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Iconoclastic
02-24-2006, 07:11 PM
This is pretty long, so if you really wanna read it, take a bathroom break, grab a quick snack, and make sure you're comfortable.

The more I play Lineage 2, the more ideas I come up with. I don't know if they've been discussed in the forum before, so bear with me.


Something that really kinda annoyed me was how unique the dwarven race was. Even though they don't have mystics, they're the only race that can make things (sure we've got common craft, but lets be honest... it's not that great) and it seems like everyone has one or two dwarven alts for the sole purpose of getting some extra adena through manufacturing or selling mats to manufacturers. But instead of making things even by taking away the dwarf's unique-ness, I thought it'd be interesting to make the other races MORE unique, to even things out.
So then I started thinking it'd be pretty nifty if every race had their own specialized feature, not for making adena, but just for the sake of making each race more different, more unique. I don't know if anybody else shares my opinion, but I think it's kinda boring that the only major difference between elves and dark elves is appearence and a few tweaks in stats and skills. Other then that, they have the same classes, same basic skills, same basic uses, features, even their villages are similar, one basic structure in the middle (the elf tree, the dark elf hand+energy ball thingy) with shops lined up around it and the starting point (Shilen temple, mother tree) just outside the village. Anyways, the point is I came up with new 'Race Features' for each race that I thought would make Lineage 2 alot more interesting, diverse, and just more fun.

So here goes


Elves.
My idea is basically just a variation of the whole 'dwarves make/find items' system thing. I thought that seeing as how elves are pretty much aligned with nature and 'the light' (good) then Herbology would be right down their alley. The idea is that monsters could drop different kinds of Herbs (like berries or leaves from different kinds of plants, maybe even fungus) and the entire elven race would have skills in herbology that would let them mix these herbs, the same way dwarves do, to make Medicines. You'd be able to use these medicines like you would any other consumable, but like I said before, elves are pretty much aligned with the light (good), so the medicines would only have beneficial effects. Like some medicines could increase your hp or mp regeneration rate, some could give you different kinds of buffs, etc. Basic good stuff.
Like with the Create Item skill, you'd be able to level up your Herbology skill, and that would let you make more and more potent medicines. Just like there are lesser healing pots, you could start out making lesser kinds of medicines, but as you level up your herbology skill you could make regular and enhanced medicines. Also, the more you level it up, you can learn more 'advanced' kinds of medicines, like medicines that have more then one effect or something.
And instead of randomly chancing upon recipes for these medicines, there would be an NPC stationed with the rest of the magisters and masters that teaches you the herbology skills.
The thought of making a whole new elf class dedicated to Herbology (maybe even 2, with the same roles as scavengers and artisans) has crossed my mind, but I haven't put enough thought into that to decide if it would be a good idea or not. I initially wanted this to be something that ALL elves could do, not just some of them. I also wouldn't know whether to make it a fighter or mystic class, either.
I might just be saying this because of my love for summoning, but I also had an idea that higher-level herbologists could have their own kind of stationary servitors. Like you would be able to summon a 'Magic Plant' or whatever, and a plant would grow up right next to you that would buff+heal you and your party members. It would have it's own set of hp and mp, that way it doesn't drain you of all your mp due to it constantly healing, and enemies can stop it by killing it, so you'd have to defend it to keep it alive, because it wouldn't be able to run away (it is a plant, after all). And you could summon different kinds of plants that have different strengths and weaknesses, like one kind of plant would have more powerful healing spells but less buffs, and another would have a variety of buffs but weaker healing capabilities. But it's stats would be based off yours, that way you don't end up with elven fighters that have a never ending source of health due to how powerful their servitors healing spells are, because fighters generally aren't that good with magic. Like I said before though, the plants would be stationary, and they would be uncontrolled servitors.


