Requesting Advice From ALL Knight Classes Please

[Kenza]

Greetings, everyone. I was looking through the Knight class list and was wondering which would suite me best. I usually play a Paladin type of tank when I play one. Going through the skill lists and looking at stat balancing, I believe my best bet would be a Human or Elven Knight. My main concern is, that I want to be THE tank, not second best due to skills or stats. Assuming each Knight has the same top-notch gear with no tatoos (please feel free to make tat suggestions/evaluations), which would most likely be chosen to tank? I would assume the Human Paladin or the Elven Temple Knight, based on stats and skills. However, from the skill list, it seems that the Elf doesn't have a stun, unless I've missed it. I already have a 22 Human Warrior, so I don't really want to make another Human, but they seem to be the best choice, unless the life cubic helps the Elf maintain HP better. I'll give a basic description of my conclusions and a detailed explination of my expectations based on those conclusions. I'm open to commenting or corrections if I am mistaken on my findings.

Those who've read my first post requesting information already know that I'm very long-winded, and detailed. Please, forgive me, your time is most appreciated. (If you wish to skip my long-winded details, simply read the expectations marked with a "-".)

I'll list their unique abilities/differences that I've noticed.

[color=green]Human (Paladin):[color=orange] Shield Stun lands most often and lasts longer (I think) than Dark Elf's lightning strike, not to mention they get it at a much lower level than the Dark Elf. They seem to have the most P.Def skills, but one sacrifices evasion to gain that defense. Heals about the same as TK, but no cubic. Stronger undead defense than other Knights. As a Human their main advantage is their Strength(40) and Constitution(42).

-I would expect the Paladin to be one of the top tanks, based on thier Constitution, Def. Skills, and heals.

[color=green]Elf (Temple Knight):[color=orange] Doesn't have a stun that I've seen, but does have a charm (which I'm still confused if it keeps mobs from agroing or if it prevents mobs from attacking on accasion). Has a self-buff for Defense w/o a penalty, same as the Dark Elf. Heals about the same as a Paladin, but has a life cubic to help heal, or a storm cubic for extra damage. Like the Paladin, they get stronger undead defense than non-pally type tanks. Their Advantage as an Elf is their high Dex(35) and Wit(26), but lower Constitution(36) than the Human, but not as bad as the Dark Elf's, which is 32.

-I would expect the Elf to be one of the top two tanks, next to the Paladin, based on it's self-P.Def buff, passive M.Def buffs, heals, and higher Dexterity. I almost forgot that Elves also get innate faster casting than other races from what I understand.

[color=green]Dark Elf (Shillien Knight):[color=orange] Good debuffs, including: Snare, Hex, P.atk down, P.def down, bleed, poison, ae poison. Drains HP for damage and self-healing. They can train their Drains more than a Paladin or TK can train their heals, but they still can't compare to the base power of the heals (w/o high INT or M.atk?). They stun using a lighting strike attack, but from what I understand it is resisted easier since it is spell based, and doesn't last as long as a Human's Shield Stun. Like the TK, they get a Defense and Attack Aura w/o penalty. They drain corpses to replenish life, or use them to poison an area of enemies. They summon vampiric cubics to drain life and give it to the Knight as an extra heal (again not as strong as a heal from a life cubic). They may also summon poison cubics for extra damage. As a Dark Elf their advantage would be their high Strength(41) and Dexterity(34), but very low Constitution(32) compared to the Elf(36) and Human(42).

-I would expect these to be one of the best tanks for groups purely because they can deal good damage with their skills/strength/int as well as take a hit.

[color=green]Human (Dark Avenger):[color=orange] Much like the SK, they get drains about the same strength for damage/heals. Their pet panther I hear does some good damage, but they don't do so hot themselves. Their pet takes crystals to summon and maintain, however. They get Shield Stun as a Knight, like the Paladin's. As a Human their main advantage is their Strength(40) and Constitution(42).

-I would expect these to be the best tank for groups who want offensive tank, but more balanced in defense because of their def skills and constitution(42). Their pet deals the damage for them so they can focus more on being defensive.


Based on my own findings/oppinions I've provided, and your own experiences, which of these tanks usually turns out to be the best for highend groups and raids (mainly raids). If you want, feel free to give a little detail about how Warriors do in the tanking area as well.

Thank you for your time. All comments, oppinions, or corrections of any mistake I've made, are greatly appreciated.

