GM response please - unbalance issue topic

[CircusFCA]

Being a Lineage 1 player, I realise the NA team really doesn't have developers, all the code comes here from Korea and you just add their code to our game. I just want to know if the concerns of melee being terrible in pvp is communicated in any way to the Korean dev teams? You guys have meetings with them right? Do you send them the concerns we have of the unbalanced gameplay?

There have been several multi page threads on this board of players voicing their concerns over this issue and as seen in c4 nothing of concern has been addressed in any way.

Do Korean players have the same concerns or do they all play nukers and archers? Do they not pvp? Is this simply a case of you and the dev teams not believing what the community tells you about how bad melee is? All you have to do is pull some numbers off the servers of what people have subclassed.....very few people ever subclass melee. There is a reason for that.

[Spudnik]

gm's are the middlemen and ladies.

they convey what we say.

if the korean devs have made the game in a certain way, then they leave it. if they think they goofed after hearing concerns they fix it.

so far i think the korean devs made it the way it is for a reason and it intends to stay that way.

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]
gm's are the middlemen and ladies.

they convey what we say.

if the korean devs have made the game in a certain way, then they leave it. if they think they goofed after hearing concerns they fix it.

so far i think the korean devs made it the way it is for a reason and it intends to stay that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this to be correct.

[Wyzeguy]

[ QUOTE ]
There have been several multi page threads on this board of players voicing their concerns over this issue and as seen in c4 nothing of concern has been addressed in any way.


[/ QUOTE ]
Noting this, we need yet another stupid thread on it . . . why?

[RumPunch]

I have a melee (TH) dagger user.

She does fine in PvP. She has dropped ppl quite a bit higher than she is, people of classes which are supposedly the best PvP ones. Well equipped ppl who come to revenge the bots she has trained.

So I don't think that there is any problem here, none at all.

My theory is that PvP victory is a lot less dependant on the class you play, the equipment you wear, and the weapon you use than is commonly thought. What matters in winning is the person at the keyboard.

If you're good, you tend to win. If you're not, you don't. But human nature is such that the people taking dirt naps will blame NCSoft, their opponents, their internet provider, or ANYONE else rather than admit they were outclassed personally.

People who levelled up fast (or cheated one way or another) did not have to go through the pain and suffering of levelling up the hard way, the way the game is designed to do. As a resault they never develop the personal skills that make you a winner. Shortcuts hurt you , not help you. Patience is a virtue. (I'm not saying OP cheated, just an observation here.)

Just an orc's opinion, of course. Others will disagree.

[CircusFCA]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a melee (TH) dagger user.

She does fine in PvP. She has dropped ppl quite a bit higher than she is, people of classes which are supposedly the best PvP ones. Well equipped ppl who come to revenge the bots she has trained.

So I don't think that there is any problem here, none at all.

My theory is that PvP victory is a lot less dependant on the class you play, the equipment you wear, and the weapon you use than is commonly thought. What matters in winning is the person at the keyboard.

If you're good, you tend to win. If you're not, you don't. But human nature is such that the people taking dirt naps will blame NCSoft, their opponents, their internet provider, or ANYONE else rather than admit they were outclassed personally.

People who levelled up fast (or cheated one way or another) did not have to go through the pain and suffering of levelling up the hard way, the way the game is designed to do. As a resault they never develop the personal skills that make you a winner. Shortcuts hurt you , not help you. Patience is a virtue. (I'm not saying OP cheated, just an observation here.)

Just an orc's opinion, of course. Others will disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so missing 80% specials (yes I'm a nerfed dagger) on even standing still nukers/healers is a player problem and not a gameplay problem?

Listen, this wasn't a debate on if melee is fine, I think the multiple paged threads on this board have covered that, this was a request for info on how our concerns are communicated to the real developers.

[RumPunch]

I believe you both missed my point and proved it.

[Torg]

I think the real concern is whether or not NCSoft sees a problem. If NCSoft doesn't see a problem then there is no point in arguing. It means that status quo is not an accident and they fully expect certain classes to be more successful and easier then other classes. It means that if you don't like the status quo you're better off to vote with your money and leave the game.

I still think NCSoft could be printing money if they localized this game to the North American market by offering additional server types and fixed the balance issues.

[CircusFCA]

ok all mighty great pvp'r Rum....please tell me how many people you know that have subclassed a melee character......if melee's weren't so terrible people would play them. Some of us poor saps got stuck playing their melee to 75 just because we didn't realise what NC had in store for us...the only question you have to ask someone when they hit 75 is "you doing archer or nuker?"

You have obviously missed the point of the majority of the melee community.

[Mistryl]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you send them the concerns we have of the unbalanced gameplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The concerns and feedback from players are communicated frequently to the development team. This goes for a variety of topics, including gameplay balance. We appreciate all of the comments on the board that players provide, and we will continue to pass it along. Thanks!

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you send them the concerns we have of the unbalanced gameplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The concerns and feedback from players are communicated frequently to the development team. This goes for a variety of topics, including gameplay balance. We appreciate all of the comments on the board that players provide, and we will continue to pass it along. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]


Soooooo... the developers don't think there is a problem, do they?

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]
ok all mighty great pvp'r Rum....please tell me how many people you know that have subclassed a melee character......if melee's weren't so terrible people would play them. Some of us poor saps got stuck playing their melee to 75 just because we didn't realise what NC had in store for us...the only question you have to ask someone when they hit 75 is "you doing archer or nuker?"

You have obviously missed the point of the majority of the melee community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.. I'm going to be subbing a melee character and I know of a few more who will be too.

Issue is that most people want to be "uber powerful" and they see the way to do this is by rerolling or subbing a mage.

However... "if" NC decides.. well... the way we created the classes is not to the liking of players and most of them are making mages therefore we need to change the balance, you will find a lot of players screaming and yelling and kicking (and good I say!)

At the moment this is how they envision the game. It's a shame in some respects as there are many classes that seem like they would be interesting and rich additions to the game world but they are just not able to generate enough interest because most players either don't want to put in the work or don't see the reward once the work has been done.

Torq is corrrect... vote with your wallet. Do not think, for one minute, that I am not awaiting word from NC telling us where the game is going. In my opinion C3 was the game that should have been released and C4 is the fruition of many of those C3 additions (hero classes, noblesse).

Other than the 7 signs competition which is of absolutely no interest to me (and is it really in the interests of anyone when you get non-castle holders always signing up for Dawn so that they can get access to all the nice economic niceties) all the chronicles have been adding touches, and finishing "unfinished business". Making slight changes like new player buffs. But in the end it's all about grind grind grind.. some pvp.. grind grind grind. I'm starting to feel like I want more.

Funny enough, it seems that one of the radical changes that has been added is fishing. It gives us something else to do other than grind.

I can really understand the more hardcore pvp'ers when they start "pulling their hair out" because they want to pvp more as the only other thing to do is to grind.

[Drekk]

it takes awhile for changes to appear, as much as i would like it to be, you can't just come in and say "this unbalanced lets wave a balance stick and make it work"

things that seem unbalanced need to be rigously tested in closed enviroment, ideas need to be passed back and forth between the teams, differnt ideas need to be tried to make sure that it doesn't outbalance another class and can't be exploited and then there is the coding.

these can take months and months at a time, just because no one has come up and said "we are working on it" or "sure we will make the changes" doesn't mean they arn't being taken into consideration.

I'll use summoners as a example and pet soulshots as well, remember when we thought that pets could use soulshots early on? but that got pushed back and left into development untill... well now.

we can even use daggers as an example, remember in beta and c1 when daggers was the scariest class on the server? every man and his grandma had one on his account somewhere. People complained , people called and nothing was done, untill chroncle c2. Doesn't mean this is written in stone, this could easily be changed mid c4 or even c5.

Summoners used to NEVER have any exp loss but that prooved to be imbalanced then the -30% was implimented, then it took what.. 2 chronicles for them to balance it in a way that could be playable and bearable at the same time.

Patience is a virtue ^.^

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok all mighty great pvp'r Rum....please tell me how many people you know that have subclassed a melee character......if melee's weren't so terrible people would play them. Some of us poor saps got stuck playing their melee to 75 just because we didn't realise what NC had in store for us...the only question you have to ask someone when they hit 75 is "you doing archer or nuker?"

You have obviously missed the point of the majority of the melee community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.. I'm going to be subbing a melee character and I know of a few more who will be too.

Issue is that most people want to be "uber powerful" and they see the way to do this is by rerolling or subbing a mage.

However... "if" NC decides.. well... the way we created the classes is not to the liking of players and most of them are making mages therefore we need to change the balance, you will find a lot of players screaming and yelling and kicking (and good I say!)

At the moment this is how they envision the game. It's a shame in some respects as there are many classes that seem like they would be interesting and rich additions to the game world but they are just not able to generate enough interest because most players either don't want to put in the work or don't see the reward once the work has been done.

Torq is corrrect... vote with your wallet. Do not think, for one minute, that I am not awaiting word from NC telling us where the game is going. In my opinion C3 was the game that should have been released and C4 is the fruition of many of those C3 additions (hero classes, noblesse).

Other than the 7 signs competition which is of absolutely no interest to me (and is it really in the interests of anyone when you get non-castle holders always signing up for Dawn so that they can get access to all the nice economic niceties) all the chronicles have been adding touches, and finishing "unfinished business". Making slight changes like new player buffs. But in the end it's all about grind grind grind.. some pvp.. grind grind grind. I'm starting to feel like I want more.

Funny enough, it seems that one of the radical changes that has been added is fishing. It gives us something else to do other than grind.