Dark Elves.
Ok, I know I'm gonna sound like a hypocrite, because of how I said I don't like how similar dark elves and elves are, but this is MY post so I'm allowed to say whatever I want. This idea was that dark elves would have the same basic system that elven herbology does, but with Hexology.
Dark Elves would be capable of collecting hex materials (rat tails, bat wings, the kind of things you might see a stereotypical witch use in her potions) from monsters, the same way that monsters drop dwarven mats (and the same way I suggested they drop herbs for elves), and mix hex mats with each other to make Hex Emblems, just like elves mix herbs to make Medicine. But unlike elves, dark elves are associated with dark (it's even in their name), so unlike medicine, hex emblems would have offensive traits.
Basically it's just the opposite of medicine, like instead of healing and buffing it's attributed to damaging enemy hp or mp, using curses and debuffing. I realized that there would be a fault to having hex emblems that just damage enemy hp, because then anyone could just save up a bunch of damage emblems and run around killing monsters way out of their level range. But there are alot of ways that hex emblems would be able to help you deal damage instead of just doing it for you. There could be hex emblems that reflect damage done to you back at the enemy, hex emblems with a poison/chill flame effect (gradually lower hp), hex emblems that add certain types of damage (fire, dark, water) to your attacks (ADD damage, not just give your attacks an element effect), hex emblems that only damage the enemy if they run, maybe even a hex emblem that uses wind to throw an enemy up in the air, and the resulting damage comes from how far they fell instead of any relation to how much magic attack you have.
As for debuffs, of course there would be the common ones, such as emblems that lower enemy stats like speed, defense, and magic attack. But seeing as how this system is exclusive to dark elves, I thought it should have some exclusive debuffs that other races can't get. Like a Confusion debuff: pretty common in games, the enemy runs off and attacks one of your enemies either until he gets killed or the debuff wears off, but if your too close to whatever enemy it attacks, then instead of attacking back, the enemy your victim attacked runs after you. Or a Leech debuff: a random stat of the enemies is significantly lowered, but in turn a random one is enhanced, but to less of an extent, as if one stat was leeching off the other (ex: p.atk -20, m.def +10). Or you could come up with a whole set of debuffs that consists of pre-determined stats leeching off others, whichever.
Like I said before, pretty much the same as herbology, so you'd have some kind of Hex Master NPC with the magisters and masters that let you learn skills so you can make hex emblems. You could level up an Hexology skill to get more powerful hex emblems and more kinds. Like with herbology, higher levels could get hex emblems with more then one effect, and maybe summon Obelisks instead of plants. Once again, opposite of herbology, so there would be different kinds of obelisks with different sets of debuffs, but still stationary, still uncontrolled, and still with their own sets of hp and mp. But I thought for obelisks, each one has an aoe debuff effect for enemies (one obelisk has a automatic physical defense aoe debuff, another has magic attack aoe debuff, etc) along with debuffs that they have to individually cast on enemies.

Side notes: I don't think it would be very hard at all to pull this off (the Herbology and Hexology systems) because it's just a variation of the dwarve's create item system, with some tweaks. Technically, the only work that you'd have to do to make this possibility a reality is plan out the specifics of what kinds of herb mats, medicines, hex mats, and hex emblems to make, what kind of effects they'll have, skill levels, how many herbs/hex mats you need for each medicine/hex emblem, drop rate for monsters, visual icons (what the items look like when dropped or in your inventory), a couple new NPC's, the stats for the summons, and a few other specifics. That might sound like alot, but it's already been done with dwarves and their create item system, and with potions that you can buy out of stores. Plus, because the dwarves already have a similar system, this should be easier now that we have a tried-and-true system to work off of. All in all, if I needed to, I could plan all that stuff out in a week or two, and I don't think it'd be too hard to transfer that stuff from paper into the game. By the way, for all you elf lovers out there.... DARK ELVES RULE!!! :P

moving on


Orcs.
I thought it'd be a bit much if each race got a whoooooooooole new set of item creating stuff, but I still wanna keep the race individuality thingy goin on, so I thought up something new. Like I said when I was talking about elven herbology, I have a love of summoning. When I use to play Diablo 2 I was always a necromancer (I'd get a necromancer in L2, but I don't like humans much, so I'm settling for a Phantom Summoner) which gave me my idea for the orcs. Orcs are in touch with nature, or at least that's what I've been lead to believe through the monk/tyrants Totem Spirits. But unlike elves, who're in touch with the more tranquil side of nature, orcs seem to have an affinity with the more chaotic side of nature, more so with it's animals then anything. So, my love of necromancy + orcs animal affinity = Orcs reviving defeated animals as allies! Orcs are already reknowned for their brute strength, so they really don't need any more power, but that doesn't mean they can't gain allies with power, right? It was my idea that Orcs could gain skills that allow them to return the souls of their fallen enemies to them, thus reviving them. But in doing so, whatever enemy they revive has a chance (let's say 75%) of remaining aggressive, and attacking the orc again. I'd be mad at whoever killed me, too, so no problem. But if the orc is successful in returning the victims soul peacefully, then the revived enemy will become your servitor! Pretty cool, eh?
But then I thought that there are some pretty powerful monsters out there. And that got me thinking about how many different kinds of monsters there are. So then I thought 'well what if you could only revive certain kinds? That should even it out a bit, right?'. Plus, I had mentioned that orcs have an affinity for the ANIMALS of nature, not the monsters. So it would work out pretty evenly, in my opinion, if orcs could only revive animal-type monsters, instead of all kinds (I don't think the undead have souls, so it'd be hard to return what they didn't have. That's why they're undead, isn't it?). And the skills you learn could only let you revive monsters that are advanced as that level (learn the skill at lvl 10, revive lvl 10 monsters. at lvl 15, lvl 15 monsters. lvl 20, lvl 20 monsters). Another thought, higher level orcs could learn skills that enhance the stats of their revived allies, like +spd for faster allies, +str for stronger allies.
Also, seeing as how they are, after all, wild animals, they should remain 'wild' and should act just like an uncontrolled servitor would, or as it would before it was the orcs ally. It would only attack what the orc attacks, or what is attacking the orc.
I don't think the orc should possess the ability to heal the revived animals, though, because if you can't heal it, you have to get another when it dies. When you have to get another, the animal is more likely to attack you again then it is to become your ally. More fighting equals more gameplay, which equals more experience, which equals more efficiancy (and more adena, for all your greedy little hearts). Speaking of experience though, it's only fair that you get a slight experience cut, like all the summoners do when they summon servitors. The experience cut should be less then the cut of controlled servitors (such as shadows) though, because controlled servitors are more powerful then animals, and the animal an orc revives will still retain its original stats (until higher levels, when I said the orcs would be able to enhance their revived allies).
Besides, I always thought it was unfair that orcs are the only race without any form of summoning, so this should even things up a bit in that respect.