[Box_of_Fox]

First, let me tell you that you have a great analyzing (sp?) skills ^.^

Also, tell me what you want exactly. I'll provide the generalizations of each tank class--

Paladin-- Slightly gimped. They make fine tanks but can't quite deal the same damage that other tanks can deal. Decent against archers. Make the undead cry.

DA-- Lacking slightly defense-wise but this is easily made up with more damage-dealing (and health) due to their other abilities and summon. The summon is extremely expensive C4, don't expect to see it used in PvE that much.

TK-- Considered to be one of the more gimped tanks. Which is unfortunate because they are "the" tank-- all defense. ALL defense. They'd be gods against archers in PvP if they could deal a little bit more damage. They make perfect tanks, otherwise. Their stats make them a generally good class passive-wise. High running speed/attack speed/critical for a tank.

SK-- One of the more popular tanks. Mostly because they are good at PvP for a tank. Their cubics can be expensive but generally help them DD more. They deal nice, high damage and their lightning strike can work more than one could expect due to their high INT.

[TukumiSushi]

This is a very good thread about tanks, should answer a lot of your questions
The unofficial tank thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=391682&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1)

From what you say you've got a level 22 warrior, did you mean level 22 knight? Becuase warriors can't become DAs or Palis, they can only become gladiators or warlords.

[Amys]

great info on abilities there, nothing i have to add to it... one or two things i do have to add, at least the way they work on my server (Devianne) is, if your looking for groups pally or DA would probably be your best bet... elf and darkelf tank classes are usually looked over in favor of the human ones as far as tank, and usually set as a reserve tank or gimped DD... again, i only play on Devianne so it may be different on other servers, although thats doubtful from my experience :P

[Veansa]

One small thing.

If Lightning strike does land, its a 2 min paralize ( i belive ).

But it doesnt land that often.

[Lersondaya]

if all your interested in doing is being a meatshield, Paladin is probably the way to go, but there attack skills are very limited, don't expect to kill much as one. Paladins also benefit from a higher Mdef than most tanks.

I jsut made a Shillien Knight myself, and I like it a lot.

[Jute]

One key part of his post, however, is wanting to be chosen for groups.

Which one of the tanks, if they were all lined up in a row, would your group pick?

[Kenza]

First off, thanks to everyone for your replies and insight. Thanks for that link, Tukumi, it's helped me in my analysis. I haven't had a chance to view all of the posts there, yet, however. Finally, no, I meant I have a 22 Warrior. What I was getting at was that I'd rather not have to make another Human (unless Human's make the best tanks, which is what I'm afraid of), for that would be redundant.

Now, to answer you, Fox. What do I want in a tank? I want defense, agro, and survivability. I want to tank Raid mobs and be THE best tank (assuming they're all lined up with equal gear, with and without tattoos) for the job. I know there will be some mobs one Knight is better at than the other, but in general, stat wise (including active/passive skills and racial traits), which would generally be chosen to be the one to tank?

[Box_of_Fox]

A raid boss tank, the leader of leaders. I see.

I understand that you don't want to do a human again, so I really think you should make an SK. They are:

A. Often wanted for groups
B. Do well in PvP for a tank
C. Can keep aggro pretty nicely. In raids, I'd argue that most tanks are about equal.
D. Can survive well.

Edit: I just had to add-- whenever my alliances did raids, the tank was determined not by class but by level/armor/weapon. Raid wise, we did whoever had the most pdef/health. Which, admittedly, tended to be human tanks. However, I don't want you to have to go through the whole process of making another human just for the sake of raids. Based on your playstyle I think you'll enjoy the SK very much.

[PavlovsDog]

The best raid set up by far is Paladin with -9 Str +5 Dex +4 Con, and if the Raid Boss is undead... even better.

The DA does not deal more damage than the Paladin unless the DA has his cat out, then he loses (30%?) xp.

All classes have their +'s and -'s, and to be THE BEST tank, that depends on you, not the class.

[Kenza]

WARNING! Extremely long post ahead! Not for the faint of heart, or those who get bored easily! Proceed at your own risk! (lol)[color=orange]

Before I begin, I'd like to add that I began typing this before Pavlov posted, so I appologise that your oppinion was over-looked in my calculations. I ignored +dex completely, but I'm sure you can find a few setups in here that are similiar in that respect.