I can really understand the more hardcore pvp'ers when they start "pulling their hair out" because they want to pvp more as the only other thing to do is to grind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I think the PTS showed me how the game was really meant to be played. I didn't have much of a fear of PVP because of the increased XP rates and drop rates. I could literally drop equipment and not mind because I could make the adena back in a reasonable amount of time. It became more about the conflicts and less about the mind numbing grind.

But yeah... once the test server goes down I'm trying out a new PVP game from Korea that is being localized for the NA market that just started their Preorder Beta.

I continue to hold out hope for this game but I think it would require showing them the numbers as far as how much they could make if this game was brought to the market with a more reasonable grind and remarketed to promote the sieging and clan war conflicts instead of the fact that you'll have to put in 8 hours of grinding (not to mention the time it'd take to find/form a party) to make up 1 death.

The game is also not all about skill. There is a certain amount that is skill but alot of it is which class you're playing. I don't think any amount of skill can compensate for the way some of the skills/stats function. If it was about skill then getting into higher gear just for PVE wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[PleChan]

I for one wuld really like to know whats up with the dev in korea, what there belives in it, I wuld DIE for some words from them and I'm sure quite many here wuld do the same.

Everyone in this game don't love to play nukers nor archers, we are quite a few who like to play meles, sadly in this game if you want to PvP, you really have no option at all, You can't select the class you wuld enjoy the most, if you do. You end up just being able to PvE.... even in PVE there is balance problems as well... specialy melee here to..... And yes there is balance issisues between meeless as well but not as bad as it's melees vs rangers.
I do thoght understand that some classes wuld shine over others, but not like entire ranged class shine so high over every mele that the meles have no chanse at all.

A few days ago my Lv 58 BH got beaten by an lv 44 Nuker... very balanced here I mind you, I was even in top B gear, I maby wuld have won if I didnt forget to bring my bow... a weapon this class is not even ment to use..........

Anyhow if it's possible I wuld love to hear some words from the developers from korea, if it's possible I wuldnt mind interview them either as I have quite many questions to ask them, if it's possible PLZ give me the information about how that wuld be done.

Oh and spare me the comments that there is PVE and PVP chars, This is a PVP game, everyone should be able to PVP whatever class they prefer to play.

[MalineII]

C2 and C3 would never have happened in the form they did if thorough balance testing had taken place.

[Caleria]

Well the balance issues from C1 were balanced with C2... the new balance issues were corrected with C3... and the balance issues we have had until now have been... harld yaddressed at all. Nukers hand to hand spells have been nerved a wee bit, but that about it.

Which leads to the conclusion that there is no problem with the balance in the eyes of a lange majority of the players, including the dev team.

Elven elder is still one of the most popular classes in Korea, mind you.

Cal

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]

Elven elder is still one of the most popular classes in Korea, mind you.

Cal

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really true?

[Zeus747]

The LEAD developer of the L2 team PLAYS a SILVER RANGER enough said (Admitted this when he was doing an interview for C4).

Korean players that play melee do care but their concerns are ignored! Especially those that play daggers in Korea but the dev team also plays the game and they play mostly ranged characters unforunately.

If they think it is "balanced" in their eyes now it will only get worse. That screenshot of a Dark Screamer without an enchanted weapon or tatoos looked nasty. :(
:( :(

[Xanthus_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Elven elder is still one of the most popular classes in Korea, mind you.

Cal

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, supposedly they're "Cute" or something. :P

[Azrealicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you send them the concerns we have of the unbalanced gameplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The concerns and feedback from players are communicated frequently to the development team. This goes for a variety of topics, including gameplay balance. We appreciate all of the comments on the board that players provide, and we will continue to pass it along. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you guys get a lot of feedback back from the devs about the issues we bring up? If so, how much are you allowed to share with the community?

[Kieva]

hehe I think it would be funny for NC Soft to respond to thread number 1928374712178273 in regards to melee and PvP with the following:

Thank you for bringing up your concerns. We have reviewed the many threads and realize there is a problem with melee. So in responce to all the Threads regarding this subject at our next dev meeting we are proposing that all Melee CP/HP be reduced by 50% and all melee skills be put on a 6 hour timer. Thank you for comments.


Then maybe the poor dead horse will no longer be beaten. I can just imagine the uproar if they did something like this LOL. Maybe they should as an April Fools day joke just to really liven the forums up for a few days.

[Sovrath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Elven elder is still one of the most popular classes in Korea, mind you.

Cal

[/ QUOTE ]



Is that really true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, supposedly they're "Cute" or something. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooooo.. what we are saying here is that the Korean community has a slightly different idea as to what is desirable... "cute" being a very desirable factor...

No wonder EE's haven't changed...

Developers: "what? NA has problems with the EE?" "I can't understand why... there is no way to make them cuter". "Well, ok... if they want them better then we will have to figure out a way to add another layer of "cuteness". They'll really like C5 then!!!"

Player in C5: Why is there a pink bow on my EE?!?!?!" "And why are the eyes so big?!?!?" "Is that a snuggle bear on it's armor"!?!?!?

[Baggies]

Bunny ears ftw.......

[Caleria]

I see we had the same ideas there Sovrath. :)

Cal

[Rangur]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There have been several multi page threads on this board of players voicing their concerns over this issue and as seen in c4 nothing of concern has been addressed in any way.


[/ QUOTE ]
Noting this, we need yet another stupid thread on it . . . why?

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, the thread wasnt stupid.
Then, to answer your question, I quote: "The concerns and feedback from players are communicated frequently to the development team. This goes for a variety of topics, including gameplay balance. We appreciate all of the comments on the board that players provide, and we will continue to pass it along. Thanks! "

The concerns and feedback are communicated *frequently*.
This means that when there is a thread in December about melee being underpowered, and not in January, then this may only get reported as being an issue in December and not inin January. On the other hand, when different people keep voicing the same opinion, the issue is reported again as "not fixed yet", "still a problem in the eyes of the community" etc.

Its true that the original post could have been made as a reply into another thread. However, your destructive feedback helps noone and is nothing else but rude and unneeded.

Btw. as you can see in my sig, none of my main chars (those which are 6x) is a melee char. And for the record, I think melee needs a bit help.

[Wyzeguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There have been several multi page threads on this board of players voicing their concerns over this issue and as seen in c4 nothing of concern has been addressed in any way.


[/ QUOTE ]
Noting this, we need yet another stupid thread on it . . . why?

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, the thread wasnt stupid.
Then, to answer your question, I quote: "The concerns and feedback from players are communicated frequently to the development team. This goes for a variety of topics, including gameplay balance. We appreciate all of the comments on the board that players provide, and we will continue to pass it along. Thanks! "

The concerns and feedback are communicated *frequently*.


[/ QUOTE ]

I mispoke. The topic isn't stupid for the thread. The stupid part is it appeared on my screen with other well-established threads on the exact same topic. And if I wanted I could always turn to game-suggestions forum where they get more involved and detailed, but same basic nerf/balance topic.

And the bit about NC response, we get it every couple weeks a reminder, a couple times already from Mistryl, from Sarge before her, and Ash, and Dhevrin that they have a dedicated community manager whose job it is to remind the developers that we still complain about no server transfers, bots, and balance.

And to clarify, no there's no stupid questions, this one included. Just stupid people who have to keep asking it over and over.

[Torg]

The point of the thread isn't to discuss the actual perceived imbalance. The point is to see if the developers share the point of view that its a problem or if they're of the opinion that everything is fine. If the developers agree and believe there is a problem then it means that they will be working towards a solution in the future. If the developers disagree then the players are better off voting with their money and leaving the game.

The point of the thread is to find out if people should be leaving if they're unhappy or sticking it out and waiting for a developer response.

That makes this thread completely different from the other threads in the other forums. This thread basically helps to determine if the other threads are even worth pursuing.

[Wyzeguy]

Torg, the most recent CM response to this very question that I know of was 1/20/06.

from mistryl (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=494893&Foru m=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Limit =25&Main=494594&Search=true&where=&Name=8839&dater ange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post494893)

Do ya think it'd take only ~2 weeks for the answer to change?

No this thread isn't different from the other ones. Same old saw. Yes the devs hear from us. No you can't have a &^%$ pony.

[Caleria]

If you don't like C4, check back for C5. After that you might want to try C6 in a year.

It's a freaking game, if it doesn't entertain you just do something fun. Like spending the night with your friends and get wasted.

NA is less than 1/20 of the L2 comunity, and it seems in it's current state L2 is very successful amoung the audience it was designed for. Us westerners get auto assault.

Cal

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
Torg, the most recent CM response to this very question that I know of was 1/20/06.

from mistryl (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=494893&Foru m=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Limit =25&Main=494594&Search=true&where=&Name=8839&dater ange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post494893)

Do ya think it'd take only ~2 weeks for the answer to change?

No this thread isn't different from the other ones. Same old saw. Yes the devs hear from us. No you can't have a &^%$ pony.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that they talk to the developers was not the issue of the thread.

The question was: Do the developers think that its an issue?

You can drop the hostility because I haven't flamed you. I'm just pointing out that these are not the same types of threads. The differences between the two questions is pretty clear.

One is: Do they talk to the Devs?

We know the answer is yes.

This thread is devoted to: Do the Developers see the stated issue as a problem?

NCSoft probably won't answer this question but it was worth asking because it has the potential to resolve the issue and direct a course of action from the players.

[RumPunch]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like C4, check back for C5. After that you might want to try C6 in a year.

It's a freaking game, if it doesn't entertain you just do something fun. Like spending the night with your friends and get wasted.

NA is less than 1/20 of the L2 comunity, and it seems in it's current state L2 is very successful amoung the audience it was designed for. Us westerners get auto assault.

Cal

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Said Cal.

