Ranged v. Melee Overhaul Suggestion

[MuadDib]

There has been a lot of talk lately about the overhaul necessary on ranged v melee PVP. This is meant to be a constructive suggestion for such an overhaul, and I would appreciate constructive criticism (i.e. not flames thanks) on it, as it is just an idea. Let me know what you think.

Ranged v. Melee needs work, as I think we all know. Nukers and archers are the ultimate PVP characters, and, for the most part, melee characters don’t stand a chance. I have fairly simple suggestions for both melee v archer and melee v nuker. Please note, I am talking about open PVP (not arena) of characters of roughly the same levels. Archer first:

The problem with archers is that they simply cannot be caught by melee classes. By the time you even get close to melee range (for the most part) you are out of cp or already dead. This is neither right as far as the game goes or as far as “reality” goes (yes I know this is a fantasy game, bear with me). In reality, a character in heavy armor would not be easy prey for an archer. Heavy armor is built at angles specifically to deflect these. Also, the plates of armor usually covered layers of leather and chain mail which served as further protection against arrows. However, a skilled archer could shoot at gaps in heavy armor, usually in the joints. My idea incorporates this theme. Archers, in PVP, should hit characters in heavy armor at 50% accuracy (or some such number, that’s not my call) reflecting the armor’s ability to deflect arrows. At lvl 40, archers should be given an active self-buff (I will call it Focus Shot) which reflects a skilled archer’s ability to spot weakness in armor. The skill description would read something like this: “Enables accurate attacks against characters in heavy armor Grade (C at lvl 40, B at lvl 52, etc) and below. Decreases movement and attack speeds.” This would accurately reflect an archer’s increasing skill at detecting weakness in armor, and would also afford melee classes a chance at catching up to fight. It would also not “nerf” archers beyond belief, they still do a ton of damage in PVP and it would not affect PVE at all.

My suggestion for nukers is slightly less well thought out, but it’s much simpler. All armor should have an associated mdef. Some armor sets should have set bonuses to mdef. It’s that easy.

Again, let me know what you think, try to avoid flaming me, and if you agree, bump this so it gets some attention.

[KimahriRonso]

Nice idea for melee vs archers, although archers in general get hard time against shields. Maybe raising more shield defence would help, but if they do that they have to put some kind of penalty for classes without shield masteries.

Melee against nukers mdef does nothing (used to do back in C1 but not any more). If you have +200 more mdef you'll still lose to nukers 10 lvls lower than you.
Their power lies in casting speed bonuses, bsps, sleep and cancel. Cancel -> Sleep -> Nuke -> GG, easiest pvp ever.

[darkbird]

Well as far as archers go a english long bow can pierce a knights brest plate at 100 yrds never mind what a xbow does :p
As for mages my main gripe is everybody cryes nerf in most FRPGs a mage points at a mountain and it becomes a crater.
Nukers should be NUKERS ;) not cigar lighters.
Melee has it's place to rush walls en mass hold off other melees.
Take and hold a area once a mage clears it & overwelm mages archers but you need masses of them ;)
Nukers agaist nukers should have conter spells ect...
Silence ;) cancel<dispel magic>;)
It's not fun to be infantry but you still need grunts ;)
People forget when they cry nerf how hard it is to be a mage in this game<don't know much about being a archer >
1. at low lvls we have to worry aboun MP never mind our low hp and our spells do alot less damage then fighter types.
2. our equipemt it 10x more expensive and if we use shots ot consumes much more ad a spirt shot cost at leas 2x the same grade soul shot.
3. Our class change quest are super hard for intance a 20lvl mystic has to got though the waste land <all creatures are dark red faster then you and most are argo..>
Every class change we have to kill red mobs travle though dangerous agro teritoy even kill magic resitant mobs.
Nobody ever mentions this when I hear nerf the mage!
I been playing my mage b4 it became popular...and worked hard for each level now just because some punk with a hand axe gets beat in pvp they cry nerf!
Mage should not be nerfed in fact we need more powerful spells !

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]
Well as far as archers go a english long bow can pierce a knights brest plate at 100 yrds

[/ QUOTE ] Yes but the longbowmen rarely (if ever) kited the knights or used their longbows in melee...

[darkbird]

that was what the melee types for to hold off the knights and other melees ...
Against one melee type even a knight a archer would just shoot them through the head b4 he went 10 ft
Never mind what magic can do
Melees were never ment to take ranged 1vrs 1 and unless you make ranged so weak that they are useless it should not be and never will be !
To make the game more realistic instead of nerfing ranges atacks they should be made more powerful!

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]
To make the game more realistic instead of nerfing ranges atacks they should be made more powerful!

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, as long as you make a bow completely useless at melee range.

[MalineII]

Although the OP brought them up, I must say - I'm sick of the realism. Give it a bloody break.

Let's just say: doom heavy on a dark elven woman provides the same protection as on a male human fighter. Not. Except it does.

'It was like this or that' can never be an arguement for overpowering a class in an MMORPG of which 1v1 PvP is indeed, now, a key feature.

[darkbird]

That i agree you should not be able shoot a bow at sombody trying to hit you with a sword ;)
But then most archers had some sort of melee weapon too ;)
And most mages have close range magic <flare> and defensive spells <imune to blades flameing skin ect> although their best spells are distant spells fireball ect
The main job of fighter types is to die and hold !

[MuadDib]

And this is starting to become what I feared: Ranged classes whining about how tough they got it. What I am proposing is a balence (no, not a rock/paper/scisors balance). If we are going to go into "real life" in depth, you will find that archers had it tough. In massive combat they would shoot as the 2 lines of melee fighters closed, and then stop shooting for fear of hitting their own troops. This isnt an issue in L2, because an archer can literally shoot through an ally to hit an enemy. Any changes here would call for a huge change in the targeting system and game mechanics (or so I assume). As for 1v1 combat, archers had to deal with terrain issues (trees and such) and (oh yeah) AIMING. Its pretty tough to, to paraphraise someone here, shoot someone in the face with a bow. There are no crossbows in this game (though I grant that these caused a tactical shift in combat) and terrain features dont really do much to help you in PVP. At it stands now, an archer has a phenominaly easy time kiting and killing melee characters (who are not merely grunts) of the same level or higher. What I proposed would serve to balance the characters without nerfing the hell out of the archers (no one wants to see them become as ineffectual as daggers) or changing game mechanics in any way. I play both an archer and a melee character, and I'm pretty sure that almost everyone admits that there is a problem here.

As for magic, dont even try to incorporate "real life." How do you know how magic interracts with steel? There is an even bigger issue here, but I have yet to think of a solution that would be fair to nukers.

/edited
Yes, we do need to get away from the "realism" here, it was just the theory on which I based my suggestion. What I would like to hear is how people think my specific suggestion would affect gameplay, positives and negatives. Thanks.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
The main job of fighter types is to die and hold !

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

Just... wow.

I think you've just proven why you don't understand anything about balance.

By the way, mage gear doesn't cost more then warrior gear. Robes cost less then heavy to craft. Your BSPS cost more per cast but you cast once or twice per mob at lower levels where the warrior is spamming SS into 10-20 swings.

Fighters need passive m.def boosts and they all need some form of a ranged snare skill. Debuffs in this game need to only last 10-15 seconds, quite a few of them last over a minute which is a ridiculous length of time based on the average length of a fight in this game.

[Ripit]

Balance in this game could come from giving all classes a chance to pick up skills of another. Before you jump me, please hear me out.

Each race has certain characteristics that are part of their L2 history. They are specific to that race. Orcs have strength and arms masteries, elves have speed and bow masteries. Dwarfs are crafters and spoil masters, human are not great at any specific thing but do well in all, dark elves maybe magic. My point is, why can't an Orc use a bow and develop skill? Why can't an elf become stronger and use a 2 handed weapon? Why can't a dwarf learn some magic?

What the game needs is some carry over skills that all races can learn. I play Orcs so I'm going to use them as an example. Why is there no way in the game for an Orc to pick up bow skills? Orcs used bows and were efficient with them. Elves are the masters no doubt but why leave a race to have no skills in using them.

Bear with me here....all weapon and mage skills should be available through certain quests your character undertakes. If I'm a destroyer I should be able to learn some bow skills to increase my range for instance. No, I can never be as good as an elven archer but I can develop some skills and work my armor set/tatoos to make myself ALMOST as good. Each race can have one skill that they alone are the complete masters of but each race has the opportunity to counter that by quests, skill advancement and tatoos. You keep the individuality of each race by making each very good at something while giving all the races a chance to mix in some skills not specific to their race.

A dwarf is a crafter, have it so others can learn to craft simple grade 1 and 2 items but retain the higher level crafting to the experts. SS can only be made by dwarfs. Just some examples.

The quest system in this game can be very unrewarding. This gives players a chance to use the quests to actually get a return from it. You can quest for a specific skill and level it through another. It will never get as high as the race that is the masters of it but you can become almost as proficient. Using your races specific skill to enhance it. What you get is a variety of players and classes. Right now all nukers use this armor, this tatoo and this staff. Using my idea you don't know what their set up is and what they advanced in skills. Make it so there is a limit on how many extra skills you can pick up, maybe even only 1.

