Daggers++

[Xanthus_]

Ok, after playing 2 days of live C4...I love my dagger again.

VS has been boosted in effectiveness by QUITE a bit, the land rate SEEMS to be boosted a bit, and Focus might be adding to land rate again...but I haven't done enough testing on that to comment really...

Crit Power seems to have gotten a SMALL boost.

Evasion works much better.

And dagger special damage rocks again! Not like C2 uber ******ed borken rocks, but more like just ROCKS!

Also, now with full buffs, I can do enough damage to ONE SHOT EQUAL LEVEL MAGES!!! You heard me! Hell, I could one-shot myself with full buffs!

My dagger loves me, I love C4, C4 loves my dagger. It's a lovely little circle. :cool: :) :) :) :D ;) :p

[Grammer]

If all this like you say, then I love NCsoft again :)

[Monstrosity]

really?!
dagnabbit then!
I'm gonna blow the dust of the old plainswalker! :)

[Xanthus_]

Ok, the weirdest thing happened last night in the Valley of Saints. I AVOIDED A STUN ATTACK. You heard me. I avoided a special. One of the mobs their morphs into a golden version of the DA's kitty, and has a slow stun attack that normally hits for a lot of damage. One of the times I was fighting one, it charged up it's stun, swung, and what did I see in my system window?

[ QUOTE ]
You avoided [stupid mob]'s attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was like :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:!!!!!!

I CAN AVOID SPECIALS NOW????

Why was this not in the patch notes!?!??

Was this a glitch? A bug with that monster's attack??

what was it?? :confused: :eek: :o

[SsxSin]

WOW...thats awsome...
i hope its now a bug...
/crossfingers

[Xanthus_]

Thinking about it, I think the simplest way to check this would be to:

1. Find a lowbie, go to the arena and have him fire off physical skills at you for a while, see if any miss.

2. Grab a buncha skill spamming lowbie mobs, see if any miss their specials.

[SsxSin]

done...i'll do it tonight
if you can avoid specials...
then you should be able to avoid magic too...
now thats a good idea-+9 dexftw

[Orka]

dont see why you would be able to avoid a sword swinging in your face, and a arrow shot from a mile away, and not being able to avoid a fireball you see comming from the second the mage starts waving his hands

[escd]

I was buffed by a 67lvl PP and have 5 or 6 mana bars gone trying my specials. All i can say they miss the same. _seems_ Some VS damage improvement but nothing more ;)
Here is nothing to discuss if we do not have _ FULL oficial changelist_. To my point of view nothing was changed.

[SsxSin]

[ QUOTE ]
I was buffed by a 67lvl PP and have 5 or 6 mana bars gone trying my specials. All i can say they miss the same. _seems_ Some VS damage improvement but nothing more ;)
Here is nothing to discuss if we do not have _ FULL oficial changelist_. To my point of view nothing was changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

what specials? and what class werer you using them on?
cause there is different evasion rates :)

[escd]

DB/MD/BS on that lvl67PP =)

[SsxSin]

done to what class??...did you try it on an elf? with high dex?

[Xanthus_]

OFFICIALLY NCSoft says that dagger land rate is not affected by evasion...and this, at least, I beleive.

However, I can tell you right now we don't have the "FULL PATCH NOTES" because I'm suddenly doing MUCH more damage than a few days ago in C3, and I haven't change my weapon, my tattoos, my buffs, etc. I haven't changed anything, but C4 is release and my damage goes WAAAAAY up...um yeah, I don't see anything about that in the patch notes....so I'm gonna assume we don't have complete patch notes.

What else have you guys notied that's not in the patch notes?? :)

[Glav]

[ QUOTE ]
OFFICIALLY NCSoft says that dagger land rate is not affected by evasion...and this, at least, I beleive.