Personally, since the NA customer base isn't big enough to support L2 by itself, I consider that we are doggone lucky to have NCSoft willing to support L2 here.

I know that my preference for L2 style games is different from the 'normal' NA player (who like autoassault type games, shudder). I like complex, thinking, tough, long term games. I am very glad that NCSoft is willing to bring an English version to NA even though their profits are from overseas.

TY NCS.

[Wyzeguy]

No hostility here, 'specially to Torg. You didn't even start this thread. The pony comment was an allusion to Sarge's old .sig

The previous CM responses are a lot like the one today and 2 weeks ago. They forward concerns to the devs. There's no plans for a devs-talk-back feature. I don't get the impression that the devs particularly talk to the Korean fan base about things like this either, at least haven't read anything on l2center.

Consistently CMs say they'll forward whatever they hear back to us. Periodically we get big vision type posts from the higher-ups. And cheese.

For me, actions speak louder than any words they might send us anyway -- go to PTS and see what the devs thought we needed for C4. Readers-Digest version: Summoner-types have been balanced. Melee-range nukes have been toned-down a little.

[WaRpZnEwt]

daggers are hardly underpowered they just require alot of finese and strategy (Alot moreso then many other classes) to survive.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like C4, check back for C5. After that you might want to try C6 in a year.

It's a freaking game, if it doesn't entertain you just do something fun. Like spending the night with your friends and get wasted.

NA is less than 1/20 of the L2 comunity, and it seems in it's current state L2 is very successful amoung the audience it was designed for. Us westerners get auto assault.

Cal

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Said Cal.

Personally, since the NA customer base isn't big enough to support L2 by itself, I consider that we are doggone lucky to have NCSoft willing to support L2 here.

I know that my preference for L2 style games is different from the 'normal' NA player (who like autoassault type games, shudder). I like complex, thinking, tough, long term games. I am very glad that NCSoft is willing to bring an English version to NA even though their profits are from overseas.

TY NCS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is still a money making operation and that NCSoft isn't doing it out of the kindness of their heart.

You can check their financials on their homepage in the press releases section. Their North American offerings do make money. Its more along the lines that their old stated viewpoint was that gamers everywhere are identical and that if you make a good product that it will sell anywhere. In one of the more recent interviews that I saw they'd changed their tune and claimed they were going to start working on localizing their products.

The thread still goes back to whether or not the Korean developers believe that there is a balance problem between the classes. The original poster was asking if the GM's had heard anything from Korea about this topic.

I don't believe that people should just quit if they find something they don't like. Its better to provide feedback and at least make a case before simply quitting. After all, when you cancel L2 there isn't a 'Account Deactivation' survey or anything that pops up to ask why you're quitting.

If you quit without voicing your opinion and providing feedback then you can guarantee that nothing will change because all that will be left will be the people that like the status quo.

[Warper]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is devoted to: Do the Developers see the stated issue as a problem?

NCSoft probably won't answer this question but it was worth asking because it has the potential to resolve the issue and direct a course of action from the players.

[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, the answer to your question is covered by the link. They can't answer your question :(

Not to say I wanna flame you, but it's pointless to ask again and again under different angles hoping to break "we don't answer your questions" policy. It's pity people still hope, but get no answer. Nevertheless it's the thing we have at hands :(

And even if developers suppose it to be an issue, they are not in urge to fix it asap.
How much time does it take to fix daggers damage (C2 issue) and probability? One week flat without testing. One month max with all-around testing on PTS.
How much time does it take for devs? Half a year?

How much time does it take to fix all melees in general? Much moe than only daggers. So... don't expect it to become ready before C5. It ain't gonna happen, believe me.

Boosts are mostly individual and take much time each. It's not rewarding thing for press release. It's not new areas, not another dull mini-game, not even bunch of skills, races and classes. No journal will be impressed by numbers in this case. It's not "Lagest Lineage II expansion yet", just a dull balance to satisfy a minority of losers who are dumb enough to stay with their melee classes.
Devs don't help with losers - be it scam, "new exploit" victims or "minor bug" victims.

Thanks to reroll ability devs are not interested in fixing balance in a timely manner :mad: Money voting doesn't work for such additcive game :)

[MalineII]

I've seen on some of the PvP vids from OnGame or what they're called guys and their (apparently) girlfriend healers. I figure any popularity of EEs might be due to that.

And Cal, testing is so you don't have to fix last chronicle's unbalance, but so you don't get an unbalanced chronicle in the first place.

[Wyzeguy]

So, being the kind of person that I am (data-driven), here's what I'd do if I were a dev.

Listen to the customers' concerns and suggestions.

BUT - Act based on what we see in the game.

They have the data of which classes are played to what level.
They have the data of which classes get killed the most at sieges, and which classes do the most killing at sieges. Same for weapons and skills.
They can do the same for pve like raid bosses and all.

If it's true (just for example) that no one plays daggers cuz they suxxors, the devs can see that directly. Daggers get no kills, lotsa deaths, and steadily decreasing participation rates at higher levels. That's a lot more trustworthy than complaints and cries of the unambiguously biased. If it's true that daggers suck, then that would indicate the folly of being too hasty to adjust (i.e. the C2 dagger nerfs).

Seek balance with patience.

[MalineII]

As I keep saying - the community is a brainstorming tool, not a design guideline. There are many things that I strongly feel - and argue are wrong with the game. I am, however, perfectly aware of how wrong in how many different ways I can be.

It's at once a great relief and frustration to see how headstrong the designers are.

[Caleria]

Hm I should go look for some Korean C4 PvP vids... I mean... if they are not totally stubborn they must have noticed the advantages sme classes have over others that we are feeling here. Or maybe it's us playing our melee chars totally in the wrong way? (Dobt that)

There were not many balance changes from C3 to C4... that must mean that the large majority of the players is happy with the balance as it is. Or could the devs be that arrogant? I doubt that too. They know where their mone comes from.

Cal

[RumPunch]

[ QUOTE ]
..... the people that like the status quo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Torq. A lot of people do like the status quo, hence my personal feeling that there is not a real problem here that the devs need to address.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
..... the people that like the status quo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Torq. A lot of people do like the status quo, hence my personal feeling that there is not a real problem here that the devs need to address.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense Rum but alot more people don't like the status quo.

Last numbers that I saw from a research group were 3.1m people playing MMO's. 70k of them are subscribing to Lineage2. How much of the server population is actual players? Now this is a theory but I'm guessing that its a declining percentage.

So you can continue to state 'If you don't like it leave' but its not in the game's best interest to try to further decrease its subscription base. I don't think they'll ever shut the game down due to only having limited staff and upkeep costs but this game relies on having a large player base to make the politics interesting.

[AngelInDisquise]

I know this thread is passed the Unbalance topic. But IMO, the easiest way to fix these unbalances is not to nerf a certain class, but to maybe take away some features that, for lack of a better word, get "abused".

First, I would have to say that, as much as i love them, Dye's shouldn't exist. Before you blow up, think of it. I'll use mages for example.
The DE Mage is powerful, but slightly slow
The Elf Mage is Weaker, but slightly faster
The Human mage is a good combo of both.
This is at base stats... at this, it comes down to who mixes DOT in with their spells or who's sleep lands. Not, you get dropped cause even tho her int is -8 , her wit is +8 and she can cast 5 spells to your 1. The same works for melee as well with con and dex... Think about it before you get enraged please.

Secondly, BSPS. SPS should be good enough, period. Melee's have not been crying for a Blessed SS. And no, adding a Blessed SS would not fix this, cause BSPS would still be too much... leave it at SS and SPS.

And last, but not least, enchants for weapons. I make tons of money selling these, but the fact that someone can buy currency and get a +16 while an " average joe" is stuck with +3 to +4 out of fear of crushing it, is kinda jacked. I'm not saying that peeps with +10 n' higher all ebay. I've got many friends with high enchanted weaps, that are legit, but you get my point.

A side note, would be the necessity of SA's. I truly like these, but erm? We have buffs to get most of the abilities. So really, they are kinda gimping buffers with these. Tho, nothing could replace a buff.

I'm not the holy one with all the answers. This is just an opinion of a fraction of a % of the L2 community.

[RumPunch]

[ QUOTE ]

So you can continue to state 'If you don't like it leave' but its not in the game's best interest to try to further decrease its subscription base. I don't think they'll ever shut the game down due to only having limited staff and upkeep costs but this game relies on having a large player base to make the politics interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, I never said that or anything like it, nor did I intend to imply that. I don't want you to leave. You entertain me. I watch for your posts.

[Zeus747]

Back to the topic at hand. :D

Recently in Korea the devs decided to reduce the daggers damage that specials were inflicting. There was such an uproar from the Korean dagger players of this nerf that the devs changed it back.

And now we learn with some updated and translated patch notes that Destroyers have been nerfed in Korea.

Go figure? :confused: :confused: :confused:

So at some point the majority of the players aka the Korean fan base will too be fed up with this lopsided balance between melee DD's and ranged DD's.

Koreans that play daggers have been vocal about improving their class specifically a bit hence why the recive fatal blow and bluff. Unfortunately balancing PVP past level 75 is not a great idea becuase how are you supposed to PVP from 40-75???

The devs have said they will work on balancing PVP between 40-75 in the future while in the mean time the 75+ PVP should be balanced according to them.

A lot of the new skills that melees do recieve with the third class change are promising but at the same time nukers and archers are also receving some more goodies in terms of skills past 75.

If anyone played the PTS it was full of Necros. How fun was that? Not fun at all. :( :( :(

[Rangur]

[ QUOTE ]
If anyone played the PTS it was full of Necros. How fun was that? Not fun at all. :( :( :(

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, it wasnt. The reason for that, was kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Necro is a great class to gank people with. Because of that, many people who enjoy ganking others, rolled a Necro on PTS. And used it to gank or train others.