I hope I made this clear what I'm trying to say. I have the thoughts but they don't seem to be coming out right on paper. lol

[righteousOne]

[ QUOTE ]
Well as far as archers go a english long bow can pierce a knights brest plate at 100 yrds never mind what a xbow does :p
As for mages my main gripe is everybody cryes nerf in most FRPGs a mage points at a mountain and it becomes a crater.
Nukers should be NUKERS ;) not cigar lighters.
Melee has it's place to rush walls en mass hold off other melees.
Take and hold a area once a mage clears it & overwelm mages archers but you need masses of them ;)
Nukers agaist nukers should have conter spells ect...
Silence ;) cancel<dispel magic>;)
It's not fun to be infantry but you still need grunts ;)
People forget when they cry nerf how hard it is to be a mage in this game<don't know much about being a archer >
1. at low lvls we have to worry aboun MP never mind our low hp and our spells do alot less damage then fighter types.
2. our equipemt it 10x more expensive and if we use shots ot consumes much more ad a spirt shot cost at leas 2x the same grade soul shot.
3. Our class change quest are super hard for intance a 20lvl mystic has to got though the waste land <all creatures are dark red faster then you and most are argo..>
Every class change we have to kill red mobs travle though dangerous agro teritoy even kill magic resitant mobs.
Nobody ever mentions this when I hear nerf the mage!
I been playing my mage b4 it became popular...and worked hard for each level now just because some punk with a hand axe gets beat in pvp they cry nerf!
Mage should not be nerfed in fact we need more powerful spells !

[/ QUOTE ]

wow you have no idea what you are talking about!
First mage class change quests are not the hardest I have 9 chars a little of each and the hardest/most annoying are the dwarf ones!

Your SPS might cost twice as much as SS but the mob is dead in no time. You two-four shot mobs that classes like tanks and dwarves take up to a score of hits to kill. SS costs balance out in the end!

Your gear is NOT anymore expensive!! We all have the same jewls so no diff there. Top A grade m attack wep on Erica goes for about 150-200 million same goes for top A grade Bow. Your armor is now any more expensive then top heavy. Only area there is a slight jump on not is DC robes which have recently jumped through the roof but dc set. robes 60m, helm 40m gloves 6m boots 5 m and shield 3m =114m is better then full NM helm 70m one peice 30m, gloves 10m, boots 10m shield 5m=125m.

I will say I agree nukers should own! When it comes to flat out power magical forces should own but not in .5 seconds! every other game I have seen magic in video games, D&D, ect magic takes time summoning these amounts of forces. It is not a half a second thing. I have no problem with a mage casting 10k attacks they just need to take 10-20seconds to cast. Casting speed is what makes mages unbalanced! Thats what needs to be nerfed!

[Ventx]

The only things that need to be changed is... with a bow you shouldn't be able to move while firing, or sacrifice some **** accuracy. And for mages they need less cast speed. Their cast speed even goes up past 2k on Spellsinger in C4. What the hell is NCSoft doing?

[Sam12345]

Sleep-->Nuke--->Sleep--->Nuke-->Sleep-->Nuke isnt pvp and your terrible if you do it

Cancel is gimped in c4 i tried it on pts

The Idea for all armors to have an M def boost is dumb because there are buffs in C4 that block warer/wind/fire/earth Sleep = earth spell(yes it is) Aura Flare = almost Useless in C4 completely gimped. But ofcourse :) all 78 soul screamers,archmages and mystic muses get a spell that almost doubles their M attk GL fighters

[MuadDib]

I would like to redirect this thread, all the things that are being said have already been said in previous threads. What I would like to discuss (please) is my initial suggestion regarding ARCHER vs melee. My suggestion for mdef on armor was ill-advised, and would do nothing to solve the problem of nukers being overpowered. Casting speed changes and such are the correct solution to this problem. So, if folks could please respond with a "Yes I like this part of your idea but not this part" or a "No, I like [insert another idea here] better" that would be wonderful, and we might actually get a constructive suggestion generated. I dont mean to be a jerk or anything, but I dont think we are making any headway in the development of ideas here. Thanks very much for your understanding.

[Eriot]

Ripit: i would love if we got a system like that, wont ever happen but i would love it. mostly becouse it would allow more unic characters. then i could make a battle mage with less powerd nukes and a dragon slayer (it just looks so **** good).. and we would se alot of new intresting combinations and not just the few static ones we have now.

when it comes to archers vs melee i think a snare/short root skill would work aswell as giving archers atleast some penalty for shooting in close combat.

[Haygole]

I also 100% /sign that casting speed is what is tilting things so baddly. Its silly to say mages shouldn't do alot of damage. With bsps they do about all the damage anyone could hope for, but come on. Even God waits a few seconds to send down another lightning bolt. Mages should be the big guns behind the melees sending in the big bombs, but at a reasonable rate. Also, this could actualy breath some life into the multiple-mage casting thing. Why even bother with that kind of thing now when you can just zap away with your C grade mage weapon?

Archer vs Melee.... I really don't know. Honestly, it isn't ALL that broken compared to mages. An archer should be able to kite, its what they do. If an archer wants to get away from a Destroyer or whatever, he should be able to. They do alot of damage, but you can kinda cut this down with a shield. LOL All I can think of is make them go back to town for arrows every 50 or so!! J/K I'm sitting here trying to think of a good suggestion, and I just can't come up with something that sounds fair. I got it!! Give them an S grade bow with Focus SA!!! Wait..

[GrensealO]

I think this whole issue can be resolved by increasing the damage of melee attacks and fixing the tracking of moving targets. Nukers and archers would still dominate at range, but melee fighters would once again have the advantage at close combat as was designed.

With that said, many threads have quarrelled over this problem ad nauseam citing realism, the physics of fantasy, how it's done in other games, the assumed whims of the NCsoft leadership in Korea; but discussions always break down into name calling, chest pounding, and obstinance. It seems no one wants to budge for their fellow players.

Unless you all have forgotten, this is a massively multiplayer online game, and therefore how much entertainment you take away from the game is significantly affected by the experiences of numerous other players. When a large number of players are hampered by faulty design, then everyone's fun is diminished.

[Taraza]

MANY melee classes can beat equal lvl and equipped archers. I don't feel there is a problem AT ALL with melee vs. archers. The whole running and not swinging bug is bad but seriously melee and archers aren't terribly unbalanced. C3 changed it so shields have crit blocks and so they block specials AND so they block critical attacks more often. And with advanced shield buff you block more damage thus taking A LOT less from archers. Even evasion classes have a fair chance at archers since arrows miss a lot.

About mages, they are only overpowered because casting speed and Bsps, everyone knows it, its not even an argument really.

[Haygole]

The whole "I can't hit you because you are running away from me" thing had totaly slipped my mind. I guess if I would change anything in melee/archer combat it would be that. That's everbody vs everybody combat though, and its so freaking annoying.

Don't tell me target is too far, get close enough you lazy toon!

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
MANY melee classes can beat equal lvl and equipped archers. I don't feel there is a problem AT ALL with melee vs. archers. The whole running and not swinging bug is bad but seriously melee and archers aren't terribly unbalanced. C3 changed it so shields have crit blocks and so they block specials AND so they block critical attacks more often. And with advanced shield buff you block more damage thus taking A LOT less from archers. Even evasion classes have a fair chance at archers since arrows miss a lot.

About mages, they are only overpowered because casting speed and Bsps, everyone knows it, its not even an argument really.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play a class with entangle right?

Gladiator vs Silver Ranger
Gladiator entangled for 2 minutes... gets slaughtered while feebly attempting to chase the archer. Any class without a snare gets slaughtered by archers so its not balanced for all melee classes.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MANY melee classes can beat equal lvl and equipped archers. I don't feel there is a problem AT ALL with melee vs. archers. The whole running and not swinging bug is bad but seriously melee and archers aren't terribly unbalanced. C3 changed it so shields have crit blocks and so they block specials AND so they block critical attacks more often. And with advanced shield buff you block more damage thus taking A LOT less from archers. Even evasion classes have a fair chance at archers since arrows miss a lot.

About mages, they are only overpowered because casting speed and Bsps, everyone knows it, its not even an argument really.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play a class with entangle right?

Gladiator vs Silver Ranger
Gladiator entangled for 2 minutes... gets slaughtered while feebly attempting to chase the archer. Any class without a snare gets slaughtered by archers so its not balanced for all melee classes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why people like me try to reinforce the idea that this is a group-oriented game. SwS has no strength but can buff and entangle, nukers can deal damage but can't take damage, healers can heal but they can't kill people easily, etc. I agree in the Olympiad SRs would pwn everyone in mixed matches but in real PvP (to me that's seiges and clan warfare/KOS) teamwork is key, even more so to melee characters

[Taraza]

a good example is to have a SE/Prophet work together with a Destroyer. They could root the potential victim(s) and let the Destroyer go to work. Or even Tyrant and Destroyer, they work EXTREMELY well together because Tyrants have insane speed, cripple, and a stun.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
a good example is to have a SE/Prophet work together with a Destroyer. They could root the potential victim(s) and let the Destroyer go to work. Or even Tyrant and Destroyer, they work EXTREMELY well together because Tyrants have insane speed, cripple, and a stun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how you offer 2 vs 1 suggestions for how to defeat other classes.

I think any class should lose when taking on 2 other classes of equal level.

[Taraza]

I'm not saying 2 v 1, I'm saying let people ASSIST when they can. In seiges smart groups assist, does that mean they are 9 v 1?! NO. I'm just saying let people assist in killing. For all you know the SwS entangles the Destroyers target and then goes on to their own target. Try to stop misunderstanding me and saying I'm saying things I don't mean.

[Freakazoid]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why people like me try to reinforce the idea that this is a group-oriented game. SwS has no strength but can buff and entangle, nukers can deal damage but can't take damage, healers can heal but they can't kill people easily, etc. I agree in the Olympiad SRs would pwn everyone in mixed matches but in real PvP (to me that's seiges and clan warfare/KOS) teamwork is key, even more so to melee characters

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL... you run around here like presenting a completely new idea. Every half decent PvP group i know does select a main targetter. Every half decent ranged group will always wipe the floor with a melee group - as long as this hold true there is absolutly no point to argue about anything being balanced. Ofc you can create absurd scenarios with utterly stupid enemies where a melee group could win (like nobody of the ranged group is assisting and everybody standing still), but thats not going to happen in a real fight nor would it by any sort of fair comparison. And btw. melee running around with bows already defeats the purpose of being melee.