However, I can tell you right now we don't have the "FULL PATCH NOTES" because I'm suddenly doing MUCH more damage than a few days ago in C3, and I haven't change my weapon, my tattoos, my buffs, etc. I haven't changed anything, but C4 is release and my damage goes WAAAAAY up...um yeah, I don't see anything about that in the patch notes....so I'm gonna assume we don't have complete patch notes.

What else have you guys notied that's not in the patch notes?? :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that Zerk has been changed more than they indicated. I think it's now a fixed reduction in mdef and pdef, or at least, the reduction has been reduced. With earth/majesty/shield and zerk, I now have about 100 more pdef than I used to.

[Uuurha]

If this is true, this is such bitter irony. My husband was on the verge of quitting because of his dagger sucking, but we decided to wait and see if C4 helped.

And it did. YAY!

But now we're quitting anyways because my orc raider now stands like a pole dancer. Argh.

I bet if they ever fix the stances they'll take away the improvements to daggers. *shake fist*

That said, assuming that the changes are for real, I'm so happy for daggers!

[Ulfnar]

Thats acctually kinda funny, back when i beta tested this game i really wanted to play an abyss walker. When i eventually got around to getting this game i noted that everyone said daggers sucked so I rolled the other things i wanted to play. Now with c4 my orcs look homosexual and daggers are aparently decent again? talk about bad luck on my part.

[Zeus747]

Ill agree with you on the Vicious stance part. Id say now VS adds about 200 to 300 damage more per special. On the evasion part yes evasion was greatly increased. Another thing I noticed was in c3 before the update I was hunting mobs that were level 70+ red to me and im 60+ dagger I turned on VS and had prophet buffs and Bd buffs and did 1200 damage. So then c4 came and full prophet buffs and bd buffs Im pulling 2000+ damage on a red mob. which in c3 i only did 1200 damage with DB and prophet buffs/bd buffs. So then im like 2000 + damage is nice. So a high level warlock in our group had that cat buff a level 2 crit chance buff (crit rate and damage increases level 2 buff). so with that buff and additional 500 damage was added to my DB with VS. So total i was pulling 2500 damage with DB .

So ive thus come to the conclusion thus far is that unbuffed a daggers damage wiill be very good now because of the VS increase. But now a fully buffed dagger with buffs increasing special damage can really hinder a target. Had a 75 TH test out VS on a level 74 robe and the TH with VS and no buffs at all did 2k damage. Now add the prophet buffs , bd buffs , and warlocks cat buff and I wouldnt be surprised if a TH of that level is putting 3k damage on a robe user.

[Ventx]

[ QUOTE ]
Ill agree with you on the Vicious stance part. Id say now VS adds about 200 to 300 damage more per special. On the evasion part yes evasion was greatly increased. Another thing I noticed was in c3 before the update I was hunting mobs that were level 70+ red to me and im 60+ dagger I turned on VS and had prophet buffs and Bd buffs and did 1200 damage. So then c4 came and full prophet buffs and bd buffs Im pulling 2000+ damage on a red mob. which in c3 i only did 1200 damage with DB and prophet buffs/bd buffs. So then im like 2000 + damage is nice. So a high level warlock in our group had that cat buff a level 2 crit chance buff (crit rate and damage increases level 2 buff). so with that buff and additional 500 damage was added to my DB with VS. So total i was pulling 2500 damage with DB .

So ive thus come to the conclusion thus far is that unbuffed a daggers damage wiill be very good now because of the VS increase. But now a fully buffed dagger with buffs increasing special damage can really hinder a target. Had a 75 TH test out VS on a level 74 robe and the TH with VS and no buffs at all did 2k damage. Now add the prophet buffs , bd buffs , and warlocks cat buff and I wouldnt be surprised if a TH of that level is putting 3k damage on a robe user.

[/ QUOTE ]

all nice and all, but a mage still drops us.

