Why are things as they are regarding meleeVSrange? [Archive]

Wirashue

02-23-2006, 06:35 AM

I contacted support to get some answers to these questions, but they only directed me to this part of the forum.
All replies are welcome, but please refrain from flamming as it will get this thread locked down.
All I want with this post is for GM's to give their side of the story and perhaps shed some light on why the game has developed into what it is.

As it is now there is a serios imbalance in PvP where melee's of all kinds bites the dust more frequently then seems fair. And this is not something that has happened to just me, melee's on all servers are experiencing the same thing.
As it is at the moment, because of blessed spiritshots, the magic users land their debuffs far more often then seems fair.
With all the nuker friendly gear increasing cast.spd and m.atk and all the other stats and then adding b-sps to that, the nukers just can't miss their debuffs which effectivly renders melee fighters helpless.
As I see it it seems unfair that the nukers shall have close to 100% succes-rate on their debuffs when melee have no chance of protecting themselves against it. Not even with full buffs and ultimate defense is a tank safe from debuffs and he has a m.def of 3500+, that just seems wrong.
And incase you have missed it there are, atleast on barts, a constantly decreasing amount of melee's left in the game. Most of the melee's left in the game are those that have already reached 75 and have sub-classed a nuker.

One imbalance is caused by blessed spiritshots. I mean seriosly, 4 times the dmg, increased spell release time AND higher chance of landing debuffs?? This is what makes nukers so extremly dangerous that there practicly isn't any class that can kill them, exept archers.

As for armor sets, how come robes get more then twice the amont of % then light armor?
For instance light armor givs +4% increase att.spd, while robes give +15% cast.spd.
Special abillities on weapons display the same thing, SA haste gives +7% att.spd while SA acumen gives +15% cast.spd.
Why is that exactly??

Is the game designed for nukers to rule supreme?
Is it supposed be nukers only on the servers?
Why is the new areas so easy to solo in if you are a nuker but not for a melee? Exept Swamp of screams ofcourse, only an archer can solo in there.
Why can nukers go from killable to untouchable with only adding 1 consumable, while there isn't any eqivalent for melee fighters??
Are there any changes planned for the PvP-balance??

Those are some of the questions I would like answered.

Again i beg you to refrain from flamming in this thread.
Discussions is welcome but flamming isn't.

Sovrath

02-23-2006, 07:59 AM

There are actually several threads that are already discussing this. I'm sure they would all welcome your input. ;)

Wirashue

02-23-2006, 08:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There are actually several threads that are already discussing this. I'm sure they would all welcome your input. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I only found one so far and that one hasn't recived any notice from GM's. So I figured I would make another try.

Torg

02-23-2006, 09:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are actually several threads that are already discussing this. I'm sure they would all welcome your input. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I only found one so far and that one hasn't recived any notice from GM's. So I figured I would make another try.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before anyone else jumps in and slams you for this.

The GM's won't be able to help. You're looking for a response from the Developers (the guys who actually made the game) and they're in Korea and don't care what we do in America. So demanding a GM response won't do anything because the GM's weren't involved in the development and the reasoning that went in in the design phase.

I suggest making a mage character, getting comfortable with being cannon fodder or cancelling your account. These are the 3 options available at this time.

esuny

02-23-2006, 09:04 AM

You described very well the actual unbalance , my treasure hunter has 30% chance with deadly blow and some skills are not usable in pvp ... and i would add one more that in game mobs drop spell books and no equivalents for non magicians .

Woodsman

02-23-2006, 09:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You described very well the actual unbalance , my treasure hunter has 30% chance with deadly blow and some skills are not usable in pvp ... and i would add one more that in game mobs drop spell books and no equivalents for non magicians .

[/ QUOTE ]

Well most people are gratefull they dont have to mess with clumsy books to learn their skills. Besides, if I find a book, I know there is a desperate mage somewhere looking for this one......

But back to the OP.
Yes there is a big imbalance but no, I dont see that being solved soon. As it doesnt seem to bother the Korean gamers very much that this imbalance exist. And as they are the majority of the gamers, our opinion doesnt cary that much weight to the powerd that be.

Wirashue

02-23-2006, 09:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are actually several threads that are already discussing this. I'm sure they would all welcome your input. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I only found one so far and that one hasn't recived any notice from GM's. So I figured I would make another try.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before anyone else jumps in and slams you for this.

The GM's won't be able to help. You're looking for a response from the Developers (the guys who actually made the game) and they're in Korea and don't care what we do in America. So demanding a GM response won't do anything because the GM's weren't involved in the development and the reasoning that went in in the design phase.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you said, no GM ever would care/be able to change anything, but the Dev's are supposed to be reading this part of the forum, or atleast have the GM's report what is said here.

[ QUOTE ]

I suggest making a mage character, getting comfortable with being cannon fodder or cancelling your account. These are the 3 options available at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then cancellation it is. I love my tyrant, but as it is, it's no fun in playing a minority class, and at the same time suck big time in anykind of PvP, unless I equip him in OE jewelry, NM light, add +5 con and get a OE dragon grinder with SA health. Then Maybe, and only maybe, I can kill a nuker.