On the live servers, the effect will be the same, although slower. Gankers and Bandwagon hoppers will choose necro as the FOTM class. I pity the Necros who already play their class for some time, because they may suffer from the bad reputation their newly subbed "classmates" will give their class.


Every time a Necro uses a cursed bone, he should have the chance to fetch the "curse" from the bone and be debuffed :)
(Ok ok no, I am not serious with that suggestion)

[bekkar]

[ QUOTE ]
I pity the Necros who already play their class for some time, because they may suffer from the bad reputation their newly subbed "classmates" will give their class.

[/ QUOTE ] :(
Sad but very true.

I wonder why it wasn't until C4 that necromancers got the reputation for power, when in C3 it was basically the same thing, just few people noticed. The biggest issue, TP+nukes, has been there for a very long time.

[CimexusSH]

Yah lol...same with SH. SH gets lumped in with the rest of the nukers now "omg overpowered, omg nerf nerf"...when SH is EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT HAS BEEN SINCE C1. I cannot for the life of me understand that.

Yes the addition of Aura Flare and Cancel to Sps and Sorc in C2 was perhaps unbalancing. But SH have always been exactly the same (except for gaining an overhit nuke in C2). Frankly I think SH is how a nuker should be - powerful at long range but completely defenceless at melee range. Aura Flare is a joke lol...

Disclaimer: yes I play an SH. But I also play a bishop, dwarf, tyrant and have experience playing SK, BD and PW. I don't really think melee are as underpowered as people make out...nukers are so **** fragile and easily killed.

[Antioch]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really think melee are as underpowered as people make out...nukers are so **** fragile and easily killed.


[/ QUOTE ]

I play a melee, and played a melee on my pre-quit account, I agree with cimexusSH. Melees aren't that underpowered, and mages are not gods, melee are footsoldiers... sure it takes a number of them to reach the mage but it only takes one to kill it. it's the way it should be. Mages are "nukers" after all. Does it suck being a footman that got nailed? sure. but it's the job we signed up for.. you don't want to be that person? Roll up a mage or an archer (the real mage killer). tactically speaking Melees should be powerful enough not to be ignored (ie don't let them get close to you) but not stand alone mass killers.

[Xanthus_]

[ QUOTE ]
... sure it takes a number of them to reach the mage ...it's the way it should be...Does it suck...sure...Melees should be powerful enough not to be ignored (ie don't let them get close to you) but not stand alone mass killers.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes a lot more sense quicker.

Basically what you're saying is that all melee are there for is the amusement of nukers. Like they're the generals, cavalry, and artillery, and we're just uselss meat sheilds.

Well, that's not balance. When 2 players start and play the same time, to the same level and get the same gear, those characters should be equally powerful. It shouldn't be that on is the uber nuker, and the other is just cannon fodder.

Besides which, I play a dagger, and many other people play various melee DDs as well. Last I checked, I don't even make good cannon fodder, most fully-buffed mages can 1-shot me. So, if I'm not meatsheild, and I'm useless as a DD, what use DO I have?

If I wanted to play a meatsheild I'd play a tank. If I wanted to play a nuker I would have. I wanted to play a DD and I wanted to do it in your face....unfortunately it hasn't really been working out that way.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't really think melee are as underpowered as people make out...nukers are so **** fragile and easily killed.


[/ QUOTE ]

I play a melee, and played a melee on my pre-quit account, I agree with cimexusSH. Melees aren't that underpowered, and mages are not gods, melee are footsoldiers... sure it takes a number of them to reach the mage but it only takes one to kill it. it's the way it should be. Mages are "nukers" after all. Does it suck being a footman that got nailed? sure. but it's the job we signed up for.. you don't want to be that person? Roll up a mage or an archer (the real mage killer). tactically speaking Melees should be powerful enough not to be ignored (ie don't let them get close to you) but not stand alone mass killers.

[/ QUOTE ]

This theory assures that the game will eventually devolve into just nukers/archers/buffers/healers.

There are very few people that are willing to waste tthe same amount of time (more actually due to the necessity of grouping and slower kill speed) to level a character that's considered to be 1/3 of a nuker/archer.

[Zephro_Carnelian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't really think melee are as underpowered as people make out...nukers are so **** fragile and easily killed.


[/ QUOTE ]

I play a melee, and played a melee on my pre-quit account, I agree with cimexusSH. Melees aren't that underpowered, and mages are not gods, melee are footsoldiers... sure it takes a number of them to reach the mage but it only takes one to kill it. it's the way it should be. Mages are "nukers" after all. Does it suck being a footman that got nailed? sure. but it's the job we signed up for.. you don't want to be that person? Roll up a mage or an archer (the real mage killer). tactically speaking Melees should be powerful enough not to be ignored (ie don't let them get close to you) but not stand alone mass killers.

[/ QUOTE ]

granted that should be the case with daggers and glads and woarlords etc but a tank is soupost to be able to charge in in frount of thoes and take dammage nbot get 3 shotted by a nuker thats there only use and as it stands there useless

[Rothyn]

I am going to take a surprising stance on this. I'm going to defend the developers.

You need to remember that the developers of this game are people just like us. Sometimes not all things can be forseen ahead of time. From what I understand, Lineage II has never been a finished product. It is an ongoing project. Given the complexity of this game, you cannot expect them to get it right the first time, because then you are insinuating that they are not human, and thusly, cannot make mistakes. However, they ARE human, and they CAN make mistakes. You may not like them, but mistakes do happen.

The reason that the game may or may not seem balanced is because of the complexity of the class system. There are five races, and a number of classes for each. Thirty one to be precise. Thirty one final classes, that are available for subclass, plus the generic starter classes, and their transition classes. Thirty one. I don't know about you, but that is difficult to juggle, as well as the other content in the game.

World of Warcraft has been called better balanced. Why? Because the classes are lot more simple. They only have small advantages, and most every class that goes over more than one race is pretty much the same.

Lineage II is a very unique game. They give it a level of complexity this high, so that it is more realistic, and it makes it the most challenging game on the market.

Give em a break. They're only human.


Cheers,

Rothyn/Rinalya

[ciprian]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to take a surprising stance on this. I'm going to defend the developers.


[/ QUOTE ]

kay

[ QUOTE ]

You need to remember that the developers of this game are people just like us. Sometimes not all things can be forseen ahead of time. From what I understand, Lineage II has never been a finished product. It is an ongoing project. Given the complexity of this game, you cannot expect them to get it right the first time, because then you are insinuating that they are not human, and thusly, cannot make mistakes. However, they ARE human, and they CAN make mistakes. You may not like them, but mistakes do happen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mistakes are not the issue here. Its the fact that they do not seem to realize that they have made a mistake and continue in the same direction.

[ QUOTE ]

The reason that the game may or may not seem balanced is because of the complexity of the class system. There are five races, and a number of classes for each. Thirty one to be precise. Thirty one final classes, that are available for subclass, plus the generic starter classes, and their transition classes. Thirty one. I don't know about you, but that is difficult to juggle, as well as the other content in the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

It does not take a math genius to figure out what happens when certain classes have higher DPS (sometimes 4 to 5 times higher) and also benefit from range they might, just might be unbalanced. But apparently it falls under "unforseen circumstances"


[ QUOTE ]

World of Warcraft has been called better balanced. Why? Because the classes are lot more simple. They only have small advantages, and most every class that goes over more than one race is pretty much the same.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats just utter bull. You do realize that the variety of gear and the talent sysem make WOW a much more difficult game to balance... In l2 every single class ultimately ends up with its own specific "best setup". I sometimes look at the people around me and all I see is this mass of clones.

[ QUOTE ]

Lineage II is a very unique game. They give it a level of complexity this high, so that it is more realistic, and it makes it the most challenging game on the market.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only two challenging thing about L2 are: the time investment and the harshness of some of the penalties you can incurr. The other is clan politics but the devs dont have much to do with that it's 100% player created.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to take a surprising stance on this. I'm going to defend the developers.

You need to remember that the developers of this game are people just like us. Sometimes not all things can be forseen ahead of time. From what I understand, Lineage II has never been a finished product. It is an ongoing project. Given the complexity of this game, you cannot expect them to get it right the first time, because then you are insinuating that they are not human, and thusly, cannot make mistakes. However, they ARE human, and they CAN make mistakes. You may not like them, but mistakes do happen.

The reason that the game may or may not seem balanced is because of the complexity of the class system. There are five races, and a number of classes for each. Thirty one to be precise. Thirty one final classes, that are available for subclass, plus the generic starter classes, and their transition classes. Thirty one. I don't know about you, but that is difficult to juggle, as well as the other content in the game.

World of Warcraft has been called better balanced. Why? Because the classes are lot more simple. They only have small advantages, and most every class that goes over more than one race is pretty much the same.

Lineage II is a very unique game. They give it a level of complexity this high, so that it is more realistic, and it makes it the most challenging game on the market.

Give em a break. They're only human.


Cheers,

Rothyn/Rinalya

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point and apparently someone understands whats going on. I agree, there are just so many classes that its hard to balance. People need to realize balance is cosidered as a whole in this game, all classes involved, not just one class vs. one class. If mages were not as powerful as they are right now then any group with a SwS and Prophet would smoke them outright. As seen in previous chronicles. I do believe the casting speed thing and Aura Flare and Cancel ruin a lot of balance but it is no where near as bad as people say. You want melee to be good in PvP, you must set them up correctly for PvP, unfortunately that set up is almost COMPLETELY opposite of PvE setup where nukers and archers PvE and PvP set ups are similar or exactly the same. You also have to accept the fact that they don't kill as fast as archers/nukers. People say it isn't balance that you need support to kill some classes but thats why support classes were created, to SUPPORT. By using these support classes it take MUCH more than 3 nukes to bring a melee down (except daggers which I'll admit are pretty much screwed if they are spotted).