[Zeus747]

Well 1v1 of course because they have spells like sleep/slow. Not to mention the fast cast speed . In open pvp daggers are never targeted first because they are not seen as a threat but get rigth behind a nuker in a 9v9 when they are busy spamming nukes on a tank and an equal level dagger will drop an equal level nuker in 2 shots. That 75 TH I told you about was fighting that just about same level nuker and did DB with only VS with no buffs whatsoever and did 2k damage. Now add BD buffs, add focus, crit damage SA etc. you can do one DB with VS and get a damage of 3k on one special. so 2 specials of 3k damage the nuker is pretty much going down. Granted if your arena 1v1 or open field 1v1 your not gonna win because the nuker will drop you before you even reach them to do a special. All ncosft has to do is remove sleep/slow in pvp and the nuker is as good as screwed. Plus the only thing that helps nukers now is the acumen SA , bsps increasing cast speed, bonus from armor increasing cast speed and tatoo.

[WaRpZnEwt]

zerk has increased P atk and reduced the -p def since m def is now reduces as well.

[TemplarZ]

I agree with a slight increase in land rate and also an increase in damage.

Evasion? if anything, it was "nerfed". But who really cares about daggers getting a boost??? Nukers still own you anyways lol...

[Taraza]

Actually NC Soft NEVER has released full and accurate patch notes. One example in C4 is how they changed the effect of Fear. It used to make mobs run away but then come back. But now the mobs run away and disappear completely. And about evasion, I think it has been boosted just slightly. Messing around in the arena I noticed many mid lvl 60 people actually consistantly missing me, and Im a lvl 75 SwS. But i never really paid too much attention to that before so it could be that I'm just paying more attention

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]

Evasion? if anything, it was "nerfed". But who really cares about daggers getting a boost??? Nukers still own you anyways lol...

[/ QUOTE ]
Nukers are overrated, try using correct songs and buffs :eek:. I'm not saying they aren't uber but none can kill me in one shot, not even a magic crit could one shot me.

[Ventx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Evasion? if anything, it was "nerfed". But who really cares about daggers getting a boost??? Nukers still own you anyways lol...

[/ QUOTE ]
Nukers are overrated, try using correct songs and buffs :eek:. I'm not saying they aren't uber but none can kill me in one shot, not even a magic crit could one shot me.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Nukers are not overrated. Think about how sieges work. It's a battle of range picking off each other. If oneside lacks in range they are pretty much defeated as no one wants to get close enough for 50 people to hit them. If a dagger gets close? By the time that happens that nuker has probably already dropped another opponent and probably working on another one. One thing I can see about my level 75 PW is that alot of the times I am rendered useless in PvP usually because I get dropped before I do any damage. Taraza's example shows a dumb nuker and a smart dagger incident. Sure theres the chance, how can someone geared to do damage not have a chance to take someone down? All DD are a threat. How about the Necromancer? You can't take that down in 3 hits. Maybe 5-6. And don't get into that "usually they don't have their summon out". Come on guys, all u need is another nuker to summon their lvl 35 summon, let the necro kill it and summon a corrupted man. Then they have a summon out until it dies or until 40~ minutes go by. Unless you gank them out leveling you won't take a Necro down that easily. And by the time u can manage 5-6 specials with a dagger the Necro will turn around and kill you or gloom/anchor if they are in a last resort. I already consider my lvl 56 Necromancer subclass stronger than my lvl 75 main. I've enjoyed PvP more and I've been far more successful at it.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Evasion? if anything, it was "nerfed". But who really cares about daggers getting a boost??? Nukers still own you anyways lol...