Taraza

02-23-2006, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Then cancellation it is. I love my tyrant, but as it is, it's no fun in playing a minority class, and at the same time suck big time in anykind of PvP, unless I equip him in OE jewelry, NM light, add +5 con and get a OE dragon grinder with SA health. Then Maybe, and only maybe, I can kill a nuker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that is exactly what you do with Tyrants for PvP, although OE jewelery isn't really needed, just A grade or S and unsealed. Just put SwS in there with magic resistances and new 3rd class prophet buff. You can have up to like 19K HP and with SwS magic resistance most mages will hit you for like 800. I'm still using BO jewelery and I got 1100 mdef and a lvl 70+ Sorc fire nuke hits me for like 400-500 with Warding, Flame Guard, and Resist Fire. Nukers are much faster killers than melee, people just have to accept that fact but also realize nukers die easily and there are ways to survive long enough to drop them.

Wirashue

02-23-2006, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Then cancellation it is. I love my tyrant, but as it is, it's no fun in playing a minority class, and at the same time suck big time in anykind of PvP, unless I equip him in OE jewelry, NM light, add +5 con and get a OE dragon grinder with SA health. Then Maybe, and only maybe, I can kill a nuker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that is exactly what you do with Tyrants for PvP, although OE jewelery isn't really needed, just A grade or S and unsealed. Just put SwS in there with magic resistances and new 3rd class prophet buff. You can have up to like 19K HP and with SwS magic resistance most mages will hit you for like 800. I'm still using BO jewelery and I got 1100 mdef and a lvl 70+ Sorc fire nuke hits me for like 400-500 with Warding, Flame Guard, and Resist Fire. Nukers are much faster killers than melee, people just have to accept that fact but also realize nukers die easily and there are ways to survive long enough to drop them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I belive we have alredy picked that argument apart in another thread since few of us melee HAVE a SwS, prophet, EE and what else that is needed with us all the time. And you as a SwS have passive m.def buffs which most of us don't enjoy. So gratz to you for having that kind of m.def, and then I ask you to cut that in half and you have my mdef with full BO-set(necklace +1)

And for tyrants with 19k HP, that's only under certain circumstances. That tyrant (i belive your refering to ormjaevel) is lvl 75, had doom heavy, +5 con, and was full buffed with BtB lvl6, song of vitalize, dragon grinder SA health and ogre totem. Although it is a nasty setup, he will still be droped easiely by a nuker since ogre reduces spd along with the doom heavy, making his run spd around 130 at the MOST, and then add some kind of nuker-slow on him and the nuker can kite him to death while in walk-mode, gonna take alot of MP but he will kill him in the end.

Torg

02-23-2006, 10:36 AM

MuadDib

02-23-2006, 01:25 PM

Taraza

02-24-2006, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Then cancellation it is. I love my tyrant, but as it is, it's no fun in playing a minority class, and at the same time suck big time in anykind of PvP, unless I equip him in OE jewelry, NM light, add +5 con and get a OE dragon grinder with SA health. Then Maybe, and only maybe, I can kill a nuker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that is exactly what you do with Tyrants for PvP, although OE jewelery isn't really needed, just A grade or S and unsealed. Just put SwS in there with magic resistances and new 3rd class prophet buff. You can have up to like 19K HP and with SwS magic resistance most mages will hit you for like 800. I'm still using BO jewelery and I got 1100 mdef and a lvl 70+ Sorc fire nuke hits me for like 400-500 with Warding, Flame Guard, and Resist Fire. Nukers are much faster killers than melee, people just have to accept that fact but also realize nukers die easily and there are ways to survive long enough to drop them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people need to understand that their suggestions of buying 2-3 accounts to run buffers around behind them and playing for a few years to get to A or S grade to still be uncompetitive aren't helpful or practical.

[/ QUOTE ]

When have I ever said buy multiple accounts?! NEVER. Stop misunderstanding me and saying I am saying things that I am not. This is a GROUP game and therefore people need to play as a GROUP for PvP balance. Small scale PvP and 1v1 are NO good indicator at all. Half the classes in this game are SUPPORT classes. Use them. If you cannot find people that play these classes then its a player problem, NOT a design problem in which NC Soft is not going to invest $$ to tailor to the NA/Eu market, at least not by the looks of it. Songs and buffs account for more magic resistance than mdef in general, however mdef in general of course resists all elements but to a much lower effect than things like Elemental Protection and Resist buffs. Blade Dancers, Paladins, Temple Knights, Sword Singers, and Dark Avengers all have pretty much the same mdef as me, ITS THE SONGS THAT MAKE SwS renowned for magic defense not only their passive and EVERYONE can have songs. And know that I'm also comparing myself in BO for a reason because with unsealed A and S grade jewelery the mdef gained is much better than BO.

The ONLY problem with ranged is mage's casting speed, thats it. MANY melee can defeat archers so I don't really consider them a problem. Many classes have slow, not just ranged. And in 76+ skills there's also possibility of debuff reflect as well with many melee classes. So while there are problems they are not half as bad as people say. People have just given up because its easier than changing tactics and buff set ups. Also know melee's role and its NOT to kill with the efficiency as nukers and archers, as least not as easily. I don't know when people forgot this but I know many people that I play with realized this back in C1.