So once again I'll put it simple. Its not game design that makes melee bad in PvP, its people -CON, not taking defensive buffs and simply not working s a team with proper support.

[soltyspl]

There're so many unbalances, illogical things and plainly broken things, that one could write a not so small novel about it. L2 could be 10x better game than it is, without even putting to much sweat into it (by adjusting plenty of server side db tables). Will it ? Rather not. Rabbit ears are plainly more important. And a new layer of grind that will make people cry after few hours to few days (all bots already support it, worry not).

It's been two years. With the developer team that for two whole years didn't say a single word to its playerbase. With a developer team that has never, ever disucussed anything (not even in Korea). With a developer team that has never, ever provided any feedback or explanations (not even in Korea). And most sadly - with a developer team that has never, ever used PTS like it should be used (and again - not even in Korea).

Posts about inbalances are as pointless as the whole suggestions forum. A thread will make you feel good, and that's all.

[ QUOTE ]
Is that really true? (re: LEs)

[/ QUOTE ]

EEs, and more precisely all LE classes are significantly overplayed in Korea, not becuase they are great, but because Koreans are fixated on their look. It's a pargon of beauty there. That's all there is to it.

[ QUOTE ]
Which leads to the conclusion that there is no problem with the balance in the eyes of a lange majority of the players, including the dev team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they simply don't care ? After all, the money is flowing, isn't it ? That's really what it is about. Not about making well balanced game, interesting for players, etc. It's about keeping profits on certain level.

[ QUOTE ]
So do you guys get a lot of feedback back from the devs about the issues we bring up? If so, how much are you allowed to share with the community?

[/ QUOTE ]

Over last two years, they've always been surprisingly silent when "feedback" question was asked. For obvious reason - there's none.

[ QUOTE ]
and it seems in it's current state L2 is very successful amoung the audience it was designed for

[/ QUOTE ]

Koreans play L2 primarily for the purpose of RMT. That's de-facto state whenever you like it or not. NA's catching up, but it still has a lot to catch. As funnily and ironically as it may sound.

And the only entity to blame is NC - they caused it with the design they put into the game.

[ QUOTE ]
They have the data of which classes are played to what level.

[/ QUOTE ]

So ?

An example: Everyone has [censored] of dwarf alts, often on separate accounts, because the devs can't even implement priv. shops and storage system properly, among few other things - despite being asked for two years to do so. Plus pro-farmers tend to use dwarves quite a bit.

Do you think they (NC) are insightful enough to see past that and realise that on average server there's a small 2 digit number of legit dwarves/class actually played as mains ? If not a 1 digit number ?

[ QUOTE ]
There were not many balance changes from C3 to C4... that must mean that the large majority of the players is happy with the balance as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make it sounds like if NC cared about opinion of Korean players.

If you remember, long time ago - around middle of 2004, Wae of l2center translated quite big thread from playforum titled "what players want ?". It was like carbon copy of [censored] on these boards - "leveling is boring", "no content", "variety sucks", "pets are useless", "evasion doesn't work", etc. etc.

Not much (except for worse) has changed since that time.


I'm still waiting for NC to fix Revival skill, that is beaten by a selfbuff, with <1/8th reuse timer and no trigger condition. NC ftw ! I'm sure in their eyes it's such a fine skill.

[ QUOTE ]
From what I understand, Lineage II has never been a finished product.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not an excuse for things like: bsps, certain set bonuses, acu sa, dye influence, strength of certain buffs. And tens of other completely illogical (naive ?) stuff they've added since C1 - dwarf nerfs in particular.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason that the game may or may not seem balanced is because of the complexity of the class system. There are five races, and a number of classes for each. ......

[/ QUOTE ]

Barely any of the major problems have been ever touched over last two years. Things that didn't work, were usually made worse, in one or the other way.

Balance of this game was in far, FAR, FAR better state in pre-prelude and prelude - that were considered beta. Of course it wasn't perfect - it required a few gentle alterations here and there. Not an introduction of bspses. The features that were added in C1-C4 have very little to do with what players ever wanted. And L2 as complex as you describe it ? Please...

Why do we [censored] about dev/design team ? Look at this: At early 40 levels imagine a player that wants to upgrade to lowest C grade armor, jewels and 1 weapon. To do so, he would be required to level to 5x and delevel to 4x few times (including his friends) to even hope to have all required parts, recipes and materials.

That was an obvious problem when players in Korean servers entered their 40+ age, for the first time (note that it was the time were drops and spoils were better than they are now). Was it because there were not enough crafters/spoilers ? Not at all. The problem lied (and still lies) in debilic spoils and drops. The "fix" ? A NPC shop with essential selection of lacking equipment. Reason of the problem (and THE reason why pro-farming services are essential to the survival of this game) not touched. First big nerf to dwarven professions. The most lazy "fix" one could ever think of.

That's a tip of the iceberg of "solutions" by NC. There're quite a few "pearls" added in every chronicle (C4 including), that make you wonder if NC design things like PayPal handles (http://paypalsucks.org/graphics/PPS-Cartoon1.gif) CS.

They are humans ? Sure. They should be working somewhere else though.

[Haygole]

soltyspl always brings a tear to my eye. I miss doing chillies in the Heine region with your little dwrf. LoL, I would almost fall asleep as me slaughtered everything in sight and racked up thousands and thousands of bones.

[Torqq]

[ QUOTE ]

My theory is that PvP victory is a lot less dependant on the class you play, the equipment you wear, and the weapon you use than is commonly thought. What matters in winning is the person at the keyboard.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your theory is wrong. Dagger classes have about the same HP and CP as nukers. Nukers do more damage than daggers and have a 900 range and have debuffs.

You need to experience real PVP my friend. Nukers are 500x better than non-C2 daggers in every PVP situation.

[Torqq]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you send them the concerns we have of the unbalanced gameplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The concerns and feedback from players are communicated frequently to the development team. This goes for a variety of topics, including gameplay balance. We appreciate all of the comments on the board that players provide, and we will continue to pass it along. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

Mistry, Are 95% of all DD classes, rerolls and subclasses in Korea archers and nukers like they are in NA?

This is a problem. Can you not see this?

[Torqq]

Anyone who has played in the C4 PTS Olympiad knows it's pretty balanced, even though mages seem to do the best. The big PVP problem comes from fully buffed parties, where BD, SWS, SE, and Prophet buffs come into play, and now in C4 super prophecy buff and summon buffs.

Ranged attacks have the inherit advantages of being able to shoot at a distance, changing to a new target and attacking without having to move far, if at all, and not having to worry about interfering terrain, player obstacles, and fleeing enemies when attacking a target. Every melee knows that you can only get in 1 special and maybe a swing or 2 if your target simple moves away. Ranged classes don't suffer from this problem AND they do 3 to 4 times the damage as melee based DD classes.

To keep the Olympiad balanced, they could change the way BD, SWS, prophecy and summon party buffs affect ranged attacks. I had the benefit of playing a fully buffed archer on the C4 PTS, with BD, SWS, Prophecy of Fire and the new Warlok buffs and I will tell you the problem between melee and ranged DDs get a LOOOOOOOOOOT worse in C4. My archer had over 4k patk and critted 3 of 4 times he fired, doing about 3.5k damage on average to players in top S-grade gear. The nuker that got all the mage buffs was doing around the same, and most of the time did more damage than this archer. This is messed up.

They need to change the way all these multiplying party buffs affect ranged attacks. When stacked up, they do way too much damage for also having the benefit of ranged attacks and avoiding the problem melees do where their target can simply move away to avoid attacks.

Fix your game NC, it's broken and you know it.

[EcronyteIDC]

I still have yet to have any one confirm this for me. But arent bsps not allowed in the olypiad? I would really like to know for sure, if they dont allow bsps then it would pretty much be an admision that they are as overpowered as many have said. And do what many people have said that they do, which is all but guarantee that debuffs land. We've all heard of nukers landing sleep through UD, I really want to get a friend to test this out, as well as test how many time they can sleep me consecutively being at equal level and comparable build. Then maybe try it with all the buffs I can get.

Along those lines, I was wondering. I have the equations for patk and matk, but I was wondering how do they decide if debuffs land? When sleep is cast how does the math figure out weither it should land or not?

[DeTyrantOrz]

OT but some one said it's all about the skills in l2, I'd say it's not entirely true, it's about skills AND equipment, and this is especially true for meleers. The problem that makes meleers harder to play isnt in the skills but the equipment, they are too **** hard to get.

[KimahriRonso]

[ QUOTE ]
OT but some one said it's all about the skills in l2, I'd say it's not entirely true, it's about skills AND equipment, and this is especially true for meleers. The problem that makes meleers harder to play isnt in the skills but the equipment, they are too **** hard to get.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.
Melees in top equipment get owned by ranged classes in rags.

[KimahriRonso]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to take a surprising stance on this. I'm going to defend the developers.

You need to remember that the developers of this game are people just like us. Sometimes not all things can be forseen ahead of time. From what I understand, Lineage II has never been a finished product. It is an ongoing project. Given the complexity of this game, you cannot expect them to get it right the first time, because then you are insinuating that they are not human, and thusly, cannot make mistakes. However, they ARE human, and they CAN make mistakes. You may not like them, but mistakes do happen.

The reason that the game may or may not seem balanced is because of the complexity of the class system. There are five races, and a number of classes for each. Thirty one to be precise. Thirty one final classes, that are available for subclass, plus the generic starter classes, and their transition classes. Thirty one. I don't know about you, but that is difficult to juggle, as well as the other content in the game.