[/ QUOTE ]
Nukers are overrated, try using correct songs and buffs :eek:. I'm not saying they aren't uber but none can kill me in one shot, not even a magic crit could one shot me.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Nukers are not overrated. Think about how sieges work. It's a battle of range picking off each other. If oneside lacks in range they are pretty much defeated as no one wants to get close enough for 50 people to hit them. If a dagger gets close? By the time that happens that nuker has probably already dropped another opponent and probably working on another one. One thing I can see about my level 75 PW is that alot of the times I am rendered useless in PvP usually because I get dropped before I do any damage. Taraza's example shows a dumb nuker and a smart dagger incident. Sure theres the chance, how can someone geared to do damage not have a chance to take someone down? All DD are a threat. How about the Necromancer? You can't take that down in 3 hits. Maybe 5-6. And don't get into that "usually they don't have their summon out". Come on guys, all u need is another nuker to summon their lvl 35 summon, let the necro kill it and summon a corrupted man. Then they have a summon out until it dies or until 40~ minutes go by. Unless you gank them out leveling you won't take a Necro down that easily. And by the time u can manage 5-6 specials with a dagger the Necro will turn around and kill you or gloom/anchor if they are in a last resort. I already consider my lvl 56 Necromancer subclass stronger than my lvl 75 main. I've enjoyed PvP more and I've been far more successful at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mention an example with dagger and nuker :p, wrong guy. But I do think nukers are overrated a lot, they are powerful but have their shortcomings. Properly buffed and using Health SA I have over 11k HP+CP and a lvl 75 SH with SE and BD buffs and Weakness to wind casted (and landed) will do roughly 700 damage a nuke, and I'm in BO jewelery still. Throw in CP pots and healing pots and only a moron wouldn't be able to reach a nuker. I'm also sick of people saying, "well you are a SwS", what they fail to comprehend is that MOST of my mdef comes from songs and buffs which EVERYONE can get and there are some classes, like tanks, that get Magic Resist masteries, otherwise with Orcs and humans this difference is almost made up by their superior HP/CP. Sleep is negated by SMART groups who take advantage of tools NC Soft gives us (Waking Scrolls, NM armor set, lvl 76+ resist passive). The other thing about high HP classes, like melee, is that healers actually have a chance to heal them. Whereas archers and nukers can be reduced to a few swing/shot kill. I think the main problem is players don't prepare melee well for PvP. Melee simply are not designed to be the killers but a VERY formidable nuisance and if ignored can be a killer. The problems I see with melee are people going -CON, not using HP weapons for seiges, and simply not buffing correctly. People NEED to take advantage of SwS songs and BD's Dance of Aqua Guard, these things are powerful. Also people NEED to start using Resist XXXX buffs. And EVERY time I'm in the arena messing around in group vs. group PvP, or just arena ganking :), I have to actually REMIND people to shortcut Waking scrolls and half of the time I have to PROVIDE the waking scrolls :eek:. This is not a game design flaw, its a player flaw. Also Bishops at lvl 76 get a Resist Dark too and Prophets get a buff that Resist Fire, Wind, Earth, and Aqua all in one buff (anyone know if this stacks on existing Resist XXXX buffs? I'm curious and didn't play PTS). Thing about it. A Tyrant with +5 CON can have up to 19K HP and whatever their CP is, like 3.5K or something. They are lightning fast and with correct buffs are THE nuker killer and as long as there is a teamate using Waking Scrolls they are practically an unstoppable juggarnaut. Now archers and nukers are designed to be the best killers but they are also frail and as far as summons go sometimes its better to drop the summon before the summoner.

[Zeus747]

Well even so archers and mages are way overpowered. I mean to be honest I liked the balance of the nukers before acumen SA was implmented and the bonus to avadon robes. Before those were implemented casters were fine. The reason they are so overpowered now is because nukers have 4 things which increase cast speed. Acumen SA, BSps,robe cast speed bonus , and tatoos. Those 4 together combine for some super sonic cast speed. Id say keep the tatoos because tatoos are for everyone the bsps im iffy on but if that is the only thing to raise cast speed then so be it.

You might say whats wrong with this. Well nukers hit hard. A level 73 nuker was hitting me level 62 TH for 1500 per nuke. that same level nuker was hitting a level 75 TH for 1400 per nuke. What im not understannding is how the nuker is hitting just about the same damage to someone that is 2 levels higher than them while im like 11 levels lower than they are.