_Charmille_

02-24-2006, 04:23 AM

You mean the role of being a dmg sink, a flag bait and the mad rusher that goes to the flags? Ya, thats what I play, but it's a bit nagging when someone can drop my hulking behemot destroyer in a few seconds.

This is a group game, but there is also 1vs1 or very small numbers fighting each other. And in these small fights, the unbalance shows.

Casting speed, and slow are the only problems that I can think of. The dmg is fine, I dont care about it. But I do care about the fact that I can be hit dozens of times in the same time I could possibly swing my sword 2 times. Slow melee classes need a resist to slow, and cast speed needs tuning. Might solve alot since after all, the classes that dont have slow themselves, but get slowed on the field are the ones mostly suffering from it. Especially when they're already slow by default T_T

Molte

02-24-2006, 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ITS THE SONGS THAT MAKE SwS renowned for magic defense not only their passive and EVERYONE can have songs.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
You are so far off here taraza.
You should reconsider your argument with element resist songs,
it just doesnt work like that in game.

Wirashue

02-24-2006, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]

ITS THE SONGS THAT MAKE SwS renowned for magic defense not only their passive and EVERYONE can have songs.

[/ QUOTE ]

As said before, not all have that SwS with him when it is needed. In my whole ally, not a big one but atleast 70 ppl, we have 1 SwS left. The rest have rerolled into nukers because then they could kill something.

[ QUOTE ]
If you cannot find people that play these classes then its a player problem, NOT a design problem in which NC Soft is not going to invest $$ to tailor to the NA/Eu market, at least not by the looks of it

[/ QUOTE ]

NCsoft will HAVE to invest money in it. Soon there won't be any melee left in the game, only nukers. How fun do you think it is to play on servers with only nukers and buffers??
More ppl are going to quit and move to games with more balanced PvP since it's no fun in killing ppl that can't defend themselves or only fight other nukers all the time.

Zephro_Carnelian

02-24-2006, 12:11 PM

there is a massive flaw in the way every one is thinking a +7 hom is common place for a nuker but how menney have +7 jewles ? if ever 1/2 the resorces peoplke in vest i nto therre weps were invested in to anti mage gear then mages would hitthem for almost nothing right now every class wants to have a glowing red wep but a tank vs a nuker wouth with glowing red weps the nuker awlays wins

Wirashue

02-24-2006, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
there is a massive flaw in the way every one is thinking a +7 hom is common place for a nuker but how menney have +7 jewles ? if ever 1/2 the resorces peoplke in vest i nto therre weps were invested in to anti mage gear then mages would hitthem for almost nothing right now every class wants to have a glowing red wep but a tank vs a nuker wouth with glowing red weps the nuker awlays wins

[/ QUOTE ]

So all melee should have to invest in OE jewels now to be able to compete with nukers. This just keeps getting better and better.
Not only do the melee need to go +con, SA health weapon and resist sleep armor, we also need OE jewels??
All while a nuker still only need b-sps, decent armor, decent weapon and some buffs to be able to kill any melee??

Molte

02-24-2006, 12:32 PM

Because you dont exp faster with +7jewlery.

BlazerX

02-24-2006, 12:35 PM

Actually all this melee vs range issues can be easily solved by giving melees some ranged skills, as some have suggested before.

Daggers should get a ranged skill called "throwing daggers" that are only limited to distance damage and can't be used up close. They are daggers primarily after all. Heck NCSOFT could take advantage of this and throw in a whole slew of new "throwing dagger" items in the game, etc...

Tanks should get some ranged masteries with Bow and Arrow, NOT like the real archers in the game mind you, but something less. OR they could itroduce a unique range skill for tanks such as spear throw specialization for tanks that they could balance nicely with other ranges.

Of course since Tanks are getting a "boost" with range skills, the ranged should also get a boost that gives them more defensive capabilities. Such as archers can get a boost to their p. def, and mages maybe to their run speed and a slight increase to their p. def.

This should balance Melees and Ranges nicely. Right now the problem is the gross specialization of different classes to fit their roles, tanks, archers, mages, etc... Maybe the solution is to hybridize the classes but not so much as that they render any of the classes redundant but find that sweet balance spot.

Taraza

02-24-2006, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ITS THE SONGS THAT MAKE SwS renowned for magic defense not only their passive and EVERYONE can have songs.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
You are so far off here taraza.
You should reconsider your argument with element resist songs,
it just doesnt work like that in game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain then will you, because I have no idea what you are talking about. Two songs and wind nukes are halved, one song and one dance and aqua nukes are halved, and the list goes on. I'd say songs or resist element buffs play a **** important role. Only a COMPLETE MORON would ignore the ability to HALF nuke damage with buffs that SPAN a party and not only themselves. I may be missing something but do explain how 'Guard' songs and dance with Song of Warding making no difference to balance in this game, please enlighten me. Magic Barrier is nothing alone, it simply doesn't cut it. You MUST add Prophet buffs or songs or better yet BOTH.

Also I'm not saying get OE jewelery but at least get up to date jewelery for christ's sake. There are many 70+ characters that dont even have A grade jewelery, let alone unsealed.

Me saying that classes need this specific armor, this specific tat set up, etc. does not say the game is unbalanced. MOST nukers have the same set up fool, me saying melee need a certain set up to balance is no different.