[Taraza]

lol, I give up on you ignorant ********. Try to help people play their class correctly and people naysay and say thats the wrong way. There is a reason I don't complain that much about melee and thats because they aren't that bad. Am I saying they are better than archer/nuker? no. I'm saying they have their place, they have a different style, and people are fools to expect melee to kill as fast as nuker/archers HOWEVER that alone does not make them bad at PvP. PvP is MORE than about killing.

[Haygole]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, I give up on you ignorant ********. Try to help people play their class correctly and people naysay and say thats the wrong way. There is a reason I don't complain that much about melee and thats because they aren't that bad. Am I saying they are better than archer/nuker? no. I'm saying they have their place, they have a different style, and people are fools to expect melee to kill as fast as nuker/archers HOWEVER that alone does not make them bad at PvP. PvP is MORE than about killing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not gonna call you names or anything, but I am going to say I don't agree at all with what you are presenting. It sounds great in theory yes, and I wish it really was more like how you present it in pvp, but its not. It just isn't. You CANT work together because you are all dead. Period. That's all there is to it.

Lets say I am a Destroyer and I have 5 other support classes to root or what have you this eveil mage group. Lets even say there are only 3 of them. This is a tiny pvp but just an example. Now, it doesn't even matter if they all get rooted. Because of their sheer power the 3 nukers could still work us as long as they assist. Nukers have the potential to cast at such ridiculous speeds that their DPS becomes absolutely ridiculous. It wouldn't matter if 2 normal melee attacks could kill them most of the time. Only in very very tight places do melees even get a chance to smack anything, and then usually only for a second or two.

If you have had different experiences in pvp then so be it. All I'm saying is that in every large scale pvp I've ever been in or seen its always nukers+archers that do 99% of the damage and killing. The only melees that add anything to the group are the BDs, SWS, etc. My main was a Destroyer, and I am excellent at my class. Ask anybody that has 1v1 me. I know the best things to do at the best times against every other class, imo. In mass pvp though, I'd be better off just going and getting a soda or something.

I WANT to believe you though. I WANT there to be a reason for every class in pvp and not just pve, mainly because that is more or less the reason for the game. All that needs to be said to prove otherwise is that any spot in a raid party or siege group or what have you that has a Glad/Tyrant/Destroyer etc and not a nuker has a wasted spot. I hate it, but its true.

[Taraza]

wow, hearing you say that as a Destroyer really depresses me :(. I got a Destroyer buddy who is almost lvl 70 and he does well against nukers. PROPERLY buffed he had 65+ SHs that would hit him for 800. PROPERLLY buffed he had 13K HP and 3k CP or whatever Destroyers have. By my math thats 16K life. Thats 20 nukes to bring that down. Now consider CP pots, Orcs can carry ridiculous amounts of Greater CP pots and Greater Healing pots. Also they live long enough for a healer to work well on them. With a low HP/pdef classes, like archers or nukers, once a healer see their HP going down its typically too late. However when a healer see an orcs HP start to dent they have a chance to target and start laying down heals. I'd say root is a Orcs worst enemy though, that is until we got uber ESs in C4 :)

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, hearing you say that as a Destroyer really depresses me :(. I got a Destroyer buddy who is almost lvl 70 and he does well against nukers. PROPERLY buffed he had 65+ SHs that would hit him for 800. PROPERLLY buffed he had 13K HP and 3k CP or whatever Destroyers have. By my math thats 16K life. Thats 20 nukes to bring that down. Now consider CP pots, Orcs can carry ridiculous amounts of Greater CP pots and Greater Healing pots. Also they live long enough for a healer to work well on them. With a low HP/pdef classes, like archers or nukers, once a healer see their HP going down its typically too late. However when a healer see an orcs HP start to dent they have a chance to target and start laying down heals. I'd say root is a Orcs worst enemy though, that is until we got uber ESs in C4 :)

[/ QUOTE ]

So this properly buffed destroyer (which means he has however many other characters assisting him) can take on a lvl 65+ (5 levels lower) spellhowler and stands a reasonable chance.

Wow, you've totally convinced me. That is incredibly balanced!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that melees need to have the same DPS as the mages. They just need to be able to a. survive the mage dps (either by toning down mages or upping m.def/p.def) and b. need a way of doing significant damage to mages when they get the chance. Mages and Archers don't take that much damage from melees as it is. The mage p.def to melee p.attk ratio is far better then the melee m.def to mage m.attk ratio.

You can continue name calling and hiding behind your 'I'm misunderstood' defense but I understand you completely. I just don't think you're right and you keep using weak/obscure examples.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is suggesting that melees need to have the same DPS as the mages. They just need to be able to a. survive the mage dps (either by toning down mages or upping m.def/p.def) and b. need a way of doing significant damage to mages when they get the chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of 20 nukes to down a Destroyer that can drop that mage in 3 hits don't you understand here?! Maybe I just don't understand you, not that you misunderstand me

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is suggesting that melees need to have the same DPS as the mages. They just need to be able to a. survive the mage dps (either by toning down mages or upping m.def/p.def) and b. need a way of doing significant damage to mages when they get the chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of 20 nukes to down a Destroyer that can drop that mage in 3 hits don't you understand here?! Maybe I just don't understand you, not that you misunderstand me

[/ QUOTE ]


You throw out a 'properly' buffed destroyer vs a 5 level lower probably-rooted mage. I don't really think that is a great example of why melee isn't underpowered. You're suggesting at the very least a 2 on 1 fight if not more.

[Haygole]

Your points are well taken, but I can't remember the last time I only had 1 level 65 nuking me. I want to believe as much as you, keep trying to make me believe! I love you for trying.


Why can't I make this work lol (www.clanexiles.com/movies/dionsiege.zip)

If you watch this movie you will see a good example of what I'm talking about. In the big open field pvp you will see that melees do squat but die. In the castle they at least get to smack the nukers some.

I suck at the internet.... T.T

[Taraza]

*sigh* this a GROUP GAME. Almost HALF the classes are support oriented (OL, WC, Prophet, Bishop, EE, SE, SwS, BD, and to an extent you could say tanks and Dwarves and even Summoners). To suggest balance WITHOUT taking into account proper buffs is ridiculous. To say a Destroyer needs buffs to drop a mage is not saying anything about balance, because other classes have to be in their too. Healers cannot really help nukers that much because they die too fast most often to even get targetted and healed whereas a Destroyer has a chance to get heals and carry A LOT of CP pots. Half the classes in the game ARE NOT FILLER, they serve a purpose and balance to the damage dealers (efficient killers, because thats all they can do) is it.

[Taraza]

the link is messed up, for some reason it has lineage2.com before what you meant to link to. Im DLing right now though

[Haygole]

Sorry Im so crappy at forums and links and stuff. I hope you like the video anyway.


In PvE I would say that every class in L2 has a place. Sure people have their ideas of the "perfect group" and what not, but almost any class can have a great time pve. I certainly won't argue that with you.

Its just my position that the common melee character can have all the support in the world and still get their butts kicked by a handful of nukers. The support that nukers can get from buffs and tatts and gear just goes way beyond what we as melees can get.

The potion thing... Well, yes you can go potion crazy. In that video you will see almost everyone doing just that. Its a great idea to improve your life span of course, but I still don't think there is any good argument out there as to why nukers can cast so dern fast.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
*sigh* this a GROUP GAME. Almost HALF the classes are support oriented (OL, WC, Prophet, Bishop, EE, SE, SwS, BD, and to an extent you could say tanks and Dwarves and even Summoners). To suggest balance WITHOUT taking into account proper buffs is ridiculous. To say a Destroyer needs buffs to drop a mage is not saying anything about balance, because other classes have to be in their too. Healers cannot really help nukers that much because they die too fast most often to even get targetted and healed whereas a Destroyer has a chance to get heals and carry A LOT of CP pots. Half the classes in the game ARE NOT FILLER, they serve a purpose and balance to the damage dealers (efficient killers, because thats all they can do) is it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you factor in buffs and healers for one side then you must factor them in for the other as well. Your assumptions of fully buffed melees taking on a single unbuffed mage/archer that's five levels lower is a pointless example that proves nothing.

A 1v1 battle is a good way of determining balance and is now supported by the developers with thier addition of the Olympiad. It also seems that they acknowledge the imbalances that everyone has mentioned due to the limitations they impose upon the competition.

If you think mages are pure/efficient killers, you're wrong.
Mages are great at crowd control in addition to damage. They have excellent range and although their p.def is lower then other classes, it is not so low as to be a huge detriment when their other skills are taken into account. Gladiators/Destroyers/Tyrants are much closer to pure damage dealers as far as the skills available to them.

You can continue to sigh and moan but you haven't had one decent example of why melee isn't extremely underpowered in comparison to ranged damage in pvp yet.

My suggestion still stands that all classes need passive magic defense in the same way that all classes receive armor masteries.

M. Attack should be about as easy to raise as P.attk and as effective.

Melee Damage Dealers should have a higher dps then mages/archers to offset the time they spend moving to targets.

Tanks should have the highest p.def and m.def in the game if they are really expected to 'tank' all damage.

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
M. Attack should be about as easy to raise as P.attk and as effective.

[/ QUOTE ] This would cause more problems than you realize, as the Power of spells is multiplied by the square root of MAtk to determine damage...for MAtk to be "as effective" as PAtk, it would need to be more linear, which would require a complete overhaul of the entire magic system or magic would become more crazy than a nuker's wettest dream.