Imagine if in c5 they say melee armor now gives 15 percent haste on weapon, 15 percent haste on armor and SS now increase atk speed. What do you think would happen? It would even the playing field im all for doing this. A nuker can dish out 1600 damage per spell at the least , the best a melee could do is maybe 200 on a reg crit and 1000 using a special which most classes have to charge up for and or wait for reuse. Ncsoft needs to take some serious balancing issues for c5 and do some internal testing to revamp the whole system. I mean they dont want a whole game where all the people that play are rolling into one class. Which is why understand why they nerfed the dagger (but not to the extent they did but thats another story) but they had to or everyone would have just rolled a dagger. Were seeing it again everyone is rerolling a mage only. A game with only just mages doesnt do anything. I frankly would like to see a variety of classes playing. for those who didnt follow the reroll train i commend you for sticking with your melee char even though its a rough time. I just know that next chronicle something about nukers is gonna get nerfed. Remember Might mortal didnt last very long and neither will acumen.

[Taraza]

yea but there are defenses against mages, rather effective ones I might add. For example, just by buffing Song of Warding, Storm Guard, and Resist Wind you more than HALF a wind nuke's damage. And then melee have potential to get insane HP, especially Orcs and Humans. Quite honestly it doesn't take much to bring a nuker or archer down. Two or three TSS will bring many down. I understand people say its unbalanced that you may need 2-3 melee to drop a nuker but the fact is because melee will survive better its to their advantage to work on ONE target at a time because they can take the abuse from others attacking them fairly well. People just underestimate the MAGIC RESIST buffs such as Resist Wind, Resist Aqua, Resist Fire, Song of Warding, Song of Flame Guard, Song of Storm Guard, Song of Invocation, and Dance of Aqua Guard. And with 3rd class buffs we can get Divine Protection (Resist Dark magic), Arcane Protection (Resist Debuffs and buff removal spells), Chant of Spirit (same as Arcane Protection), Elemental Protection (Resist Wind, Aqua, Fire, and Earth all in one buff), and 3rd class TKs and Paladins get Touch of Life which also raises resist against debuffs and buff removal speels as well as other effects like faster HP Recovery, heal,etc. And then you got 3rd class melee with skills that can possibly reflect debuffs. The advances in offense are great and all but people are ignoring the new defensive buffs, just like people HAVE been and STILL are ignoring existing defensive buffs.

[Ventx]

Zeus I strongly disagree with increasing DPS of many classes at this point. I'd feel much better if everyone had a little more survivability so they could survive PvP longer.



Now Taraza I know exactly where your coming from, but you might be able to see where I'm coming from here. "Ultimate Defense Buffs" knock out the room for necessary offensive buffs. Especially with the increased amount of buffs in chronicle 4. At least with non-nukers. Nukers as of now require the least buffs of all so even a buff that hardly helps, it will help.

I want to deal with endgame first.

-Level 78 Necromancer
with Cursed Man/Corrupted Man

The Summon and TP
The summon isn't hard to get out, get a fellow nuker to summon their lvl 35 summon and kill it and summon from corpse. Wala u got a summon and it will follow you for about 40 minutes before it disappears or dies in combat. Transfer Pain as everyone knows reduces damage to the Necromancer as long as the summon has HP left, it will end the effect when it hits 1 hp, it will not die from it. Transfer Pain isn't a large sinkhole of MP but only the best Necromancer can know when exactly to have it on. Usually best to have it on when theres a chance to take damage. The summons can get party buffs now as well so you can have a corrupted man with full nuker buffs and it won't suck with bsps. Or you can have a Cursed Man, at level 76 with prophet buffs roughly 2600 P.Atk and decent HP and defense stats to boot. Not to mention a damaging stun and a deadly blow to boot! The stun rocks because it's land rate just owns and it's enough of a threat to try and take it out first. Your in bad shape if this thing stuns you. The summon alone adds an additional 5-8k HP (8k or so with BtB).