Wirashue

02-24-2006, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ITS THE SONGS THAT MAKE SwS renowned for magic defense not only their passive and EVERYONE can have songs.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
You are so far off here taraza.
You should reconsider your argument with element resist songs,
it just doesnt work like that in game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain then will you, because I have no idea what you are talking about. Two songs and wind nukes are halved, one song and one dance and aqua nukes are halved, and the list goes on. I'd say songs or resist element buffs play a **** important role. Only a COMPLETE MORON would ignore the ability to HALF nuke damage with buffs that SPAN a party and not only themselves. I may be missing something but do explain how 'Guard' songs and dance with Song of Warding making no difference to balance in this game, please enlighten me. Magic Barrier is nothing alone, it simply doesn't cut it. You MUST add Prophet buffs or songs or better yet BOTH.

Also I'm not saying get OE jewelery but at least get up to date jewelery for christ's sake. There are many 70+ characters that dont even have A grade jewelery, let alone unsealed.

Me saying that classes need this specific armor, this specific tat set up, etc. does not say the game is unbalanced. MOST nukers have the same set up fool, me saying melee need a certain set up to balance is no different.

[/ QUOTE ]

We haven't said that the songs and such is bad or doesn't do what it should, the problem is however that they SHOULDN'T be REQUIRED to compete with a nuker.

And as for the jewelery, getting OE jewels is exactly what you said is needed. If I have top b-grade jewelry (in your little world) it should mean that I could withstand nukes from a B-grade nuker, right?? The problem is tho that it doesn't work that way for those melee that doesn't benefit from your songs or passive m.def buffs and don't have 3 different kinds of buffers with them. Our discussion here is trying to cover the grey zone that goes from unbuffed to fully buffed with guard songs and such. Of course do melee's have a fighting chance when we are equiped in sleep resist armor, have FULL buffs and have gone for the max HP setup.
What we want tho is a fighting chance without needing all buffs that increases m.def and elemental resistance.

And basicly what you are saying is that a Tyrant can't compete with a nuker until he has reached a-grade then, since there isn't any fist-weapon with SA health before Dragongrinder.

And don't call me a fool, this thread wasn't made for flaming. :mad: :mad: :mad:
All nukers have the oppertunity to for which setup they want and still shot fast as hell or hard as hell because they have much better gear and SA's that increase the stats that they didn't change with the tatoo's.

Molte

02-24-2006, 02:04 PM

edit: nvm. No point of having 2 threads at the same time.

Torg

02-24-2006, 02:51 PM

Okay... here's the problem with the whole defensive buff argument.

Damage mitigated by Mental Barrier < Damage increase from Empower

Cutting damage in half is great but doesn't cut it down enough to significantly increase the amount of time it takes to kill that melee character. It may take twice as many spells but when the cast/cooldown of the spells are 1-2 seconds each its not that big of a deal. The mage now spends 10 seconds instead of 5 seconds and that's if multiple mages aren't targetting the buff recipient.

Lvl 72 Gladiator in Full Majestic Jewels had an M.def of only 550-ish on PTS. The 75 Wind Rider didn't fair much better with the top level of spirit barrier and only ended up in the high 700's. I was still taking 2000 damage per spell from a lvl 75ish necromancer with a non-glowing SoV.

Most of nukers can lower the target's resistance to their type of damage anyway which only makes it worse...

I don't like the idea of just making every class a hybrid class. I do like the idea of giving every class some reliable means of killing mobs/players and balancing the classes so that they all have some solo potential. The problem is that the game was designed around PVE and certain classes were designed for solo play which means that they can solo just as easily in PVP.

Even if every class had the potential to solo.. they'd just have to make it so that the xp bonus and kill speed boost were noticeable while grouping and it would happen.

Taraza

02-25-2006, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]

We haven't said that the songs and such is bad or doesn't do what it should, the problem is however that they SHOULDN'T be REQUIRED to compete with a nuker.

And as for the jewelery, getting OE jewels is exactly what you said is needed. If I have top b-grade jewelry (in your little world) it should mean that I could withstand nukes from a B-grade nuker, right?? The problem is tho that it doesn't work that way for those melee that doesn't benefit from your songs or passive m.def buffs and don't have 3 different kinds of buffers with them. Our discussion here is trying to cover the grey zone that goes from unbuffed to fully buffed with guard songs and such. Of course do melee's have a fighting chance when we are equiped in sleep resist armor, have FULL buffs and have gone for the max HP setup.
What we want tho is a fighting chance without needing all buffs that increases m.def and elemental resistance.

And basicly what you are saying is that a Tyrant can't compete with a nuker until he has reached a-grade then, since there isn't any fist-weapon with SA health before Dragongrinder.

And don't call me a fool, this thread wasn't made for flaming. :mad: :mad: :mad:
All nukers have the oppertunity to for which setup they want and still shot fast as hell or hard as hell because they have much better gear and SA's that increase the stats that they didn't change with the tatoo's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well thats the thing, you SHOULD and DO need certain classes to compete against others. If they balanced this game so that say any melee DD class has a fair chance at 1v1 against a mage then when it comes to mass PvP, like sieges, people will have these buffs that half nuke damage and then nukers will become obsolete and people will cry to nerf Guard songs/dances and such. Its a matter of taking everything into account, too many people are only focused on one type of damage dealer vs. another, which in mass PvP a well built clan/alliance will have the required buffers and support. The argument about whoever has the most nukers will prevail in seiges isn't that accurate either, more accurately you could say the side with the most DDs or the most high lvl chars will win. Archers can be far more dangerous than mages, especially when its a archer-heavy clan/alliance vs. a nuker-heavy clan/alliance. The magic resistance buffs far outweigh what pdef nukers can gain from buffs or shields or armor.