Extra magic defense on assassin-classes, I like--not too much, but a little edge. Touching MAtk is a big mistake.

Try giving casting speed a logarithmic progression starting from a respectable constant. I think you'd be impressed with the results.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
Your points are well taken, but I can't remember the last time I only had 1 level 65 nuking me. I want to believe as much as you, keep trying to make me believe! I love you for trying.


<a href="www.clanexiles.com/movies/dionsiege.zip" target="_blank">Why can't I make this work lol</a>

If you watch this movie you will see a good example of what I'm talking about. In the big open field pvp you will see that melees do squat but die. In the castle they at least get to smack the nukers some.

I suck at the internet.... T.T

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a great video but the only thing I ever saw melee doing was running AWAY, as in the WRONG way lol. Not once did I see an organized melee rush. I don't think its game design that makes melee bad in PvP, its people not playing them correctly. Melee can't solo mobs, so why do I see melee trying to solo people in PvP? Do melee run away from mobs? no So why do I see them running away from the enemy. They aren't playing the class correctly. If at a seige and there is no chance for a rush then yes, melee aren't that useful in them circumstances. However if you group them up and rush collectively with archers and mages behind them they roll over enemies, or die simply because they couldn't take on the force. People waste too much time in seiges running away and coming back, its either you can kill the enemy or not. And if not then mass up and prepare a rush. In that video EVERYONE was scattered, it was ridiculous. Your enemy had NO plan apparently and no strategy.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
M. Attack should be about as easy to raise as P.attk and as effective.

[/ QUOTE ] This would cause more problems than you realize, as the Power of spells is multiplied by the square root of MAtk to determine damage...for MAtk to be "as effective" as PAtk, it would need to be more linear, which would require a complete overhaul of the entire magic system or magic would become more crazy than a nuker's wettest dream.

Extra magic defense on assassin-classes, I like--not too much, but a little edge. Touching MAtk is a big mistake.

Try giving casting speed a logarithmic progression starting from a respectable constant. I think you'd be impressed with the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my mistake. I actually meant m.attk speed and p.attk speed.

Though your suggestion is true and I'm not going to claim to know the actual formulas off the top of my head although I'm sure I could look them up. The point I was trying to make is that as levels progress, the damage done by mages and archers ramps up considerably over their melee counterparts for no discernable reason. Their defensive stats and skills are not that much worse (and quite often better in effect) then the melee damage dealers.

If a dagger/glad/destroyer could sleep, silence or stun their opponent then I would find the situation to be closer to balanced (although ranged would still have an advantage) but as it stands the melee damage dealers have no real skills to control a fight other then to attempt to spam more damage. It doesn't help that even spamming their specials that they have a significantly lower DPS then their ranged counterparts that can stand directly in front of them and defeat them simply by out damaging them.

[Haygole]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your points are well taken, but I can't remember the last time I only had 1 level 65 nuking me. I want to believe as much as you, keep trying to make me believe! I love you for trying.


<a href="www.clanexiles.com/movies/dionsiege.zip" target="_blank">Why can't I make this work lol</a>

If you watch this movie you will see a good example of what I'm talking about. In the big open field pvp you will see that melees do squat but die. In the castle they at least get to smack the nukers some.

I suck at the internet.... T.T

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a great video but the only thing I ever saw melee doing was running AWAY, as in the WRONG way lol. Not once did I see an organized melee rush. I don't think its game design that makes melee bad in PvP, its people not playing them correctly. Melee can't solo mobs, so why do I see melee trying to solo people in PvP? Do melee run away from mobs? no So why do I see them running away from the enemy. They aren't playing the class correctly. If at a seige and there is no chance for a rush then yes, melee aren't that useful in them circumstances. However if you group them up and rush collectively with archers and mages behind them they roll over enemies, or die simply because they couldn't take on the force. People waste too much time in seiges running away and coming back, its either you can kill the enemy or not. And if not then mass up and prepare a rush. In that video EVERYONE was scattered, it was ridiculous. Your enemy had NO plan apparently and no strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]


I can buy that. I'm not sure there are even enough melee players at high enough level to make a real rush.

Notice the melees did have alot more participation once it was in the throne room. I hear that the new castle has alot more choke points, so melees could find themselves in a more important role at least there.

[Haygole]

I want to add one more thing before I back off for a while. As far as skills and melees go, as a Destroyer with a OEd/focus 2h sword I never bothered to use my "skills" because as of C3 they take too long and do much less than a possible crit would. I know its changing in C4, so this could change.

I always felt kinda cheated when I would get close enough to use a "fatal" strike only to do a sad little squirt of damage. All it has going for it is hitting evasion classes. Ok, I'm done with this for now. Hopefully nobody will say anything to stir me up for a few days.

I do really appreciate all the input people are giving. Its stayed pretty civil in here.


<nerf casting speed now!!!>

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
If a dagger/glad/destroyer could sleep, silence or stun their opponent then I would find the situation to be closer to balanced

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
If a glad/destroyer could stun their opponent then I would find the situation to be closer to balanced

[/ QUOTE ] Psst...be careful in your examples, it makes it harder to make a point if the facts (http://www.lineage2.com/guide/race_human_skill.html?my_class=human_gladiator) don't pan out (http://www.lineage2.com/guide/race_orc_skill.html?my_class=orc_destroyer). You have a good point in there, but it's running away from you ;)

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a dagger/glad/destroyer could sleep, silence or stun their opponent then I would find the situation to be closer to balanced

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
If a glad/destroyer could stun their opponent then I would find the situation to be closer to balanced

[/ QUOTE ] Psst...be careful in your examples, it makes it harder to make a point if the facts (http://www.lineage2.com/guide/race_human_skill.html?my_class=human_gladiator) don't pan out (http://www.lineage2.com/guide/race_orc_skill.html?my_class=orc_destroyer). You have a good point in there, but it's running away from you ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Glads and Destroyers both can't stun with their primary damage dealing weapon. Its the equivalent of telling mages they can cast sleep but only if they equip a dagger.

Yes, they have a stun which has a low land rate and a high chance to be cancelled upon taking damage. I was thinking more about the dagger at the moment I typed that out though.

I still think that the melee damage dealers would be greatly benefited by some sort of crowd control ability that would function like sleep but could by a different name such as 'intimidate' or something just to give them a bit more crowd controlling capabilities to allow them to more effectively compete with a mage for spots in parties. Their stun should be based on their primary weapon as well. Two handed sword for the destroyers and duals for the gladiator, the weapon requirements on these skills is just an additional hampering of the melee classes that doesn't happen to nukers or archers.

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
Glads and Destroyers both can't stun with their primary damage dealing weapon. Its the equivalent of telling mages they can cast sleep but only if they equip a dagger.

[/ QUOTE ] At which point all mages begin carrying a dagger that's a grade below, just to use to incapacite problem opponents. I know some Gladiators carry an NG blunt and a macro ;)

Still a good point you make, just the details again.

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]
I know some Gladiators carry an NG blunt and a macro

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I use that hammer on you? :eek:

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I use that hammer on you? :eek:

[/ QUOTE ] Probably. Blows to the head can be a little hard to remember clearly.

(I find it amusing you used the "shocked" smiley, given the topic at hand :p)

[Ramadear]

I think melee characters should get passive resist elements and archery passives. Or to add on to OP idea (which is something present in Guild Wars) Light armor should have passive elemental resistance and Heavy armor should have passive archery resistance. It wouldn't be a bad start to improve melee characters.

[Torg]

The PVE game can give a great insight into why the PVP game is so off.

A melee damage dealer/tank cannot effectively solo anything. The damage taken from mobs takes a huge portion of their HP even if they're spamming every single special attack that they may have. Even Tanks have trouble against magic casting mobs because their m.def is not nearly as high as their p.def.

Mages and Archers don't have this problem because their damage scales up as they level to match the mobs. P.attk/Attack Speed/P.def/M.def does not scale up in the same fashion.

Both groups have both HP and MP. Melees just use their HP and their MP far less effiicently. If melee specials are going to do significantly less damage (due to either lower attack power or miss rate) then they should be able to be used far more often and account for a smaller percentage of the total MP bar.

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
A melee damage dealer/tank cannot effectively solo anything. The damage taken from mobs takes a huge portion of their HP even if they're spamming every single special attack that they may have.

[/ QUOTE ] Now I wish my dagger was higher-level...if that problem does exist, you're correct that it's symptomatic of a greater problem.

[Ramadear]

[ QUOTE ]
The PVE game can give a great insight into why the PVP game is so off.

A melee damage dealer/tank cannot effectively solo anything. The damage taken from mobs takes a huge portion of their HP even if they're spamming every single special attack that they may have. Even Tanks have trouble against magic casting mobs because their m.def is not nearly as high as their p.def.

Mages and Archers don't have this problem because their damage scales up as they level to match the mobs. P.attk/Attack Speed/P.def/M.def does not scale up in the same fashion.

Both groups have both HP and MP. Melees just use their HP and their MP far less effiicently. If melee specials are going to do significantly less damage (due to either lower attack power or miss rate) then they should be able to be used far more often and account for a smaller percentage of the total MP bar.

[/ QUOTE ]

True...very true and while we are on the subject of melee vs mobs. Its beyond my understand why ncsoft implemented physical resistant mobs. Like melee characters didn't have it hard enough. Once again I'll post a quote from ign.com preview of spellborn.

"So combat is skill-based instead of gear-based. In the average gear-based MMO, emphasizing armor and weapons can put melee characters at a disadvantage. They have to account for damage absorption as well as damage output, whereas a caster can focus on just damage. The net effect is that the melee player becomes not particularly great in either category, while the caster gets to excel at offense and blast away mobs at his or her leisure (or restoration, if you're a healer). Instead, CoS moves more in the direction of Guild Wars, where the spells you choose and the way you use those spells is what makes the difference between success and death."