I actually would like to make an SK, but mainly for DD, which again would be redundant since I plan on going Warlord. I would really like to play a TK, I think, but I'd have to completely gimp their str AND dex to match the constitution a Human can pump out by only losing a mere 8 strength. The low constitution of an SK can be made up, but still fall slightly behind a Elf's unless they too gimp themselves.

I bought the Collector's Edition, which came with Prima's Beginner's Guide* (Yes, I know, half of it is wrong, but I mainly use it for what I'm doing now, stat analysis and research conclusion/hypothesis). I've been looking through it and calculating different tattoo/symbol combinations that the three Races of Knights could use to maximize their Constitution. Keep in mind the basis for my balancing strategy is that a Human will lose 8 Strength, for 8 Constitution, leaving them with 32STR and 50CON.

[color=green]Stat Balancing Analysis:[color=orange]
*For argumental purposes, we will assume the Guide is correct and that each point of constitution adds 75 HP each (this is my own calculating number, again, for argumental purposes).

Now, I know nothing of tattoos and symbols, so keep that in mind as I am assuming all of these setups are possible, which I could easily be mistaken and I'll admit it if I am, and re-calculate based on the limitations on tats and symbols.

[color=green]Human Paladin/ Dark Avenger:[color=orange] -8 STR, +8 CON. Final Stats: 32STR, 30DEX, 50CON, 21INT, 25MEN, 11WIT
The Human would be going from 4937HP to 5537HP at Lv80 with this setup.

[color=green]Elven Temple Knight:[color=orange] There are a few different combinations I've came up with that will add constitution while lowering strength and/or dexterity, but in order to match the Human, they would need to gimp their stats completely.

1. Using the Human's setup as a basis for lowering our strength, we'll use a -4STR, +4CON setup, which would bring their HP up from 4437 to 4737 at Lv80. Final Stats: 32STR, 35DEX, 40CON, 23INT, 26MEN, 14WIT.

2. Another setup we could use would be -4STR, -2DEX, +6CON, which would give us an extra 150HP and bringing our HP total up to 4887. Final Stats: 32STR, 33DEX, 42CON, 23INT, 26MEN, 14WIT.

3. Finally, the uber gimping of the Elf's stats to try to close the gap between their HP and the Human's. We'll use a -6STR, -5DEX, +11CON setup bringing our HP up even more up to 5262, which is still behind the Human by around 275HP. Final Stats: 30STR, 30DEX, 47CON, 23INT, 26MEN, 14WIT.

[color=green]Shillien Knight:[color=orange] Their low constitution hinders them to no end, I would honestly expect them to (and from what I've heard, they would) be the final choice as a Raid Tank as their HP would be around 700HP less than a Human's (both stats non-augmented). There are a couple stat setups that can alter this with little tweaking, but they'll still be behind both the Elf and the Human unless they give up enough STR to go down to the overly gimp total of 30. Given all of these things, the Dark Elf is actually the best of the two Elves to balance with, since their STR is greater, they can lose more STR before having to lose DEX to match the Elf or attempt at matching the Human.

1. We'll begin by lowering their STR by 9, and adding that to their CON. Their base HP at Lv80, would go up from 4187 to 4862. Final Stats: 32STR, 34DEX, 41CON, 25INT, 26MEN, 12WIT.

2. Now, if we were to lower their DEX down to match that of a Human's, we'd see a setup like this: -9STR, -4DEX, +13CON. This would bring their HP up from 4862 to 5162, just behind the Elf, but with STR to spare. Final Stats: 32STR, 30DEX, 45CON, 25INT, 26MEN, 12WIT.

3. Finally, if we were to lower the Dark Elf's STR to match the Elf's setup at 30, we'd see -11STR, -4DEX, +15CON, which would end up topping the Elf (if the guide and my CON X-factor was correct) with 5312 as their final total, pulling up under the Human by around 225HP difference. Final Stats: 30STR, 30DEX, 47CON, 25INT, 26MEN, 12WIT.

[color=green]Note:[color=orange] The Human could do the same as the Elves and lower their STR to 30 as well, upping their HP that much more.

Keep in mind here, that I used a random, possible number for the CON increase per-point and that these are possible setups one could use to help balance the Knights stats (mainly HP). The idea of playing an Elf or Dark Elf, however, I would think, would partly be that they have a higher base DEX for an increased evasion rate over the Human, which could possibly make them even in that respect, that if they don't get hit, they wouldn't need the extra HP to begin with.