And about Orc damage dealers. Its almost fact by now that low lvl orc DDs get shiitted on but once they hit high lvls they gain PvP integrity greatly. Bison on Tyrants for example is a HUGE leap in becoming a better PvPer.

And I see nothing wrong with people who want to compete against nukers to use NM set. All feared nukers use same set up like acumen SA, DC armor, and +Wit tats so I see nothing wrong with saying for a Tyrant to truly compete they need NM light, Dragon Grinder HP SA, and +CON tats. Typically if a SH doesn't have Acumen I can smoke them and thats typically true for archers as well. If they get the first shot off before they are slept and debuffed they drop them fairly effortlessly.

Also I don't understand why people accept OE weapons so much yet ask them to OE some jewelery and they say its BS. Armor enchants are cheap, spoil easily, drop from raid bosses by the dozens (or at least in C3), and jewelery is very easy and very cheap to craft and jewelery recipes are easily aquired. Even now in C4 S grade jewelery recipes seem easy to aquire. I remember back in C2 I used to complain about the disgusting amounts of jewelery mats and recs I would get, to me that just SCREAMED OE me cause there is little to lose because its easily gained back. I don't know about your server but most nukers on mine have OE Homus or OE SoM (probably gonna be more OE SoV here soon with C4 release), why not use OE jewelery?

I shouldn't have called you a fool but I get heated on these discussions, mostly because I repeat myself so much, lol, but also because I believe people give up too fast without taking advantage of all the resources available to them such as NM sets, Waking Scrolls, Greater CP pots (which fighter classes can carry more of than mystics), and SwS/BD Guard buffs.

I feel the game is unbalanced too in favor of ranged classes but I really don't think its that bad, not half as bad as people make it out to be. I admit I'm more biased toward higher lvl PvP because when I was a low lvl back in C1 and C2 nukers were not a problem at all. Personally I have no idea what kind of havoc the addition of Acumen SA at C grade and easily aquired tatoos has done to low-mid lvl PvP. But I think PvP is the high lvl content of the game, NC Soft's idea of PvP is more along the lines of seiging which for the most part castles are controlled by high lvl clans/alliances.

Torg

02-25-2006, 01:50 AM

The balance issues get worse as you level and go up. Level 1 characters really don't have that many balance issues other then the fact that orc mystics are pitiful at that point.

Overenchanting jewelry does virtually nothing for a class that has no magic defense passives. I have a 57 warcryer wearing bottom D rings, a black ore necklace and two earrings of binding and his m.def is higher then the lvl 72 gladiator in full majestic (top A) that I had on the test server. I also discovered that my warcryer solos more efficiently then the gladiator did just by self-buffing and turning on soul cry.

I agree that its not about who has the most mages. Archers will work just fine as well. Its just silly to have any melee damage dealers or tanks in pvp... they're pointless. The group is better off to enlist bladedancers, swordsingers, overlords and warcryers to be there melee force instead because at least those classes can offer buffs in addition to adequate melee damage.

'All the things available to them' and then you list off A grade armor, CP Pots, waking scrolls and BD's/SwS's.
Out of that list I typically have access to just the potions and the waking scrolls. A grade armor isn't really an option for most people so isn't a valid suggestion not to mention many people at that level still can't afford it. BD's and SwS's... these would be better off in a mage/archer group so very rarely will you see them put into a melee group because they're not exactly all over the place (at least SwS aren't). So unless you want to buy 2 more accounts and assure that you always have SwS and BD buffs up and running it doesn't help the majority of players. Not to mention that the defensive dances only protect from one element at a time and in these huge pvp situations you're bound to be getting hit by more then one type of mage.
It still comes down to these 2 facts:
Offense > Defense
Ranged Damage Mitigation > P.def/M.def/Evasion Damage Mitigation

It will always be more efficient to not get hit then to try to soak damage and offensive buffs are always more effective then defensive buffs in this game.

So you're of the opinion that its not that bad but you do agree that the system isn't balanced... then there's really no point to posting because all you're saying is I agree with you but I'm willing to tolerate it.

Wirashue

02-25-2006, 03:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Well thats the thing, you SHOULD and DO need certain classes to compete against others. If they balanced this game so that say any melee DD class has a fair chance at 1v1 against a mage then when it comes to mass PvP, like sieges, people will have these buffs that half nuke damage and then nukers will become obsolete and people will cry to nerf Guard songs/dances and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the problem is that a melee requires those buffs to compete with an unbuffed nuker. What happens when the nuker has his buffs??

