out. How they have never yet said.

If I see anyone argue against something when they have said something simular then I will play Devils avocate, just to see how things play out, but some points are just to good not to stick in a 2 cents worth in.

[Procyon]

Spam:

There are a couple logical inconsistencies in the answers you gave, but I will forego discussing them since I know what you meant to say.

I want to point out one thing: that it's entirely possible that someone is at the keyboard and still breaking the EULA - they can be playing the game thru a different interface or leading a train of characters who are all obviously being controlled through a different interface than the L2 client - and it is to those people that, had you rendered the opposite opinion on the subject, i would have directed my extortionary threats (obviously the threat won't work on an afk bot, and a legally controlled player that is not obviously closely associated with a train of botted characters should have nothing to worry about from such a threat).

In any case, my extortion career ended before it began, thanks for the answer.

[TLuirn]

Do what I do...

+++ Adena or I buff/heal monsters!

[Belias]

[ QUOTE ]
If people would spend as much time on honest work and research, as they do on finding loopholes in rules and regulations, we would have colonies on Mars and Alpha Centauri by the end of this year.

[/ QUOTE ]
So true.