Buffs
A level 78 Necromancer (Soul Taker) is going to want the best buffs/songs/dances. This means accumen, zerk, emp, WM, shield, MA, magicbarrier, btb, bts, resist shock, ww, bless shield, conc/mystic dances, earth/warding. Not to mention the 76+ buffs like Chant of Victory, Prophecy of Water and if possible add Dance of Siren or Song of Meditation/Renewal. Most of these buffs can be found in a now common Clan Hall. With exception of Emp3 (which is easy to get and comes lvl 1 in CH and Wild Magic, also Accumen but u can buy the potions). So to give a Necromancer an awesome buff list all you need is a decent level SE and a clan hall or a high lvl Prophet/EE in your alliance. Before a PvP a lvl 78 is going to be efficient, they will goto Hot Springs and get Malaria lvl 4. Can you say approaching 6k M.Atk (depending on OE weapon) and 1600+ cast speed?

Sieges
Usually high level nukers will be in the primary nuker party with full buffs. Probably not a Swordsinger though. Survivability of a Necromancer? Around 600 p.def with zerk and roughly 900-1k m.def. A lvl 78 Necromancer with BtB will have 5.5-6k HP. Add on the summon to half the value and you got yourself a 11-12k HP Nuker. Sure the defenses are a little lower than other classes. Their primary nuke is the best endurance running spell, Death Spike. Add in Dark Vortex and Arcane Power and your going to take heavy damage. Like you said in another post, you didn't test Chronicle 4. Lets be reasonable here, a lvl 78 Necromancer is going to be mowing down opponents. He won't use Dark Vortex on lowbies and will probably keep Arcane Power on. If he gets hit, he won't go down right away, probably have time to get back into his ranks and heal up. If MP gets low, he can either get recharged or body to mind up. While doing so he can keep attacking the enemy with his summon.

Resists against Dark Magic
I'm not 100% on this but theres no dance/song that resists dark magic. Yeah lvl 76 Bishops get a resist dark buff. OK. Now count the amount of Bishops on your fingers. Now count the amount of reroll/subclass Necromancers. Not to mention it's easy to pick out who is high level or not, on these high levels there will be a Dark Vortex (negates the resist) and a Gloom.

Tyrant
You had to point this problem out, they are a decent melee class after all. But in sieges nukers are in packs and will usually autoassist, won't be long till this guy is down. Especially since a Necromancer can stun/anchor and has almost the survivability as a summoner. Anchor lands well vs Tyrants and maybe a Tyrant can take a nuker out but it has to run to each nuker while each nuker simply assists and targets.

Taking out Summon First
Hard to make this work, simply if my summon was targetted I would run it away. It takes longer to kill something you must chase. And while this is happening, guess what? Your HP is going down fast.

Nightmare Armor
Yeah I gotta say it's an excellent set, but nukers have come so far now, they don't need sleep to win. In C1-C2 mages relied on sleep, MA killed them. But now a nuker can kill in other methods.


I must say, in conclusion I believe three factors make range overpowered.
#1 Melee Attack Bug - Target too far. This happens when target moves away, most common with archers. This is also why summoners were gimp in PvP.
#2 Assist - Range assist = everyone instantly fires at target. Melee assist = everyone runs towards target, not instant and are vulnerable to AoE and other ranged targets.
#3 Cast Speed/Archer P.Atk = First game i've played where bows have highest p.atk. First game i've played where there is absolutely no preparation for spells.

[Taraza]

no vent I do understand your argument and it is valid. Nukers and archers ARE killers, thats what they do best. But what I'm saying is that melee are not that bad AT ALL, its just that their priorities don't necessarily lie only in damage dealing. What would satify people exactly? give melee the same offensive power as nukers/archers while letting them keep their insane defensive and HP qualities so that range is the ONLY thing nukers/archers have on them? the balance is more delicate than people seem to realize. If they nerfed mages just a little too much they would become obsolete, I know thats hard to swallow but truly they would be gimpish if they were nerfed and then people took advantage of the MANY defenses against them.