[ QUOTE ]

Its a matter of taking everything into account, too many people are only focused on one type of damage dealer vs. another, which in mass PvP a well built clan/alliance will have the required buffers and support. The argument about whoever has the most nukers will prevail in seiges isn't that accurate either, more accurately you could say the side with the most DDs or the most high lvl chars will win. Archers can be far more dangerous than mages, especially when its a archer-heavy clan/alliance vs. a nuker-heavy clan/alliance. The magic resistance buffs far outweigh what pdef nukers can gain from buffs or shields or armor.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one who wins the siege is the one with the highest amount of crowd control. That fact won't change unless you outnumber the enemy nukers with atleast 15 to 1. As I said before, sleep cloud is the best when it comes to close quarter fighting, since it quickly can render a charging melee force useless in just a few seconds.

[ QUOTE ]

And about Orc damage dealers. Its almost fact by now that low lvl orc DDs get shiitted on but once they hit high lvls they gain PvP integrity greatly. Bison on Tyrants for example is a HUGE leap in becoming a better PvPer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have bison yet, but I can't find anywhere on the skill description that it increases resistance to sleep and debuffs.
Bison is the best thing a tyrant has when fighting other MELEE'S and the occasional archer that you manage to reach.
It doesn't do anything good when fighting a nuker since you never even get the chance to even hit the nuker.

[ QUOTE ]

And I see nothing wrong with people who want to compete against nukers to use NM set. All feared nukers use same set up like acumen SA, DC armor, and +Wit tats so I see nothing wrong with saying for a Tyrant to truly compete they need NM light, Dragon Grinder HP SA, and +CON tats. Typically if a SH doesn't have Acumen I can smoke them and thats typically true for archers as well. If they get the first shot off before they are slept and debuffed they drop them fairly effortlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has been said before, if the nuker see's you in NM he just slows you and then nuke, or if you meet a necro he just paralizes you. Are you saying that melee's need to have 2 different types of armor just to be able to compete?? And maybe NCsoft can add a skill for melee's only that makes us see what class the nuker is, so we have time to switch armor.

[ QUOTE ]

Also I don't understand why people accept OE weapons so much yet ask them to OE some jewelery and they say its BS. Armor enchants are cheap, spoil easily, drop from raid bosses by the dozens (or at least in C3), and jewelery is very easy and very cheap to craft and jewelery recipes are easily aquired. Even now in C4 S grade jewelery recipes seem easy to aquire. I remember back in C2 I used to complain about the disgusting amounts of jewelery mats and recs I would get, to me that just SCREAMED OE me cause there is little to lose because its easily gained back. I don't know about your server but most nukers on mine have OE Homus or OE SoM (probably gonna be more OE SoV here soon with C4 release), why not use OE jewelery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps it is because ppl have already discovered that it doesn't matter if you OE the jewelery since the extra m.def you gain is too low and is immidiatly rendered useless because of b-sps that bypass it without trouble. It might do you some good if you already have high m.def due to passive m.def skills, but on the normal melee, you only take 30 less dmg. The change is to small to be of any great use.
And even if armor enchants are cheaper it still is going to cost you more in the end. you can spend 5 mil to make your weapon +5, but in order to make all your jewelery +5 it would cost almost 9 mil. (B-grade EA and EW, on barts)

[ QUOTE ]
I shouldn't have called you a fool but I get heated on these discussions

[/ QUOTE ]

Apology accepted

Taraza

02-25-2006, 04:27 AM

I totally disagree about the game becoming more unbalanced the higher the lvl. The higher the lvl the more defenses you get against nukers, the more buffs become available.

Melee and tanks DO have a purpose in PvP. If you can get a group of melee into a group of enemy nukers/archers they can GREATLY disrupt them due to stuns etc. Especially Warlords, they are to be feared at high lvls.......seriously. They run into a crowd of enemies and AoE stun. In a crystal room 3-4 Warlords could spam AoE stun and hit most, if not all, of the room. And look at 76+ skills for melee and tanks, they have a use in PvP though its mostly an assistive or disruptive role NOT a killing one (the AoE skills that make people lose targets should be fun :)). Getting melee into a group of enemies on an open field is difficult, but not impossible.

Sleep/root, mental spell resist is a lvl 76 passive skill that everyone gets.

Crowd Control, in terms of sleep, is nothing you can depend on at a seige. With MA buffs, NM sets, and waking scrolls they just aren't mana efficient at all. It will HARDLY land on people with MA and/or NM set. A Sorc or SpS would probably be better off unloading nukes.

Unbuffed nukers aren't that scary. Usually when people fight unbuffed nukers its a 1v1, in which sleep will smoke you, NOT their damage/casting speed.

I also cannot see how a Tyrant can have any difficulty reaching a nuker. With NM light set or someone who will wake you there should not be an issue. Rabbit up to them, if you are lucky maybe you'll have 60% or less HP by the time you reach them, you bust out Bison and its a matter of seconds before the enemy is downed. Bison alone is a great reason for Tyrants to use HP SA in my opinion. They can activate it with more HP and thus have more time to dish out MASSIVE damage. But even aside from Bison Tyrants can also just make it into range with a BoP Quick Recovery and use Puma (whatever the atk speed totem is) and unload quick and nice damage.

Again, I think this game is unbalanced. I think slow and casting speed is a problem as well. Im not saying melee are better. I'm just saying its not about melee vs. ranged or magic vs. physical or 1v1 or nothing like that. Every class has a role, killing isn't exactly the best thing melee do. Seiging is more than killing. The side with the most kills is not the winner. The side that can hold off an attack (which melee are good at, like holding chokepoints and stunning) wins or the side that can overcome their enemies defense wins.