Whats summarized there is what melee characters are experiencing in Lineage II today. While its easy for the devs to implement some sort of melee vs range balancing, the question remains will they ever attempt to do so? Its funny to see in the patch notes that center recently translated that the devs were "balancing skills" to make them fair, but they have yet to address the imbalance between melee and ranged characters.

[Torqq]

The biggest problem with game balance comes from high level parties will all the buffs. Mages and archers in these parties become way too powerful, to the point where any non ranged class can't even get close without dying in 3 seconds.

In regular clan war and open PVP fights this is the case. It's even worse in sieges where a non ranged class dare not step out front for fear of getting hit with 20 arrows, each doing 2-3.5k crits, or getting critted by 2 mages for a total of 10k damage. This is broken.

Fully buffed mage and archer parties are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too strong, and need fixing fast. They do the most damage, by a large margin and they have 900 range. The non ranged DDs simply don't have enough speed or durability to get close enough to take 1 swing, and the ones lucky enough to usually get one swing or special in before the target simply moves away.

Stun doesn't work as it should in this game. For one, ranged classes should NOT get stun skills (stun shot), second, because of their massive damage in a single attack and less frequent attacks than melee attacks and specials, archers and mages don't knock people out of stun as often as melee DDs do. Archers and nukers shoudlnt get stun, and they should be VERY VERY prone to getting stunned, and stun should last a fixed amount of time and the reuse time on stun skills should be longer than then duration.

As I said 100++++ times, there's a reason everyone, and I mean 99.9999999% of all players, are rerolling nukers or archers, or picking them as subclasses. NCsoft can confirm as can anyone who plays the game enough.

Check any competent clan and you'll see that's it composed of almost all archer and nuker DD class. Not Gladiators, tanks, daggers, orcs, and dwarves. These classes are TERRIBLE DDs because of the above problems.

[Torqq]

I've played every MMO out there, and not one of them has this type of play balance problem. And this is unacceptable for a game with NO character customization.

[Torg]

I think many of the people that continue to play the melee damage dealers is because they've put so much time into the character that its coming down to developer intervention, pve only or quitting.

Some of them just really want to play a melee character and don't want to jump onto the bandwagon even though they know that they're underpowered. The biggest problem that I see is that unless you have a clan supporting you, you have the same troubles that are experienced by some of the less desirable buffing/healing classes. Bishops, overlords and elven elders come to mind.

[Kruken]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of them just really want to play a melee character and don't want to jump onto the bandwagon even though they know that they're underpowered. The biggest problem that I see is that unless you have a clan supporting you, you have the same troubles that are experienced by some of the less desirable buffing/healing classes. Bishops, overlords and elven elders come to mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true and if there were no open pvp in this game we would not be having this discussion, Since every class has a main job function against pve.

If you balanced it out just for pvp then the pve portion of the game would really be out of wack.

[dodgeyy]

I would just like to say some think about Melee Classes ever Melee class can easy pick up a bow and use it Vs Nukers/Archers but when it comes down to not having a bow and the only weapions u have is ur Sword or Duels/Daggers We Melee's Stand No Chance of even getting Close to them Unless u slow down the archers/or u can get to the Nuker in time to Cancel He spells Take me as an a Exple Am a BD i wear Dex tats So i can Catch up to them makeing my running and atk spd super fast if i can get to them b4 they totaly Nuke me or an Archer Crits Hits me tons of times Am dead but if i can get to them b4 they Do that they Stand no chance or killing me but if i had a Carnage Bow it would be a fair fight for the Melee Vs Archer but if i went agaist a Nuker vs melee The Melee Would win Since a Bow Crits Hits alot more often than Swords Duel's/Daggers do Yes Melee Classes Do have the Disarvadge VS Nukers/Archers But Give any Melee Class Longer Shooting rage or some Decent Skills in Bow's The Melee Class Would stand a Chance for once

Here Let me prove my point in C4 pvp Melee Classes Will lose there chance in useing bows to kill any archer or mage
here take a read of this post
Storm Screamer Post (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=502477&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)

[Maitreya]

Pfft!

People think they know a mage because they saw them in an arena, and they think they are easy to level because they played one on PTS with multiplied xp and sp. The easiest mage to level is maybe a spellhowler, but other than that...I don't think they are so easy.

Spellhowler = Good PvE and OK PvP
Sorceror = Average PvE and Pretty good PvP
Spellsinger = Crappy PvE and Great PvP

The balance is also in the levels. Where a Spellsinger takes a while to level if they don't have a dedicated recharger and buffs, yada yada yada...you shouldn't need this if we were balanced.

I have played Spellsingers before they were thought to be great. At the time Sorcerors and SH were thought to be kings. When I started the only LE I saw being created were bow and dagger users!

When you are pre lvl 20 as a fighter you just pop some heal pots and keep going. C3 made this even eaiser with free pots and SS. A mage HAS to sit down to regen...takes long *** boring time.

I have probally logged somewhere close to 2000 hours in this game and still haven't hit B grade! Pretty crazy eh? Esspecially for these 'uber' mages everyone speaks of. The only mages I have seen level fast are those that have purchased their adena online and can afford spamming bsps and getting top weapons.

So whatever...this dead horse has been beaten, buried, beaten, 30% rezed, beaten buried, poisened, beaten, buried, deleveled, and buried...and yet is still kept alive by people who can't see weaknesses with mages. I am just really tired of these posts now. Mages have been nerfed in C4...what the hell did you want a stupid mistake like they did with daggers? You people make me sick!

[Haygole]

I have nothing but respect for anyone's opinion as long as they are willing to take part in a discussion and not just name calling and such. I think its important for people on both sides and the middle to talk things over, and to say that just because its been talked about alot already is reason to stop talking about it is a ridiculous thing to say.


I think we all know that everything we say here is worthless. Korea does the code, and Korea doesn't care. Talking about this is no different than anything else that people kill time on boards talking about. If you are tired of these threads, don't read them I guess.

A few posts up someone brought up the point that alancing pvp would likely mess up pve balance. I can totaly see this point. Many of the things that I think would help the pvp balance would be a big nerf in the pve side of things for mages. It is a delicate balance yes. I still say that lowering casting speed and leaving damage alone would do wonders. Its the most fair suggestion I have read to date on this whole issue.

[Darian_Kain]

actually if you wanna balance it out. Look at things as a triangle....



Fighters
Mages
Scouts

Now lets see what form each would balance out and make people happy

Fighters take out scouts,
scouts take out mages,
mages take out fighters.

Would that be aggreeable?

However the one problem with this is that now classes are more diversified.

You have buffers, party assistant fighters, and healers. How would you fit them into that triangle?

Im going to let you guys think on that.

[Maitreya]

Haygole nice video! What rez you play at man? Also was that someone on Teamspeak talking about not being able to land hamstring or something because it was hilarious! BTW I was happy to see only a few SpS...most were Spellhowlers. :)

Long post, but you asked for it!

The reason why I don't really give much constructive thoughts to these threads anymore is because I always get the same response to my posts. "What the hell do you know about PvP, your low level?! Your just a FOTM Spellsinger why should be belive you?" (WHICH I AM NOT **** IT) Or something as simple as "you don't know what your talking about noob!" So I will try one last time to state my points.

I really like my mage, and I have played him for a LONGGG time! The last thing I would want is a useless character after many many many hours of effort put into him. Don't you see that reducing casting speed also effects PvE very very much! Being a spellsinger my casting speed is my savior...and many times that of my group too. "Sleep that mob hurry hurry hurry", I always hear. I feel somewhat releved when we get a second sleeper in the group. Nerfing speed would practiacally make a Spellsinger useless...esspecially in PvE where they would pick another class such as sorceror that does more damage, or a SH which can manage MP with B2M and have top damage!

I never picked my character thinking to myself that I wanna just pwn people and be uber. I didn't know what I was getting into. All I know is that MP management for a SpS creates lots of Downtime! I know about Clear Mind and Mana Regeneration, but those are practically a joke! Clear Mind just makes me take longer to get to the next mob and adds like 1MP per tic so it seems like that I am actually regening faster. Mana Regeneration I can practically see no difference. :confused:

I think that SH are very powerful. I must watch out for them and archers on the battle field. A SH can drop me really fast with Death Spike and Hurricane or whatever. Not to mention they can silence me! Archers are ranged, faster, and do lots of damage to robes...even with a shield...so they are very worthy apponents. When a melee catches you by supprise or one or two start wailing on you, you are practically guarenteed dead!

I hear people (melee users) state all the time that mages are easy to level also! I kid you not...they are NOT! MP regen is our bane, esspecially that of a Spellsinger. Say what you wish...I have played a Spellsinger for over a year...I know what the hell I am doing. The only option is a EE or SE with regen and then in a group you are ok and don't have to leach XP while the fighters keep going.

I have also noticed that the importance of armor compaired to jewels is much greater in this game. There are many people that skip over C grade jewels and maybe even B grade...and just keep their top D grade. Then they say that mages do too much damage. I would like to see a level 60 still leveling in brig and if this would be so, they would say healers with duals are overpowered!

C4 brings bonuses to jewels for A and S grade. Reducing such things as sleep! AF was nerfed for the mages that use it. Sleep cannot be used to resleep a already slept target, and cancels effects have been reduced. I myself think this is a good enough nerf. For AF shouldn't be used as a main attack, and cancel shouldn't cancel EVERY buff, and you shouldn't be able to put to sleep someone that is already slept.

Many melee are geared towards PvE and or Group/support type classes. Destroyers, Monks, and Gladiators are usually an exception though. Daggers I still find to be very dangerous!