[color=green]In conclusion:[color=orange]
Looking only at their stats and ignoring all active/passive skills, I would expect the tank order (fully gimped stat setup for max con) to look something like this: Paladin/Dark Avenger > Shillien Knight/Temple Knight. *sigh* Exactly what I've been afraid of, but I seem to be attracted to the underdogs and try to perfect them above their limitations (which you can't break limits in a game, unfortunately).

I'm sure someone has something they'd like to add or that I'm leaving out. If you look at the classes in their max'd CON setups, they actually are very close to being equal, which would make what you said, ("In raids, I'd argue that most tanks are about equal") true, Fox.

Again, this is all assuming that you can have these setups in-game without going over a set limitation on tattoos and what not, so please, feel free to correct any mistakes or miss-calculations I've made here.

Thank you all for your continued interest, advice, and insight. I am greatly appreciative of your time and thoughts.

[Freakazoid]

First of all, dont roll a tank... they are erm... of limited use. At 60+ the situation is the following:
- a single archer crit generates more hate then your hate skill
- groups just need to pool enough DD power, there is no need for a real tank
- raids may prefer in general a tank (one!), but at least single mob raids can also be done by kiting mages
- Tanks only use in PvP is to flag first, they have no use in sieges what-so-ever and are generally ignored and killed last

L2 favors ranged classes by design and if you find yourself at lvl65 rerolling - you've been warned.

In terms of raid tanking Human tanks simply have the hp advantage, thus giving healers more time to (re)act and making % heals more effective. For PvP and PvE in general i'd say SK, as its here all about damage dealing.

[Taraza]

Unless you have your heart set on being the big, badass raid tank you should go SK. Really only raiding is their true downfall, but it is perfectly possible to raid with them if you have really good healers and take advantage of SwS buffs and such as well as EE buffs. People underestimate EE shield buffs, people are such fools that for the longest time they believed Advanced Block just added to block rate :p, it actually makes the damage you block greater so when you block you take MUCH less damage. And SKs and TKs happen to excel in blocking as well. Also taking the most damage isn't ALWAYS bad. With Song of Vengeance and Blazing/Freezing skin lvl 3 (or Chant of Revenge 3) you will deflect roughly 35% of damage taken. Raid mob hits you for 300 damage, you deflect 100 damage. I know its not much but it IS an advantage if you have the healing power to back you up. Overall SKs are the best all-around tank with their debuff cubic, debuff spells, and high strength. The king of Raid tanking goes to paladins due to passive abilities and the king of defensive tanking is TK and the king of PvP tanking can be argued SK or DA but overall SK get the upper hand especially considering PvE as well. SKs get both excellence in PvE ad PvP but you can't say they are THE BEST in anything really, don't underestimate debuffs. Some SKs I know actually ignore hate altogether and just Hex mobs and hate when a healer or other unsuspecting players catch unwanted aggro.

[Warriorr]

a slight note conserning about dyes is that +5 is max that you can get with dyes. So you cant make -5 Str -4 Dex +9 Con.
(Only way to break that +5 limit is to use Armor Set bonus that adds +stat)

And about TK. You don't need much HP with TK as you have Heals and Heal Cube and in party you usually have healer.
Tho i believe that high HP helps in Raid Tanking.

TK is awesome PvE class. Im near 60 and i can solo nonstop white mobs with self buffs. In PvP wise... Its not _The_ class for it. Tho with right setup you might win some PvPs at higher levels as you start to have nice pdef + some health. (But if you are PvP Lover, don't make TK)

My test notes from PTS: 75 TK had with low a-grade armor had 1000 pdef with self buffs and without Guard Stance. With GS it had about ~1270 pdef or smthing (with Final Fortress it nears 1400 pdef.) and HP wise it had about 4000 HP and 2700 CP or smthing without dyes. A-grade Gladiator with Top-A eq made me about 70(*2) dmg with a shot and Triple Sonic Slash gave about 400-500 dmg. Gladiator barely got my CP off when he died... (I believe he had bad mdef as my cube shooted quite hard on him)

Then i fighted against A-Grade Silver Ranger and i had 1700 HP left after that fight. Shield Block is nice addon when fighting against an Archer.

I have replay from these fights if interested :)

(In PTS fights i had Tallum Set + Top Lux Sword :confused: )