Wirashue

02-25-2006, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you can get a group of melee into a group of enemy nukers/archers they can GREATLY disrupt them due to stuns etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key word in that sentance is IF.

[ QUOTE ]
Crowd Control, in terms of sleep, is nothing you can depend on at a seige. With MA buffs, NM sets, and waking scrolls they just aren't mana efficient at all. It will HARDLY land on people with MA and/or NM set. A Sorc or SpS would probably be better off unloading nukes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have lead melee's in to castle's and every time we got close to the nukers we got 3-5 sleep clouds over us. Even ppl in NM and with mental aegis on them got slept from that.
Sleep cloud isn't mana effective if only 1 nuker does it. But having 5 nukers do 1 sleep cloud each then it's really effective.

[ QUOTE ]

Unbuffed nukers aren't that scary. Usually when people fight unbuffed nukers its a 1v1, in which sleep will smoke you, NOT their damage/casting speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

A nuker that want to go for pure cast spd easely reaches 700 without buffs, and their nukes still does 1-2.5 k dmg.

[ QUOTE ]

I also cannot see how a Tyrant can have any difficulty reaching a nuker. With NM light set or someone who will wake you there should not be an issue. Rabbit up to them, if you are lucky maybe you'll have 60% or less HP by the time you reach them, you bust out Bison and its a matter of seconds before the enemy is downed. Bison alone is a great reason for Tyrants to use HP SA in my opinion. They can activate it with more HP and thus have more time to dish out MASSIVE damage. But even aside from Bison Tyrants can also just make it into range with a BoP Quick Recovery and use Puma (whatever the atk speed totem is) and unload quick and nice damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still doesn't get very far with rabbit if you get slept. Or even better, run against a sorc or SpS with rabbit, they throw cancel and voila, no more rabbit. And having someone running nxt to me using waking scrolls isn't a valid argument since it's only a matter of seconds before he's slept to.

[ QUOTE ]

Every class has a role, killing isn't exactly the best thing melee do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am as said before, a Tyrant, dealing dmg is all that I do good.
And if I'm not supposed to be able to kill anything with the dmg I do then what am I supposed to do?? Pad the nukers and archers PvP count??
I'm not gonna play anymore if that's all NCsoft thinks I'm capable of.

[ QUOTE ]
Seiging is more than killing. The side with the most kills is not the winner. The side that can hold off an attack (which melee are good at, like holding chokepoints and stunning) wins or the side that can overcome their enemies defense wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right, killing isn't all in a siege, the winner isn't determined by who kills the most.
But you'll have to agree that it's the side that kills the most and kills most effectivly that will win.
And again, melee's trying to hold a chokepoint is only holding it for a short time. Nukers aren't stupid enough to go into the chokepoint, they just stand outside it and nuke their way in.

MalineII

02-25-2006, 08:08 AM

There are many ways to balance ranged damage. Currently, none are in effect in Lineage II.

The balance as it is is...

Archers:
Weak Defense <--> Speed

In addition, in C1 there used to be:
Ranged Damage <--> Low DPS*

* This is broken. Remember how people were laughing out archer DPS in C1? Restoring this would do much to fix the bow - simply make it do more damage per hit and less over time than any other weapon.

For nukers, it's
Weak Defense <--> Slow/Sleep
Powerful DPS <--> MP Consumption*

* Which is once again broken. If a mage took a whole MP bar to kill an opponent, nobody would complain anymore. Killing 7 or 8 people on the same bar and then being dead meat is not balanced ;)

Wirashue

02-25-2006, 04:43 PM

Apparently this thread nor the e-mails to support did what it should, and that was to gain atleast some kind of response from GM/Devs/whatever so that we atleast know that the "game suggestions" are being read by them.

So I take it that it doesn't get read and in short meaning that they don't give a flying **** about what we think or feel.

And I know that they are going to be ****** about this kind of talk so I don't really expect this thread to be here the nxt time I check.

My L2 days are over since I can't bear to play my roll as target-practice for nukers. And there doesn't seem to be any use for a tyrant left in the game.

Cya around

Iconoclastic

02-25-2006, 05:00 PM

Okay, maybe I'm just a board noob and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but...

Isn't the point of all these buffs and protections and whatever to help people? I always thought half the fun in playing games like this is to use strategy and incorporate it into action. You take the strengths and weaknesses of your character, and try to use them to overcome the strengths of your enemy and exploit their weaknesses. If your a mage fighting someone who has all kinds of magic defense, then it sucks to be you, end of story. They exploit your weakness, your weakness being your dependency on m.atk. But that's where the roles of fighters come in, that's exactly why there are all these different roles and classes and things. Where one thing doesn't work, another will. That's how these games have always been played, they weren't meant for everything to be fair to everyone. If that were the case, everyone would have the same stats, same skills, same spells, same everything, just one faceless player hacking at another faceless player.