Magic should be the most powerful force in the game. Mages in fantasy were always known for their great power and being able to defeate almost any foe. Mages do drop fast! We are the first targeted on a seige field, and for a very good reason too. I know we do much damage, but deep down we are very frail and weak. You have to just outwit us and not rely on clicking and spamming F keys. Our defense is highly offensive. We must do damage to kill our opponent before they get within arms reach. For a melee to 1v1 a mage is eaither pure insanity or a suicide wish....if they win it is usually based on skill, level, and gear..or luck!

I want those to know that a melee rush into a room full of mages will have the mages cowering in fear. For when their are so many in such a small space, the mages don't have that buffer of space between them.

What it seems like to me is, people want this game to be balanced like rock, paper, scissors! That whoever can have a better healer, or spam their keys faster wins. If this were so, there would be even less diversity in an already uniform game. Then the game would be boring and their would be no point to picking a class. Everybody would pick the cheapest class to level, and/or a class that looks cool.

I could agree that maybe jewels should add a bit more resistance to magic. OR maybe people should just actually upgrade thier jewels. When my clan leader finally upgraded from elven jewels to black ore, I could DEFINATELY tell the difference. He was actually hard to take down. Actually he can beat me almost all the time. Granted now he is like 5 levels higher than me, but I think I have only beaten him once out of many of our duels.

I do agree that I have seen Necromancers in C4 and think they are pretty over powered. Spellhowlers are also very very strong. Actually I think that you will probally see a lot of SH and Necromancers being rerolled in C4, and that is too bad. But I am glad that Spellsingers had short popularity and people usually gave up on them, or decided to go a SH.

I still think that certain jewel sets would be great if they provided extra resistance from water, wind, fire..ect. attacks so that it would add a bit more strategy and customization to the setups. Instead of everyone just going for top m.def ratings.

This is my 2 cents, and I would keep going..but I don't want to make your eyes bloody by writting a book. I hope people can relize where I am comming from and not think, oh it is just another mage saying they aren't overpowered. But like I said, I KNOW my class...more than someone that plays a different class, and these are the truths that I have came to relize during my stay in Aden, traveling the world as a wondering Spellsinger.

[MuadDib]

Hey all, just a note. In this game, 1v1 pvp is very important. Self buffed PVP is very important. Sure, grouping is great, but the only melee classes that stand even a halfway decent chance against any ranged character are those who can themselves do ranged attacks (or slow their opponents from afar). My suggestion would allow classes that arent lucky enough to have such ranged options (ie warlords, destroyers, gladi's (whose ranged attack kinda sucks), etc) at least a chance of catching up and landing a special or 2 on the ranged class.

Sure, lots of people will say that all chars should have a backup bow...what about Long Shot? Archer classes shoot over longer distances than melee chars with bows, do more damage, and have higher accuracy. Also, not everyone can afford 2 weps. Also, there is a chance of dropping your non-equipped wep upon death, and that would suck. Also, ranged characters dont have to have a "backup melee" wep, even if they allow a melee class to come close, they can still shoot away (a silly concept imo). Mass PVP is infinately more complex than 1v1 pvp, as there are infinate scenarios (higher lvl buffs on one side, healers, party coordination, distractions, etc) whereas in 1v1 pvp the imbalence truly shows. If an archer fully 10 levels under me can 1v1 me and kill me (not in an arena where they are easy to catch mind you) without me being able to close to range, there is something wrong. Archers can kite over infinate distance because their run speed is so high, and as long as they dont accidentally run into aggro mobs or other players. I can truck my *** after those archers forever and never be able to land a single melee hit. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I fail to see how playstyle affects run speed. I'm open to suggestions as far as making myself a better player, so let me know if I am doing something clearly wrong. It doesnt matter what my pdef or total life is, barring exceptional circumstances I simply cannot catch an archer in a self buffed 1v1.

/edited for 2:45 am typoes

[Torg]

Fighters cannot solo as efficiently as Mages. This is taking into account that the mages have to rest to regenerate their mana. At lower level the cost of HP pots is manageable but at higher levels it quickly becomes a greater healing pot per mob affair. That's while spamming SS and using top grade gear.

I've never seen a party kick out an out of mana nuker. So the leeching is expected although I've seen some people really abuse this and want to sit until they're absolutely full again.

The argument of "Magic should be strong because its Magic" isn't really an argument and cannot be defended. I don't care what literature you want to pull out because none of it pertains to this game.

The argument of "They shouldn't be able to 1v1 beat me because I'm a mage" is pretty lame as well and admits that the mages are overpowered but they like being able to pad their pvp stats with easy kills.

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]


The argument of "They shouldn't be able to 1v1 beat me because I'm a mage" is pretty lame as well and admits that the mages are overpowered but they like being able to pad their pvp stats with easy kills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I take issue with this statement as it makes as much of an assumption regarding what the balance "shouldn't" be as much as what the original statment says it "should" be.

many people insist that there is no balance because a variety of classes can't 1v1.

That is assuming that people should be able to 1v1.

Furthermore, I really believe that the developers want there to be a disparity between ranged and melee (not to mention buffers, healers etc).

They know what they are creating. It's not like they are just making a stat and then saying "done". They do have in-house testers.

It seems that, at the moment, the developers want ranged combatants to be the damage dealers and the other classes "not so much".

People assume that melee should be a damage dealer. It seems obvious from the evidence that the develpers see them as support for the ranged. I know that is a bold statement to make but it does make sense.

As Torq just put it...

[ QUOTE ]
The argument of "Magic should be strong because its Magic" isn't really an argument and cannot be defended. I don't care what literature you want to pull out because none of it pertains to this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. But that also says that other ideas about what a melee class should/shouldn't be need to be "rethought" as we are dealing with how "this game" views them.

So, people show quite a bit of evidence regarding melee classes not being able to keep up with their Archer/Mage bretheren.

Therefore... I feel that the conclusion to be drawn is that they are not supposed to be the "real damage dealers". That their purpose is to be meat shields, annoyances and effective in groups toward the ranged classes but again.. that that they are NOT the damage dealers.

I know.. pretty wild huh? Not fair, not right... sky is falling statment.

But what if this is right? What if the devlopers have a completely different idea as to what a melee is really supposed to be.

Kind of makes things make more sense doesn't it? I know if blows my mind.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The argument of "They shouldn't be able to 1v1 beat me because I'm a mage" is pretty lame as well and admits that the mages are overpowered but they like being able to pad their pvp stats with easy kills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I take issue with this statement as it makes as much of an assumption regarding what the balance "shouldn't" be as much as what the original statment says it "should" be.

many people insist that there is no balance because a variety of classes can't 1v1.

That is assuming that people should be able to 1v1.

Furthermore, I really believe that the developers want there to be a disparity between ranged and melee (not to mention buffers, healers etc).

They know what they are creating. It's not like they are just making a stat and then saying "done". They do have in-house testers.

It seems that, at the moment, the developers want ranged combatants to be the damage dealers and the other classes "not so much".

People assume that melee should be a damage dealer. It seems obvious from the evidence that the develpers see them as support for the ranged. I know that is a bold statement to make but it does make sense.

As Torq just put it...

[ QUOTE ]
The argument of "Magic should be strong because its Magic" isn't really an argument and cannot be defended. I don't care what literature you want to pull out because none of it pertains to this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. But that also says that other ideas about what a melee class should/shouldn't be need to be "rethought" as we are dealing with how "this game" views them.

So, people show quite a bit of evidence regarding melee classes not being able to keep up with their Archer/Mage bretheren.

Therefore... I feel that the conclusion to be drawn is that they are not supposed to be the "real damage dealers". That their purpose is to be meat shields, annoyances and effective in groups toward the ranged classes but again.. that that they are NOT the damage dealers.

I know.. pretty wild huh? Not fair, not right... sky is falling statment.

But what if this is right? What if the devlopers have a completely different idea as to what a melee is really supposed to be.

Kind of makes things make more sense doesn't it? I know if blows my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

The game is now based around 1v1 pvp based upon the C4 Olympiad expansion.

But I concede that the developers may have set out to make a game that is devoted to promoting the ranged over the non-ranged and that eveyone should just learn that unless they play a nuker/necro/archer that they're simply there to take one for the team.

I guess we can now link this directly to the 'Reroll or Quit' thread as well.

[Sovrath]

True... but the game is based against "higher" lvl players for 1v1.

I wonder how much more balanced the Olympiad is with some of the changes such as: I hear no blessed shots, I don't know if silence can be used, can healing potions be used (I made a post about this in PTS area but no one has answered yet).

Originally I thought it was one class against same class but now that is apparently is not the case?

[Haygole]

As all know, I am strongly on the nerf nuker side of the house, but I can admitt that Sovrath makes probably the best point yet. It is how it is because this is how it is. lol Wacky, but its totally true. All of my friends in Korea saw the writing on the wall a long long time ago and everyone rerolled nukers/archers. It just took a little longer for it to hit here.


Remember when you saw somebody alot higher than you and thought they were uber regardless of class? That just isn't the case anymore. I almost look at A grade melees (tanks particularly) with pitty. I know they stuck with it because they are gluttons for punishment or just simply want to play their calss. They likely just want to keep their toon, hit 75, and sub something "usefull."

It seems like alot of nuker players think that we all want to make their characters dramatically worse. I for one do not whatsoever. I want everyone that loads up the game to be excited about the character they play. Everybody should feel like they have a place, yes even you EEs. Too many people right now are just totally left out in the cold or 6 feet deep in alot of the main aspects of the game. It has little to nothing to do with skill either. That just isn't a good argument to make.