Actually there is a Dark magic resist, its Song of Invocation. It was changed in C3, but don't refer to patch notes because its simply not there. MANY things are not mentioned in patch notes. I noticed one so far after playing C4 for only a few hours. They changed the effect of Fear :(. And about mage groups assisting off eachother, I never see it. Right now most only target for themselves because many people get 2-3 shotted because they are either an archer, nuker, or an inproperly buffed melee class. I know people want to look at the high end skills nukers have but look at some the dwarves, Destroyers, and Warlords get. They get an AoE skill with the power rating of 4040 and makes all enemies lose their target. That means if you take a whole group of polearm users up to a large concentration of nukers/healers/archers/daggers they could ALL possibly be dropped in a matter of a few seconds while all losing their targets as well. Now the same cannot be said about mage AoE nukes, the magic defense that can be provided by SwS, BDs, and Prophets can turn those AoE nukes into nothing. To put some perspective on that you know the Bloody Banshees that have the AoE splash attack in the deep lair. With just warding (NO Dance of Aqua Guard) those things nuke me for like 90 HP and many are resisted and I'm in BO jewelery. I just think people over exaggerate nukers WAY too much and give absolutely no credit to melee, who when buffed and set up correctly, can tear shiit up. About buffs and overbuffing, its simple, LOSE SOME. There are things many classes just don't need. Accuracy for example, in my opinion there are only 11 essential melee buffs and then 5 song/dance. You just have to compromise on buffs. Offense doesn't mean shiit when you don't have the means to even reach a target. You can kill quite efficiently with special attacks, especially now that Fatal Strike has been boosted and Frenzy. Frenzy lasts 1 min and 30 sec now, melee classes are a rush in and kill or rush in and die class. Set up Destroyers to Frenzy and then have them rush. Four Destroyers in Frenzy with defensive buffs can rip down CROWDS of enemies that its not even funny. Have them work with a high lvl OL that can AoE root people and Destroyers are now the most feared adversary on the field. Our alliance happens to have a few high lvl OL and quite a few dwarves over 70, 2 of which are already 75 and in their subclass. We also have a few Destoyers with another one coming when I decide to finish my **** 75 quest :).

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
Zeus I strongly disagree with increasing DPS of many classes at this point. I'd feel much better if everyone had a little more survivability so they could survive PvP longer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Especially when you look at the 3rd class skills melee classes get. If DPS meant everything then I would not be able to beat many people in 1v1. I have 30 STR!!!!! and I still lay waste to people in the arenas and get some fill at seiges because most of my kills are ganked by archers :(, archer squad SwS FTL. Put me in the front lines with heavy melee any day over the tactics ******* like archers use, hit and run are for wusses :p

[TemplarZ]

I like your arguement with SWS, too bad SWS' dont exist =]

Anyone that can do a consistant 1K+ damage to ANYONE, while me as say a dagger, can only attack special targets, and have a 50% chance of failure. Thats why nukers are overpowered.

[Ventx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Zeus I strongly disagree with increasing DPS of many classes at this point. I'd feel much better if everyone had a little more survivability so they could survive PvP longer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Especially when you look at the 3rd class skills melee classes get. If DPS meant everything then I would not be able to beat many people in 1v1. I have 30 STR!!!!! and I still lay waste to people in the arenas and get some fill at seiges because most of my kills are ganked by archers :(, archer squad SwS FTL. Put me in the front lines with heavy melee any day over the tactics ******* like archers use, hit and run are for wusses :p

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Taraza I love getting up and frontal with everyone as well, but it's simply not the best strategy for a Swordsinger. Also you give examples of a Destroyer having a chance vs a nuker but really this is also the Dagger thread. Your telling us nukers are overrated in a thread like this. A balance for rogue classes would be if nukes could miss. But with our low cp/hp we rely on our evasion and literally were easier for a nuker to take us down than a nuker taking down another nuker. Low M.Def/low cp/low hp. You get it? Can we get a health sa weapon? No. Nothing suitable for us gives us +HP or any real setup to defeat nukers. Sure IF we get in melee range and IF our specials land we might have a CHANCE to do satisfying damage to kill one. We have the same survivability as an archer and an archer does the same damage as our specials with full buffs on crits. So we are the same thing as an archer except we require ourselves to be in melee range to fire. Even with defensive buffs and songs a dagger won't kill a fully buffed nuker. Sure a destroyer will drain alot of MP out of one, and in sieges allies are going to hit a dangerously close destroyer waltzing into the front lines.