So chill out, quit whining, all of you. Do you really have to be reminded that your not being forced to play this game? You all voluntarily pay the monthly fee, nobody is holding a gun to your head. If it's really that horrible, go outside and ride a bike, throw a football, go to the beach, something. Just don't moan about petty little things like "His stats are better then mine! Boo frickity hoo!". Honestly, I don't know about some of you, but I stopped acting like I was in elementary school when I hit the 6th grade.

Torg

02-25-2006, 07:35 PM

I'd agree with your first statement that you don't know what you're talking about.

Balance isn't synonymous with homogenization. If the classes are balanced then there would be more diversity as people played the classes they enjoyed rather then the class with the biggest competitive advantage. The current inbalances in the game will eventually lead to homogenization as players realize that certain classes are superior. The only people that would remain on the weaker classes are the non-competitive or the ignorant.

Buffs are there to make a character more efficient but are balanced by the fact that the party is expected to have to include the buffer which means that the buffs have to be beneficial enough to justify the loss of extra damage/tanking/healing/etc.

Nice speech at the end of your post except for the fact that you're wasting your time whining about people whining about a game. So follow your own advice and head outside, ride your bike, do whatever and stop posting about things that you obviously don't understand.

Taraza

02-25-2006, 11:02 PM

In a way the dude is right though, ALL classes do have weaknesses. It just seems more people know about the melee weaknesses and do nothing to combat classes, like nukers, strengths. The game is unbalanced, there is no question but its not bad at all. Most of it can be blamed on bad set ups, bad buffing, and terrible tactics. I get SOOO ****** when i see melee run out in the open alone and get dropped and then complain. Its sickening. Melee strengths exist and people ignore them or just don't take advantage. I have explained before why you cannot balance a game without considering buffs and buffers and support classes. if you did that then people would MAKE SURE to get those buffs and support classes to get the upper hand and decimate the other class thus just reversing whatever balance you THINK may have been done. Besides nukers are not even the best damage dealers. Our alliance raided Baium just yesterday, JUST our 4 clan alliance :), and we smoked his *** with minimal deaths. He only dropped one item, Baium Ring, and guess who got the most XP and the drop, thats right the ARCHER group that I was in (SE, SwS, BD, Warlock, the rest archers, all SRs except one i believe). We got out of party buffs from a Prophet but did not take berserker spirit. We did another raid after that on some other boss in Silent Valley. Guess who did the most damage there? The MELEE group and they didn't even have a SwS for crit rate. But they had some heavy hitters like Tyrants and Glads. Our nuker groups weren't bad either. They both had BDs and SEs and all over lvl 65, many into the 70s. So people can say all they want that nukers are Gods and have no weaknesses and no equal but its a downright lie. There ARE classes just as powerful as them and melee damage even comparable to them. Range and slow run speed are problems but not so much that it makes melee useless.

Stanimir

02-26-2006, 03:57 PM

>>We got out of party buffs from a Prophet but did not take berserker spirit.
No OL for so a large ally? You sure? Ahh make at least one dominator to get emp3. So SEs dont take spots.

Torqq

02-26-2006, 06:47 PM

I think the game isn't balanced because the Koreans don't PVP like we do, or as often. If they did I would hope they would see the problems and fix them. In korea, they fight those lame organized arena battles, with 1 player stepping forward to face one enemy, most of the time self buffed. That's not PVP as we experience it, but for them it works and they consider the game balanced.

NC balances the game for PVE, with PVP being second fiddle. They have to be blind not to see 90% of all DD rerolls and sub classes playing archers or nukers. This won't change until they make the game balanced, which it is far from.

Jilly

02-26-2006, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In a way the dude is right though, ALL classes do have weaknesses. It just seems more people know about the melee weaknesses and do nothing to combat classes, like nukers, strengths. The game is unbalanced, there is no question but its not bad at all. Most of it can be blamed on bad set ups, bad buffing, and terrible tactics. I get SOOO ****** when i see melee run out in the open alone and get dropped and then complain. Its sickening. Melee strengths exist and people ignore them or just don't take advantage. I have explained before why you cannot balance a game without considering buffs and buffers and support classes. if you did that then people would MAKE SURE to get those buffs and support classes to get the upper hand and decimate the other class thus just reversing whatever balance you THINK may have been done. Besides nukers are not even the best damage dealers. Our alliance raided Baium just yesterday, JUST our 4 clan alliance :), and we smoked his *** with minimal deaths. He only dropped one item, Baium Ring, and guess who got the most XP and the drop, thats right the ARCHER group that I was in (SE, SwS, BD, Warlock, the rest archers, all SRs except one i believe). We got out of party buffs from a Prophet but did not take berserker spirit. We did another raid after that on some other boss in Silent Valley. Guess who did the most damage there? The MELEE group and they didn't even have a SwS for crit rate. But they had some heavy hitters like Tyrants and Glads. Our nuker groups weren't bad either. They both had BDs and SEs and all over lvl 65, many into the 70s. So people can say all they want that nukers are Gods and have no weaknesses and no equal but its a downright lie. There ARE classes just as powerful as them and melee damage even comparable to them. Range and slow run speed are problems but not so much that it makes melee useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

well obviously melee are better over long periods of time. swinging nonstop never having to get recharged adds up to alot but after a VERY long time of STANDING there not being a slow class trying to chase after others! mages use mp fast and do massive dmg in that time, then they get recharged and do it all over again.