The idea that things are how they are is the best and the intended way isn't 100% unsinkable though. Like I argues earlier, if you put some new pvp changes on the pts and let people really work at them you would soon find out what is overpowered and what is a good idea. People are ALWAYS going to find the best way to play their characters. It takes time though, and the test server imo is an absolute joke as far as "testing" goes. PTS in Korea may be a different thing.

Personally I liked how DAoC does their test server. They seem to be willing to try almost anything on it to see if it could make the game better. After all, what can it hurt on a test server?


The plain facts that can't be argued with is that if anybody that knew anything about the game sat down and started playting today with the intention of being meaningfully involved in pvp, they would not even consider most every class in this game. That is a sad state of affairs. I love you all though. <hug> If you want to play a mage and defend your position so be it. At least you can kick my *** in game too.

[bekkar]

I'm amazed. This thread seems to be turning insightful and constructive. :eek:

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm amazed. This thread seems to be turning insightful and constructive. :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens!!! :cool:

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm amazed. This thread seems to be turning insightful and constructive. :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens!!! :cool:

[/ QUOTE ]

Just seems the discussion has matured to the point that its evident that its not balanced and both sides are willing to admit that its not balanced.

Its now a matter of if people want to play a game where certain classes are meant to pad pvp counts and sit in the shadow of more efficient/powerful classes by virtue of game design.

The conversation has come down to the solution presented elsewhere on the forums that people seeking to accomplish pvp feats should play a nuker/necro/archer or find another game to play.

It just took a long time to get people to stop defending the position and finally just admit that certain classes have distinct advantages that cannot necessarily be overcome by levelling, skill or gear.

[Maitreya]

I see how people say that 1v1 PvP matters, but not any meaningful 1v1 anyway. I myself do not know of the olympiad, but I was under the impression also that it was the same classes versus the other same class.

If you just want to pwn people, that is 1v1. Or protect yourself from somone (who is usually higher level) that is 1v1. I will give a meaningful example of PvP such as a castle seige:

There are tanks. They will last the longest. If your leader is a melee that can wear heavy armor they have an advantage because they will have a lot better chance of casting over the thrown room crystal.

In a group you are supposed to support each other, everyone should know by now that there is nothing great in Lineage 2 that you can do alone. So you have the healers to keep people alive. The truth is whoever has better heals and buffs will win. I actually think unbuffed characters are actually very balanced! If somone can slow a mage or archer for a melee to catch up and kill it effectively then they do their job. Melee are great in tight situations because they last longer and can get up close and take a beating. Not to mention what a devistating attack a stun is on a mage! When someone can stun me, I don't have a chance.

Ok healers can't really 1v1 anyone...well I have seen them before, but they aren't what you would call a super PvP class! Most melee have the purpose of PvE tanking. There are a few exceptions that people have mentioned before. Actually I think fighters are really cool! I was gonna be one before I picked a mage because I usually like the fighter style better. But I kinda wanted to be a Light Elf, and I didn't care for their fighter types.

I know you are melee, but above all you are fighters. You can use practically any weapons even without masteries and skills. I think using a bow is a good way to think out of the conformed box of skills that NCsoft gives people. Sure it is wrong that you are almost forced to switch to a weapon choice not technically for your class, but you actually do fairly well in PvP against ranged classes with it. It seems that is how this game was created...fair, no not exaclty...unfixable and making it unfun, I really don't think so.

Oh and to the poster that said healing pots get more expensive so fighters have down time too, you make a point but let me explain how you guys get it better! Even though more expensive, you have a choice not to have another person there for you, like a mage NEEDS an SE or EE to recharge them. I know at higher lvl pots are expensive, but my friend usually makes a trip to TI with his pole arm and kills spiders for skin and turns them in for high quality pots...these wouldn't save you in battle, but when he pops them when he has to rest, he sits for like 20 seconds! Creating less downtime and more fight time and in turn making him level faster.

I really don't think it is that bad, the balance issue! If there were no buffs you would see what I mean. The classes at its base are not overpowered, but there are a lot more buffs geared towards ranged and nukers that people usually get. The pvp in this game already doesn't require skill because it is based of off levels and items, so what you need is strategy. Ususally the strategy is to create an overwehlmig zerg and whatnot.

Until something changes this is the way it is. It isn't terrible. The main thing is to have fun! If you are not having fun, find a way that you can currently without hoping for a change in the game! Figure out a new strategy, focus your energy on something else like leveling a pet, PvEing, making adena, or figuring out a new strategy for PvP!

[Haygole]

I wonder if I had full +20 Boss Mob jewels what it would be like.... I wonder if you will be able to enchant those things.


Hmmm... I think I will start an Armor SA thread... lol

[Maitreya]

Yes you can enchant Boss Mob Jewels. And if they were enchanted +20 I would say you exploited the system...lol!

Not to mention you would be getting hit for like 1 damage or maybe 100 damage...lol!

[Haygole]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes you can enchant Boss Mob Jewels. And if they were enchanted +20 I would say you exploited the system...lol!

Not to mention you would be getting hit for like 1 damage or maybe 100 damage...lol!

[/ QUOTE ]


Excellent.... At least now I have a goal for C4! lol

[Ripit]

My first post maybe went too far in how I believe things can be evened out a bit. Basically I'm going to say again, have it so some skills overlap or can be learned through a quest. Let a melee character have the opportunity to learn some ranged attack skills. A Destroyer that can learn long shot with a bow, a mage that can learn blunt masteries ect. A learned skill will never be "as good" as the original class but it would make the game really interesting. Since we have no choices once we pick our profession as far as armor colors or making people have some individuallity in this game, making overlapping skills can make things creative. Don't keep giving us this, then we nerf it and give somebody that, lets just give some equal opportunities to learn other skills so one class can fight back against another. :)

[Ventx]

Some people here in this thread think it's OK for melee's to have to switch to range to fight range. You shouldn't have to pace your game to another type of fighters game, you'll usually lose anyway then. The object should be closing the distance, not trying to overcome the distance by shooting your weaker range weapon.

Everyone will see differences as everyone becomes either a Ranged class or a summoner (summoner is technically range because they can attack with a summon without being in danger).
I found it sickening when I started playing my Necromancer, I was getting as much experience an hour that I was with my PW in a day. Not only that, but I find a Necromancer far more economically friendly, BBSPS only 300a? what it's cheaper than BCSPS??? How the hell did that work out? At higher levels nukers are spending 300-600a a mob that drops 1200+ adena. Melee's and probably archers are spending far more. I enjoy my Plainswalker more, but I enjoy my Necromancer's power much more than my Plainswalkers.

And another thing, Cemetary, FG, DC and Blazing Swamp are SWARMING with nukers. There are less and less traditional melee parties nowdays, it makes me sick, when will NCSoft smarten up?

[Haygole]

Im tellin ya, casting speed is the key here. I'm not poo-pooing any other suggestions, but I think the easiet and most likely solution is casting speed.


Here is an example I thought of on the toilet today, which some of you might equate with its value. :)

Say there is a party of several nukers plus their support against a party of melees and their support. Now, the way things are now the nukers can work off of one toon using assist and machine gun down the melees as they try to close even if their support could root the mages. Overkill doesn't factor in here because they can switch to the next target so quickly, so they can all fire at will and not worry about it.

Now, if casting speed was more reasonable the nukers would likely loose if they used such a lazy strategy. They wouldn't want to waste even 1 nuke, so they would have to be much morestrategic, also this at least gives the melees a chance to do something. Instead of being able to sleep/debuff/nuke whatever at will, the nukers would have to use some of this strategy they keep telling us melees to use.

Here is another thought deep from within the toilet. Now, this one is way way more exotic, and I will get hate mail from everyone but dagger users. I ready for it. LOL Here goes:

You could possibly leave everything alone as it is now if you allow daggers to be the stealthy killers they are. Let them go stealth. Let them **TRY** to get behind the lines and cause some mayhem. Hell, leave their specials as [censored] as they are now, but let them get in there and throw them. Now, you have the mages in a state of disaray trying to deal with these interlopers, meanwhile the traditional fighters could be trying to close and bring the fight to the nukers.

Crazy idea I know, but no less crazy than leaving things how they are now.

Notice I say **TRY** to stay stealth. Much like in DAoC if there are toons far over the stealthers level he is seen, and im sure we could throw some passives in there for stealthers to spot other stealthers on the move or something.

LAST CRAZY IDEA ALERT!!! They added spear throwing mobs in C3. I wan't an Orc spear throwing class. :) Hell, why not?

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
Not only that, but I find a Necromancer far more economically friendly, BBSPS only 300a? what it's cheaper than BCSPS??? How the hell did that work out? At higher levels nukers are spending 300-600a a mob that drops 1200+ adena

[/ QUOTE ] I'm having a hard time figuring out where you got this math from. If a BBSpS costs 300a on live, and if it's going to take 2 or 3 per spell on monsters that you're two-shotting, you're getting 600-1800a per monster that drops 1200+a. Not even introducing any information to contradict yours, we have a problem...the only way it works is if you are one-shotting monsters with a weapon that only has 1 SpS consumption.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not only that, but I find a Necromancer far more economically friendly, BBSPS only 300a? what it's cheaper than BCSPS??? How the hell did that work out? At higher levels nukers are spending 300-600a a mob that drops 1200+ adena

[/ QUOTE ] I'm having a hard time figuring out where you got this math from. If a BBSpS costs 300a on live, and if it's going to take 2 or 3 per spell on monsters that you're two-shotting, you're getting 600-1800a per monster that drops 1200+a. Not even introducing any information to contradict yours, we have a problem...the only way it works is if you are one-shotting monsters with a weapon that only has 1 SpS consumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't B grade the first grade that uses only 1 shot?

I was under the impression that a Staff of Evil Spirit will only use 1 BSPS per spell.

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't B grade the first grade that uses only 1 shot?