World of Warcraft has been called better balanced. Why? Because the classes are lot more simple. They only have small advantages, and most every class that goes over more than one race is pretty much the same.

Lineage II is a very unique game. They give it a level of complexity this high, so that it is more realistic, and it makes it the most challenging game on the market.

Give em a break. They're only human.


Cheers,

Rothyn/Rinalya

[/ QUOTE ]

First of...
WoW is far more complex than L2 in terms of char/class customization (skill points distr., huge db of armors and weapons etc.)
WoW is far from balanced. Shamans own everyone.
WoW is not really a PVP mmorpg.

It is totaly unacceptable for lineage 2 to be unbalanced.
Classes and races are no where near customizable.
Every BD for example, at level 60 is exactly the same (skill, equipment wise)

You make 31 classes.
You can mathematicaly make them balanced.

One class does 2 dmg and has 1 def. The other has 2 def and does 1 dmg.

IT'S NOT DIFFICULT TO JUGGLE. It's all maths.

How ******ed is to have classes that do x3 the damage, have 5 debuffs, have 5 kinds of attack skills and make them ranged?

How is your intention to design a (balanced) pvp game, when you give some classes pvp skills and some others pve only skills?

The game has basic design flows.
Offence and defence is badly calculated in the game.
Ranged and melee is badly implemented in the game.

The biggest problem is that every time they decide to fix this, they make it WORSE. Thus the most balanced chronicle was when there wasn't one.

[Haygole]

Its not as easy as you make it sound, but I know what you are saying.

Of course you have to figure the whole picture, not just damage and defense, but I think that's the point you were trying to make.

Alot of people say that nukers do too much damage with their nukes. To me the problem is not the damage, its the DPS. I really really wish I could get a database of in game DPS across the board for all the classes. I would love to see the damage output averages over a minute or two. Others mmorpgs I've played have always had the nukers doing a ton of damage just like L2, but never could they dish it out anywhere close to this fast.

Through everything I've been reading the 3 things I think could make L2 a fun and exciting pvp game for everyone, and one that required much more strategy and party making than now are:

1.) A moderate reduction in the cast speed buffs/SAs
2.) Give tanks a skill to intercept pvp damage to party members since everyone hates the hate in pvp idea
3.) Leave dagger specials just as they are but let them go stealth


Okay, so the third one may just be me, but I think it would be a great addition. I talked about that one more somewhere else... hehe


Oh and

4.) Give EEs a 10k damage nuke once per day :)

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
2.) Give tanks a skill to intercept pvp damage to party members since everyone hates the hate in pvp idea


[/ QUOTE ]

Look closely at melee skills. Particular to this comment, check Vengeance's description. Also DD melees get a skill that can reflect debuffs. Also check out Shock Blast skill, it sounds brutal. Also lok at the Ripostle and Parry Stance skills. Also many melee will get skills that make enemies lose their target, though I think its only the Warlord that get a ranged one like this, but its also AoE :).

Its great mages get all these new cool skills and buffs but why doesn't anyone discuss new melee skills and buffs?

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2.) Give tanks a skill to intercept pvp damage to party members since everyone hates the hate in pvp idea


[/ QUOTE ]

Look closely at melee skills. Particular to this comment, check Vengeance's description. Also DD melees get a skill that can reflect debuffs. Also check out Shock Blast skill, it sounds brutal. Also lok at the Ripostle and Parry Stance skills. Also many melee will get skills that make enemies lose their target, though I think its only the Warlord that get a ranged one like this, but its also AoE :).

Its great mages get all these new cool skills and buffs but why doesn't anyone discuss new melee skills and buffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

But where are the melee skills where they can attack and instantly lower the target's p.def & evasion?

It seems only fair since the mages can lower a melee's resistance and do damage at the same time now.

[Taraza]

I agree there should be more debuffs towards mages. Things that melee classes get like lower casting speed, lower matk, etc. Hell archers AND melee AND mages get debuffs towards things like patk, accuracy, etc. Silence is the only answer but for some odd reason ignorant people seem to think a silenced mage doesn't help melee classes :p I don't care WHO csts silence, it disables them for everyone's benefit. But I will agree we need more debuffs or crippling effects to special attacks.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree there should be more debuffs towards mages. Things that melee classes get like lower casting speed, lower matk, etc. Hell archers AND melee AND mages get debuffs towards things like patk, accuracy, etc. Silence is the only answer but for some odd reason ignorant people seem to think a silenced mage doesn't help melee classes :p I don't care WHO csts silence, it disables them for everyone's benefit. But I will agree we need more debuffs or crippling effects to special attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the right thread to be bringing up your 'melees are grossly underpowered but they shouldn't feel bad because they sacrifice themselves for the glory of the mages and archers' argument.

But just to reiterate. Silence is a spell cast by mages. Therefore you are making it a mage vs mage fight when that is not the problem. We know that mage vs mage fights are more balanced because they have access to the same equipment/tattoos and have more balanced skills. They are not all equal but they each have their trade offs. There is no such balance when comparing melee to a mage.

So yes, I agree that a silenced mage is virtually helpless. But I point out that the fight was already slanted towards the side with the melee because it was essentially a 2 on 1 and the fight would probably go even better if it had just been 2 mages or a mage and an archer rather then a melee and a mage.

[Taraza]

through all my arguing in the past week I have been trying to bring up these key things:

Mages are not Gods in PvP, they have weaknesses

Melee are not useless, they have their purpose and its not necessarily killing. Also they should not get 3 shotted (except daggers :() like everyone seems to believe without a doubt.

And that this is a GROUP game. Of course a mage vs. melee isn't going to be balanced, it shouldn't be expected. Do I think melee groups could beat a mage group? yes, but its not likely becauase thats not how the game was designed. It can take ONE person casting something that could lead to 10+ rooted archers (in other words sitting ducks) or 10+ Silenced mages (useless sacks of meat with legs).

Honestly I don't think I'm getting through to YOU, but hopefully there are some melee out there taking some advice on how to better themselves in PvP.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
through all my arguing in the past week I have been trying to bring up these key things:

Mages are not Gods in PvP, they have weaknesses

Melee are not useless, they have their purpose and its not necessarily killing. Also they should not get 3 shotted (except daggers :() like everyone seems to believe without a doubt.

And that this is a GROUP game. Of course a mage vs. melee isn't going to be balanced, it shouldn't be expected. Do I think melee groups could beat a mage group? yes, but its not likely becauase thats not how the game was designed. It can take ONE person casting something that could lead to 10+ rooted archers (in other words sitting ducks) or 10+ Silenced mages (useless sacks of meat with legs).

Honestly I don't think I'm getting through to YOU, but hopefully there are some melee out there taking some advice on how to better themselves in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really a debate for a different thread. If you'd go to those threads you'd see why your argument is understood and debunked repeatedly. Thank you.

[Taraza]

the thing is my arguement haven't been debunked. Its just been other people posting about how a mage 3 shotted them or slept them. Sleep is nothing, thats what waking scrolls are for, and just by people saying mages 3 shot them say two things: they are much lower lvl than said nuker or they simply were not buffed or set up correctly. As far as I'm concerned nothing I have stated has been debunked.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is my arguement haven't been debunked. Its just been other people posting about how a mage 3 shotted them or slept them. Sleep is nothing, thats what waking scrolls are for, and just by people saying mages 3 shot them say two things: they are much lower lvl than said nuker or they simply were not buffed or set up correctly. As far as I'm concerned nothing I have stated has been debunked.

[/ QUOTE ]

You actually have admitted several times that melee is underpowered and at a distinct disadvantage. You then fall back on a few strange arguments which revolve around how its all okay because all melees have to do is get 2-3 buffers or mages/archers to assist them take down a mage. Your examples of balanced play are typically 2-5 people taking on 1 mage.

Those plans do indeed work but I don't think that's any indication that the game is balanced. You have actually agreed that the game is not balanced and then suggested that its okay because you have stated that you feel playing a melee fighter takes more skill. I won't get into that argument because I'm sure there are alot of archers and mages who would love to debate that with you. I just know that I've repeatedly pointed out the errors in your assumptions and theoretical scenarios and then you ignore the obvious flaws that are pointed out.

The conclusion that has been drawn in most of the threads is that there is an obvious power discrepancy between the classes but that is the developers' design so there is no reason to debate it whatsoever.

[Taraza]

its not balanced at all in the sense of comparing one class to another, that I admit, but as a whole its not that terribly unbalanced. Just because SwS buffs make a huge difference in helping a tyrant smoke a nuker doesn't mean 2 v 1. Mages go around with BD dances and SE buffs, I don't say that mage just 3v1 me because he had buffs. Dude, you are ridiculous, lol. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. However I'll keep going as long as I'm still at work and bored :)

[TimeCop]

Yeah some things are unbalanced in this game...

Note this is 1v1 PK/PVP

#1 Necromancer Silences Sorc, Sorc, or any other race owned who doesnt have silence...

#2 Archers Own Mages too easy, and are msot feared, if the mage does not get their spells off in time...

#3 Fighters/Mages dont even make 30% of what a Dwarf Does in adena a day...

Yes every class has a weakness, I agree with you on that, but some are kind of unbalanced...

For example If I palayed a necromancer, and you were a ranger, and and I got silence on you, and then slow, and i caught up to you, then lowerd your M. DEF, and P. Atk, and used potions if I really needed to, then I could really just suck the life out of you...

please also read my other topics...

Game Sugguestion about adena (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=511376&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post511376)

Adena Topic (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=questions&Number=509925&Fo rum=f31&Words=adena&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=509 925&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&ne werval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev =#Post509925)

No class is a (GOD) any class can die, but some are still unbalanced...