I wish I could show you a picture on how the battles work in sieges. Destroyers can't move to a target very fast. They may kill one but the time to get from enemy to enemy may take too long. Defensive buffs do work and I'd be fine if a dagger could:

Skill Silent Move - toggle - players can't target you. Any form of attacking will turn skill off, and any AoE damage towards you will turn skill off.

Activating this skill for PvP. This will allow a Sorcerer to have a better chance vs the dagger class with it's Blazing Circle and other AoE skills. Of course decrease the movement speed slightly from what it is now and wala you make an assassin class. No need to go invisible, although that would be a better way of doing it. If a GM can go invisible why not an assassin ^^

[Winter]

Amen! Invisible AW... you have my vote.

[Taraza]

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I like your arguement with SWS, too bad SWS' dont exist =]

Anyone that can do a consistant 1K+ damage to ANYONE, while me as say a dagger, can only attack special targets, and have a 50% chance of failure. Thats why nukers are overpowered.

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I was waiting for someone to say that Vent :p. I just started my argument off of a post, not the thread. Personally I think daggers got screwed once again :(. Making evasion also evade nukes would be the answer, its that simple, the only thing to do that is actually fair as well. Even if they made it a passive skill JUST for daggers to have evasion also give them the ability to evade nukes its only fair.

But on the subject of what I quoted the shortages in SwS is exactly the problem with mages pwing everyone. They help TREMENDOUSLY vs. nukers that its not even funny. Here people have a chance to HALF the damage of most of the nukes thrown at them and they call me a moron for mentioning it :p, GG, who exactly is the moron here? SwS also make it possible for classes to reach up to 19k HP, ohh but then again, useless right? SwS also give Tyrants a chance to have **** near the same crit as archers, oh but that doesn't matter. Nor does +20 run speed, doesn't help at all does it? Jesus Christ, many of the PvP problems people have against nukers can be resolved by PROPER buffs/songs and USING Waking Scrolls. They are offensively strong but not Gods, they can be brought down fairly easily.

[Ventx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like your arguement with SWS, too bad SWS' dont exist =]

Anyone that can do a consistant 1K+ damage to ANYONE, while me as say a dagger, can only attack special targets, and have a 50% chance of failure. Thats why nukers are overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was waiting for someone to say that Vent :p. I just started my argument off of a post, not the thread. Personally I think daggers got screwed once again :(. Making evasion also evade nukes would be the answer, its that simple, the only thing to do that is actually fair as well. Even if they made it a passive skill JUST for daggers to have evasion also give them the ability to evade nukes its only fair.

But on the subject of what I quoted the shortages in SwS is exactly the problem with mages pwing everyone. They help TREMENDOUSLY vs. nukers that its not even funny. Here people have a chance to HALF the damage of most of the nukes thrown at them and they call me a moron for mentioning it :p, GG, who exactly is the moron here? SwS also make it possible for classes to reach up to 19k HP, ohh but then again, useless right? SwS also give Tyrants a chance to have **** near the same crit as archers, oh but that doesn't matter. Nor does +20 run speed, doesn't help at all does it? Jesus Christ, many of the PvP problems people have against nukers can be resolved by PROPER buffs/songs and USING Waking Scrolls. They are offensively strong but not Gods, they can be brought down fairly easily.

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i don't think the problem is lack of Swordsingers, but lack of Swordsingers eager to PvP. I'm not saying Swordsingers are good, but Mages are STILL overpowered and daggers are STILL underpowered. There was no change in the strategies in C4 except people will die faster.