I was under the impression that a Staff of Evil Spirit will only use 1 BSPS per spell.

[/ QUOTE ] I can double-check that later, I haven't nuked in B-grade yet...but I was more going after the "one spell per monster" part of that pricing. I was under the impression nukers used two or three nukes per monster, and often at least one other spell every couple monsters.

I really need to level up a nuker so I can say from experience what the 60s are like on one :eek:

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't B grade the first grade that uses only 1 shot?

I was under the impression that a Staff of Evil Spirit will only use 1 BSPS per spell.

[/ QUOTE ] I can double-check that later, I haven't nuked in B-grade yet...but I was more going after the "one spell per monster" part of that pricing. I was under the impression nukers used two or three nukes per monster, and often at least one other spell every couple monsters.

I really need to level up a nuker so I can say from experience what the 60s are like on one :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure that it should take at least 2 spells.

I was just mentioning that it should only take 1 bsps per spell. (that way there isn't that additional multiplier in there to push the cost per spell much higher)

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly sure that it should take at least 2 spells.

I was just mentioning that it should only take 1 bsps per spell. (that way there isn't that additional multiplier in there to push the cost per spell much higher)

[/ QUOTE ] Either way, I think the point you were trying to make was that nukers are cheaper at higher levels, which is probably true...so I'll almost (cursed bones) shut up.

[Ventx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't B grade the first grade that uses only 1 shot?

I was under the impression that a Staff of Evil Spirit will only use 1 BSPS per spell.

[/ QUOTE ] I can double-check that later, I haven't nuked in B-grade yet...but I was more going after the "one spell per monster" part of that pricing. I was under the impression nukers used two or three nukes per monster, and often at least one other spell every couple monsters.

I really need to level up a nuker so I can say from experience what the 60s are like on one :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure that it should take at least 2 spells.

I was just mentioning that it should only take 1 bsps per spell. (that way there isn't that additional multiplier in there to push the cost per spell much higher)

[/ QUOTE ]

If your killing with Curse Death Link your better off killing mobs you can kill in 1 nuke. And thats 300a a kill. And fast too, and theres places you can do it safely too. If you fail? Just throw another nuke and keep sleep on the ready.

[Darian_Kain]

I think this argument stems from the fact that ranged, both physical and magic, classes can do pretty much anything in group or solo and still gain an advantage compared to melee classes. However more so I think this deals with soloing. A possible solution to the whole problem is that melee's should be given a bonus to exp for soloing since we can't kill as quickly as the ranged. Thus giving us the oportunity to keep up with them. Simple solution to a tough problem.

[Taraza]

I don't know man. Melee get some real nice and fast XP in the deep lair or ToI floor 11. Mobs there drop in seconds, in a group I maybe do 3 swings and the mob is down. And with melee its nonstop, all the time *** kicking. Mages have downtime. Sure they can pace themselves and never have to rest but then they aren't killing at the insane rate everyone seems to think they do.

[Torqq]

Bottom line is, group PVP, where people are buffed, isn't balanced. Ranged DDs own non ranged DDs by a huge amount. A simple and easy fix would be to do the following.

- Reduce patk on all bows by 40%, and reduce bow specials MP cost by 50%. Makes archers use specials to do super damage.

- Reduce the damage of nukes by 40%, and reduce the mp cost of nukes by 60%

- Give a resist hold, resist slow, and resist sleep passive skill to the slow, or low WIT, or melee classes: Destroyer, Warlord, Paladin, Tyrant, Gladiator, DA, Dwarves, BD, SWS, SK, TK, daggers

Done. Balanced game for both PVE and PVP.

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]

- Reduce the damage of nukes by 40%, and reduce the mp cost of nukes by 60%
...
Done. Balanced game for both PVE and PVP.

[/ QUOTE ] PvP, maybe. PvE, irrepairable damage to the classes.

[MuadDib]

[ QUOTE ]
- Reduce patk on all bows by 40%, and reduce bow specials MP cost by 50%. Makes archers use specials to do super damage.

[/ QUOTE ]
/signed

[ QUOTE ]
- Reduce the damage of nukes by 40%, and reduce the mp cost of nukes by 60%

[/ QUOTE ]
/not signed. nukers should do extreme amounts of damage, its their job. Nerf casting speed instead.

[ QUOTE ]
- Give a resist hold, resist slow, and resist sleep passive skill to the slow, or low WIT, or melee classes: Destroyer, Warlord, Paladin, Tyrant, Gladiator, DA, Dwarves, BD, SWS, SK, TK, daggers

[/ QUOTE ]
/signed Yes pls :)

[Taraza]

everyone agrees that casting speed needs to be nerfed but all the other things, not a balance issue with correct support classes around. In C4 Elemental Summoners are going to be vital as they can cure **** near anything. Other than that archers need that damage, shields and evasion are brutal to them. I haven't played PTS but I can't imagine archers getting to the point where they need a nerf like nukers atm.

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played PTS but I can't imagine archers getting to the point where they need a nerf like nukers atm.

[/ QUOTE ] Just wait and see...they're a very close second, it's just that tiny advantages matter a lot.

[Iriden]

[ QUOTE ]
- Reduce patk on all bows by 40%, and reduce bow specials MP cost by 50%. Makes archers use specials to do super damage.

- Reduce the damage of nukes by 40%, and reduce the mp cost of nukes by 60%


[/ QUOTE ]
while your idea is not bad, but i think it's a bit too harsh. i can see where your idea comes from (range classes do too much dmg), but swinging the nerf bat isn't the best way to go. IMO, boosting melee offensively and defensively is a better way to make melee more attractive to play, even if they're still underpowered. some examples include:

-tattoo: eliminate the tattoo restriction, so that classes that doesn't have passive magic def boost can add some mdef with tattoo, same way a mage gets pdef/hp with +con tattoo

-weapon masteries: give melee classes equal lvls of weapon mastery as bow mastery. at lvl 36, melee has only 8 lvls of their specific weapone mastery but bow mastery goes up to lvl 15. also, the patk bonus of masteries should be the same across the board. it is ridiculous that the patk of a lvl 35 assasin with a comp bow equals to the patk of the same char with a mainguache (personal experience).

-survivability: defense from heavy armor should be increased, either by giving heavy armor mastery more pdef bonus (ie: 3 pdef per mastery before lvl 40, 6 pdef after lvl 40), or give more pdef boost with complete armor set (15-20%). also, equation of magic dmg needs to be change to make mdef a more determinating factor. instead of sqrt(matk/mdef)*91*skillpwr, it should be (sqrt(matk)*91*skillpwr)/mdef, which is similar to physical dmg equation.

-atk spd: adjust atk spd so that it's more align with casting spd from 3 angles: tattoo, SA, item set bonus. +dex should have the same +atk spd value as +wit. haste and acumon should have the same +atk spd%, and same can be said with set bonus. this should be done by scaling down acu, wit and atk spd set bonus to further enforce survivability.

[Sabastian]

Ranged should be better @ PVP I cant think of any form of warfair that makes a ranged enemy at range less scary than a melee at range and heading your way, and not in a game where cover matters little due to lack of it and its affects.

ok maby a chap with a crossbow shooting a Tank (chieftan verity) but thats a time line issue, Archer were deadly at range without cover to hide behind in their time same goes for guns now US marine > man with big knife even in armour (headshot for the win)
ok there has never been nukers in RL but yea its a ranged weapon why shouldn't it beet the hell outta a melee at range or you would use a bow right?

but get a melee inside cover and the balance changes ++ stun. knife > bullet proof jacket.

what i would rather see is some sieges/castles where there is tones of cover or even dwarfs that make siege equipent to hide and advance in

[Haygole]

Hmm, I can dig this proposal. That would be kinda a neat thing to have some sort of shield stuff... Anything to make the sieges more interesting gets a + from me.

[Orka]

still my biggest problem is mages dont die fast enough, and archers cant be interupted while shooting someone thats in their FACE ramming them with a huge hammer

[Lunori]

Yeah archers should be vulnerable then in close combat.
They do alot of dmg from a distance - ok thats good, makes sense.
They do the same damage then beeing attacked by a meele from a close distance - umhhh :confused: at least the accuracy should be decreased for archers in such situation.
BTW nukers casting should be also interupted then taking meele hits, character speaks a spell then he casts and says "ouch" then he takes a hit. So it should be like "abra-ka-dabbrOUCH [Casting has been interupted]". That would make sense, and for my opinion... it would balance a game by little.

Nukers/ranged are RANGED, they should NOT be good meele ALSO couse they use RANGED attcaks, ok, got it?
Now MEELE chars can't do RANGED attcaks as good as the RANGED chars does MEELE attacs (well not meele, but at close/meele range).

[MuadDib]

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Yeah archers should be vulnerable then in close combat.
They do alot of dmg from a distance - ok thats good, makes sense.
They do the same damage then beeing attacked by a meele from a close distance - umhhh :confused: at least the accuracy should be decreased for archers in such situation.
BTW nukers casting should be also interupted then taking meele hits, character speaks a spell then he casts and says "ouch" then he takes a hit. So it should be like "abra-ka-dabbrOUCH [Casting has been interupted]". That would make sense, and for my opinion... it would balance a game by little.

Nukers/ranged are RANGED, they should NOT be good meele ALSO couse they use RANGED attcaks, ok, got it?
Now MEELE chars can't do RANGED attcaks as good as the RANGED chars does MEELE attacs (well not meele, but at close/meele range).

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I like the idea of interrupting archers, or at least having something happen to them in melee range. This would help alot in mass PVP. Catching them is still a problem, but this would make sense.
Yes, ranged chars should do tons of damage. That is their function. They should not, however, be able to easily kill melee chars before they can close to range.