I have not played every class in this game, but based on what I have heard, and seen, some of it I think is unbalanced, and It may not be 100% right...

P.S We are the ones who pay for this game,we should be allowed to make some of our own changes, without us this game wouldnt exist if no one played it, and it might loose customers later on, and more of our sugguestions should be added to the game, they should have a voting system going on in the game, where you can press alt+B and vote, and 1 month after the vote, they calculate the percenatege, and or people from all servers, to see if it wins, and if it wins they fix the problem people dont like, but and we all know NC, NA own this server, we we do not own it, it says this in the User Agreement, NC owns our characters, NC could delete our characters if they wanted without any reason, but they wouldn't this is just an example...

If we do not like it I guess we should all just quit, because NC probabily wont do anything about it...

[Orka]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah some things are unbalanced in this game...

Note this is 1v1 PK/PVP

#1 Necromancer Silences Sorc, Sorc, or any other race owned who doesnt have silence...

#2 Archers Own Mages too easy, and are msot feared, if the mage does not get their spells off in time...

#3 Fighters/Mages dont even make 30% of what a Dwarf Does in adena a day...

Yes every class has a weakness, I agree with you on that, but some are kind of unbalanced...

For example If I palayed a necromancer, and you were a ranger, and and I got silence on you, and then slow, and i caught up to you, then lowerd your M. DEF, and P. Atk, and used potions if I really needed to, then I could really just suck the life out of you...

please also read my other topics...

Game Sugguestion about adena (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=511376&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post511376)

Adena Topic (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=questions&Number=509925&Fo rum=f31&Words=adena&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=509 925&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&ne werval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev =#Post509925)

No class is a (GOD) any class can die, but some are still unbalanced...

I have not played every class in this game, but based on what I have heard, and seen, some of it I think is unbalanced, and It may not be 100% right...

P.S We are the ones who pay for this game,we should be allowed to make some of our own changes, without us this game wouldnt exist if no one played it, and it might loose customers later on, and more of our sugguestions should be added to the game, they should have a voting system going on in the game, where you can press alt+B and vote, and 1 month after the vote, they calculate the percenatege, and or people from all servers, to see if it wins, and if it wins they fix the problem people dont like, but and we all know NC, NA own this server, we we do not own it, it says this in the User Agreement, NC owns our characters, NC could delete our characters if they wanted without any reason, but they wouldn't this is just an example...

If we do not like it I guess we should all just quit, because NC probabily wont do anything about it...

[/ QUOTE ]

you agian ? have you actually made a character over 20 ?

silencing a ranger ? hahaha... sure waste your time :) in that time the archer got 3 crits inside of you, which means game over. slow ? i believe endgame your nukers and his arrows are same range so slowing him wont help you much... really.. it wont.. archers are mage killers, and espcially if you play that mage, i`ll put all my money on the archer :p

"3 Fighters/Mages dont even make 30% of what a Dwarf Does in adena a day... " then make a dwarf lol... dwarfs got 0 fighting ability but being meatshields, no skills but making money, AND with craftshops you can craft too, and if you are in a clan im sure y ou can even craft for free.. wow...

really get a character you like over 60 and try again

[PleChan]

[ QUOTE ]
#3 Fighters/Mages dont even make 30% of what a Dwarf Does in adena a day...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to go to much into detail to this topic but I can say this much your faaaaaaaaaar wrong. First of let me take up a few things theres way more things then this.

First some BH stuff:
#1. About share things including spoils voila your group get as much items partying the dwarf as the dwarf get, the dwarf get 0% MORE then you in this case. Sure they can solo, question is, how well does a dwarf solo? I can fill you in there, WE CAN'T!!!

#2 Is BH's trully needed? No not really only at lower lv's but not at high levels, it's a BIG BIG NO, 60+ BH's ? HAH THEY ARE USELESS, not needed. Why? All recs is quest only, so is most of the key items. Mats? Sure no problem do manor!

#3, And yet again the manor system, give 5-10 times more mats back under teh same time you the dwarf spoil it.... yeah you figure.

WS stuff:
#1. Fist of, since hte introdusion of craft shop ws have had a pain in the *** to earn cash, sure it's DOABLE but is it any fast money? Your beter off spendign that time hunting for a group then sitt your *** and hope you earn a few adena in a craft shop.
They destroyed the entire purpose of find trusted dwarfs to put your money in.

#2 Recipes COST TONS. Yes belvie it or not, but WS need to buy the recipe first and have it in there recipe book befor youc an craft it, recipes cna go up as high as 100m just so you know.

As a site note, is it possibel to earn cash as an WS? Oh yes it is but trust me your beter off spending that time doing the manor system then crafting as crafting is pointless.

oh and I just mentioned a very FEW things about this, and for once, DWARFS do NOT get more cahs then ANY other class out there in the game, learn how to play it and you see how you can get good income per day, Myself geting 1-2m per day true manor system. yes I got an WS yes I got an BH but nowhere close as much cash gained by them as from the manor system.

In fact it's probobly the oposit, by the fact how hard it is for an dwarf to get into a group, other easely get in and get cash and so on........

So since everyoen can use and earn as much cash as an dwarf can, now tell us, WHERE IS OUR DWARF SKILLS!!!!! ??? WE WANT TO USE THOES TO!

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
its not balanced at all in the sense of comparing one class to another, that I admit, but as a whole its not that terribly unbalanced. Just because SwS buffs make a huge difference in helping a tyrant smoke a nuker doesn't mean 2 v 1. Mages go around with BD dances and SE buffs, I don't say that mage just 3v1 me because he had buffs. Dude, you are ridiculous, lol. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. However I'll keep going as long as I'm still at work and bored :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah if a Mage is going around with BD & SE buffs then its the mage enhanced far beyond what they're normally capable of doing. That makes it the combined effort of the additional classes plus the mage.

A 1v1 fight means only the buffs and modifications that a character can do alone. Certain classes focus almost entirely on buffs which means they've done their job without having to do anything else. That means that a buffed character is reaping the benefits of another character and can no longer claim they did anything on their own.

Your whole theory of group combat is flawed anyway because a pvp group is still better off selecting a mage or an archer for their group. The same groups with a ranged damage dealer instead of your melee example (that's going to go fight mages 1v1 with 4 people buffing them) would accomplish far more.

So yes, you have been debunked but you don't understand enough to grasp that you're wrong.

[Yorgos]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a Lineage 1 player, I realise the NA team really doesn't have developers, all the code comes here from Korea and you just add their code to our game. I just want to know if the concerns of melee being terrible in pvp is communicated in any way to the Korean dev teams? You guys have meetings with them right? Do you send them the concerns we have of the unbalanced gameplay?


[/ QUOTE ]

It has always been my impression that L2 classes all have their advantages and disadvantages. A bounty hunter or a warsmith will indeed suck in PvP. On the other hand they have exclusives skills that make them money-makers. Some classes are better for PvE some better for PvP situations.

PvP is a very important aspect of the game. But it's not all there is, is it now? You cant take out a raid boss only with tankers or only with healers or only with nukers. You need them all acting in a coordinated fashion.

[soltyspl]

[ QUOTE ]
On
the other hand they have exclusives skills that make them money-makers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe in NCSoft's promotion materials. And in noob-stage age of servers up to lvl40. And before all the dwarf nerfs that happend across C1 - C4 chronicles.

[Taraza]

I remember in C3 release dwarves got hit HARD with a spoil nerf. Instead of spoiling tons of items like they used to it went down. This was NOT in patch notes. Maybe they'll change it back :). I wouldn't count on it but you never know. NC Soft has NEVER released complete patch notes. There have always been TONS of things missed.

[Torqq]

Players gravitate towards the most powerful classes. There's a reason 90% of all DD class and subclasses are nukers or archers.

NC, you are BLIND not to see a problem here.

[Xanthus_]

[ QUOTE ]
NC Soft has NEVER released complete patch notes. There have always been TONS of things missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

For example:

Evasion gets it's bite back in C4. This was originally reported by Korean players as a 'bug': "555, I can't hit the mobs, what gives??"

Dagger land rate significantly improved in C4. This has been verified by HOARDES of people who played daggers on the PTS. Among this was also uncomfirmed rumors of damage increases.

And much more! :)

[Caleria]

Excuse me? Why do they leave the good things out of the patch notes? o_O

*confuzzled*

Cal

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
Excuse me? Why do they leave the good things out of the patch notes? o_O

*confuzzled*

Cal

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been done EVERY chronicle so far. I believe some of these changes are last minite, hell maybe even from test server suggestions, so they never bother to release the info. There were some VERY important balance issue changes too that never got noted. For example changing Sword Singer's Song of Invocation, although they did mention making player skills Dark magic specific they just never mentioned how to resist it :p. It took me a month to even notice. So what I suggest is that when C4 does go live check all descriptions and stats and see if anything visable has changed.

[xLance]

I didn't read any of the replies but I'd like to say this:

tbh L2 needs to do a big overhaul in the way skills are distributed. Skills are for a big factor what makes a game and it's classes attractive to people. I'm not talking about the usual nerf this overpower that and change this and that by 2%. I mean a completely new look at things.

Look at 2 of the hottest topics these days: Necros and tanks. If you really look at the core of both discussions (overpowered vs underpowered) and you see what people write about; it's all skills! Take a Necro. In C4 Necros can pretty much scroll trough their skills page. Some tanks barely have 3 rows. Isn't that already a sign of something beeing completely out of place?
Then another thing on the same subject. Where's the reward in beeing a typical melee character who hustles all day in dungeons and towers, taking 10-30sec to kill a mob for 9000xp, when a Necro just comes up and 1shots mobs for the same ammount? I really don't blame anyone for choosing a Necro even if it's for such reasons alone. It just doesn't make sense to have characters who almost spend minutes fighting 1 mob, while another character (10+ levels lower) can come up and 1shot that same mob.

Another funny thing I've noticed about balancing and to prove character skills are really what makes the player; in L2, offense > defense. If you're a defensive class it basically means your going to die. But slower. It's so obvious it's not even funny:

Paladin vs Dark Avenger
Swordsinger vs Bladedancer
Bishop vs Prophet

You can be so skilled and experienced with your class as you want, if your both on the same stats and there's an offensive version of your class he will kill you. End. Things shouldn't be that way imo =/ who is their to blame for the massive nuker/archer subs/rerolls if the game makes it that way?

Alot of next gen MMO's are talking about such issues and adapting to it in their "philosophy" pages, so it's clear these things aren't just random toughts and suggestions from a unhappy players. Developers know it's up and making ppl unhappy in their current games, and their reacting to it in their new games. Wether it works out or not, only time will tell :)

L2 would be a whole more interesting game if classes got more skills distributed/balanced between them. Wouldn't most melee die for the day they could scrolls trough their skills page? :) (not talking about Chronicle 20) Sometimes I pity certain classes when I'm on my Necro.. when playing around at buff spots or just hanging out, people flag at eachother and like to spam all kinds of funny/harmless skills at eachother. But what can -for example- a Temple Knight do to have fun? Entangle is their *only* skill, lol! I'd never want to live such a bitter existance.

There's also hope tho :) early on it was said on Korean forums that this C4 update isn't the complete package yet. There's still new castles to come, high S grade is missing, and most important-- they talked about adding more pre-75 skills to classes.

We'll see where the ship lands :)

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
Another funny thing I've noticed about balancing and to prove character skills are really what makes the player; in L2, offense > defense. If you're a defensive class it basically means your going to die. But slower. It's so obvious it's not even funny:

Paladin vs Dark Avenger
Swordsinger vs Bladedancer
Bishop vs Prophet

You can be so skilled and experienced with your class as you want, if your both on the same stats and there's an offensive version of your class he will kill you. End. Things shouldn't be that way imo =/ who is their to blame for the massive nuker/archer subs/rerolls if the game makes it that way?


[/ QUOTE ]

If this were completely true then Blade Dancers would be able to beat SwS all the time, which just isn't true. I agree that offense is everything in PvE because people want to kill faster and XP faster and since mobs are so dumb and senseless this is fine. However in PvP defense goes a long ways especially for melee classes. And some classes were NEVER meant to kill (ie tanks). But they can stun, debuff, heal, summon, and really mess things up for other classes. And 3rd class tanks actually do get a skill that aggros even players. Also get many skills that make players lose their target.

As of C3 melee do not have it THAT bad. C4.....we'll have to see. PTS isn't the finished product. We'll have to see how new buffs (yes even defense ones in there too :eek:) pan out. So far everyone has concentrated on what nukers get and nothing on new skills melee has.

[xLance]

[ QUOTE ]
So far everyone has concentrated on what nukers get and nothing on new skills melee has.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it's a PvP game. Things are usually judged by their PvP performance in the first place. And as for the unhappy melee'ers; of course their unhappy. What's the point in having 9999patk/pdef/crit power/chance/evasion/1 hit KO/whatever when a Necro just paralyzes you? Or you get slowed so badly even Elpy's run faster than you? (all while getting hit for a steady 1000-3000dmg per second from 900 range)

[EcronyteIDC]

[ QUOTE ]
However in PvP defense goes a long ways especially for melee classes. And some classes were NEVER meant to kill (ie tanks). But they can stun, debuff, heal, summon, and really mess things up for other classes

[/ QUOTE ]

Its easy to get the impression that tanks were never meant to kill. Because to us if it isnt dishing out 1k damage a second it was designed to die. Or at very least was made to be a minor annoyance (we perform our roll, as people like to say). But we are supposed to do lesser damage over a longer period of time. people who do higher damage are supposed to do it over a shorter period of time, they are soft targets, its the balance. The thing is that if you cant get to your target it doesnt matter how soft they are. If mdef actually meant anything anymore then tanks would actually be a threat again (remember when DA was one of the better PvP classes) as would all Melee DDs.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However in PvP defense goes a long ways especially for melee classes. And some classes were NEVER meant to kill (ie tanks). But they can stun, debuff, heal, summon, and really mess things up for other classes

[/ QUOTE ]

Its easy to get the impression that tanks were never meant to kill. Because to us if it isnt dishing out 1k damage a second it was designed to die. Or at very least was made to be a minor annoyance (we perform our roll, as people like to say). But we are supposed to do lesser damage over a longer period of time. people who do higher damage are supposed to do it over a shorter period of time, they are soft targets, its the balance. The thing is that if you cant get to your target it doesnt matter how soft they are. If mdef actually meant anything anymore then tanks would actually be a threat again (remember when DA was one of the better PvP classes) as would all Melee DDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct buffs can really change things. If they nerfed mages nuke damage at all then ANYONE with correct buffs would smoke nukers. People exagerate, nukers do not one hit often at all. People don't set up their melee class for PvP, they have it set for PvE.

[Caleria]

"Tanks are not meant to kill anyone..."

Uh-huh... has anyone ever asked the question... why?

Why are tanks not supposed to win a fight?

Is there any reason? Help me out please, I don't get it.

Cal

PS: And I don't mean "support other classes in mass-pvp blabla", I mean 1 vs 1.

[Zeus747]

Well not that Im not positive on what they should do with nukers damage but thats whats not killing melee. What is hurting melee is mages having the robe set cast speed bonus, acumen cast speed on weapon and bsps to increase cast speed even more. All those 3 help mages cast 3 nukes whiting a matter of a couple seconds so add to the fact that mages nukes hurt for btw 1300 to 2000 damage per nuke doesnt help along with the cast speed. Now if they want to keep it like that then for melee they better add more resistance to magic or what they can do is give melee the same bonuses. Melee should get +15 percent haste from armor and +15 percent haste from a weapon.

What ponders me is why people complained about daggers Might mortal when all it did was increase a daggers land rate to 70 to 80 percent. While the Acumen is 100 times worse because it increases a mages casting speed by 15 percent add that with the armor bonus another 15 percent add that with bsps for faster casting speed and add that with tatoos and your looking at a 40 to 50 percent cast speed increase. Now if mages damage was lower like say doing damage of 700 to 900 per spell then i can understand the fast cast speed. But dishing out 1300 to 2000 damage per spell I really dont understand why they implement the fast cast speed.

Finally you have to look at it now and mages and archers are overpowered. what makes a nuker and archer advantageous to a melee?????? Can you guess what it is? Thats right the 900 range advantage. Most melee classes have a tough time reaching a mage or archer in the game . Now that is fine but why make it worse? You ask how they make it worse? Well why implement root, sleep, slow. These spells I mentioned should be kept for pve only. In pvp they dont belong because not only does the mage have an advantage of hitting you for 1300 to 2000 damage from a distance they now have the ability to reduce your run speed? Why? I think that is rediculous. So to sum um my post I dont think its so much the damage (not sure what they should do with damage) but more so its nukers having 3 things to raise the cast speed by 50 to 60 percent. Thats whats killing all the other classes. I say just remove acumen and bonus on armors and keep bsps. BSps still increase nukers damage by a lot and it also increases the attackspeed. So just keeping bsps would be good to increase atk speed. As of right now its too extreme/overkill.

[Xanthus_]

I think they should just take out 90% of slow spells and reduce mob speed to a reasonable range.
Seriously, why is an ORC mob faster than a LE??

It's just ******ed...


...but now I'm off topic...**** you.

[Torg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However in PvP defense goes a long ways especially for melee classes. And some classes were NEVER meant to kill (ie tanks). But they can stun, debuff, heal, summon, and really mess things up for other classes

[/ QUOTE ]

Its easy to get the impression that tanks were never meant to kill. Because to us if it isnt dishing out 1k damage a second it was designed to die. Or at very least was made to be a minor annoyance (we perform our roll, as people like to say). But we are supposed to do lesser damage over a longer period of time. people who do higher damage are supposed to do it over a shorter period of time, they are soft targets, its the balance. The thing is that if you cant get to your target it doesnt matter how soft they are. If mdef actually meant anything anymore then tanks would actually be a threat again (remember when DA was one of the better PvP classes) as would all Melee DDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct buffs can really change things. If they nerfed mages nuke damage at all then ANYONE with correct buffs would smoke nukers. People exagerate, nukers do not one hit often at all. People don't set up their melee class for PvP, they have it set for PvE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again the melee with his 4 buffer friends vs 1 mage argument!

We've already proven that if you have 5 people going against 5 mages/archers... the 5 melee/buffers will die. End of story. So you can drop your exotic buff collection examples because they don't pertain to the game that the majority play. Do you know how many SwS I've met on Erica? Three. I can assure you that they're never in the melee groups for siege. The mages and archers can do far more with the defense boost then the melee can.

Melees are outclassed by all ranged damage in PVP. You've admitted it in a few posts now but you continue to argue for no apparent reason. The world is round, the earth goes around the sun and melees are underpowered in comparison. Get over it.
Are you just arguing because you put so much time into levelling a SwS to 75?

[Torqq]

It's pretty obvious there is a problem when everyone knows in a fight of equal numbers the side with the least number of melee DDs will win every time with players who know how to play this game.

Take any base PVP party composition of healer, buffer, SWS, and BD, and try to convice yourself why you would ever want to have reaplace a nuker or archer with any of the melee DD classes. If you know how to play this game then you never would choose any of the melee DD classes. No debate here, it's just simple PVP results.