Humans.
Strength in numbers, that's always been a rule of thumb for humans, that's how they end up winning so many wars, and that's how they came to be the dominating race in Aden. It even effects our gameplay, more people in a party, more monsters and more powerful monsters defeated. It effects our economy too, in the form of clans fighting for castles. The clan with the highest number of powerful clan members usually comes out on top, and sets the tax rate. Variation is also a human attribute in Lineage 2, because humans have the potential to be anything they want, in terms of class. So I thought up a system that combines the term 'Strength in Numbers' and Variation in quite a beneficial way.
Here's the plan. You've got a human. You want your human to be stronger. You think to yourself 'hmm, maybe I should join a party... but with who?'. There's an Orc right in front of you, and you think 'he looks strong, maybe I should ask him if he'll party with me'. To your left, there's an elf, and you think 'hey, they'd be good support with their bow'. To your right, there's a dark elf and you think 'I'll bet she has powerful spells'. Behind you, there's a dwarf, and you think 'he could take alot of hits for such a little guy'. So you wanna party up with all of them, but when you look at yourself, you can't think of why anyone would want to party with you. There's nothing special about you, your just a human. Your look practically screams 'average'. There must be something you can do that would make you beneficial to a party, right? Well, I thought of a rather useful little way to make humans especially useful in parties.
There's power in numbers, and variety is key. Now, what if, when a human parties with you, you were to gain additional enhancements just because he's a human? What if humans had passive abilities that surface only when they're partied with other races? For example, wouldn't it be great if a human partied with an orc, and suddenly, the orc felt stronger? Or if a human partied with a dark elf, and suddenly the dark elf's spells got stronger? Or if the dwarf found he had more hp then he did before he partied with the human?
In case you have the IQ of a marshmellow and haven't figured it out yet, I'm saying that I think humans should learn passive skills that allow for them and their party members to have enhanced skills, depending on who's in the party. For example, a human could learn a skill that grants him and the rest of the party a +5 p.atk when partied with an orc. As that skill gains levels, it gains potency.
And depending on what race the human is partied with, different skills are enhanced. If a human parties with a dwarf, +p.def, elves = m.def, dark elves = m.atk, and humans... well, I honestly haven't figured out what to give humans... speed maybe? And I thought as humans gain higher levels, they gain the potential to have more stats enhanced. Like once they get the 'Dark elf party member' skill up to 10, they'd have m.atk +50, and it could give a bonus of accuracy +25, and each one gains +5 for every skill lvl. I also thought that for every 5 lvls the skill gains, it could get a stat jump, so on the fourth lvl it would be +20, but then on the fifth, it would be +30, then on the sixth it would be +35, get it?
This might lead to some issues with big parties being too powerful, but come on, a big party is already powerful.


So yea, those were some things I thought would make the game a whole lot more interesting. There's probably all kinds of flaws in my ideas, but then again there's all kinds of flaws in Lineage 2, but that doesn't make Lineage 2 bad. I've got some more ideas that don't have to do with races that I'll post about later. So tell me what you people think.

:cool: what makes him think he's so cool, anyways?

Nanashi_Naomhan
02-25-2006, 06:31 AM
since this is a dwarves are overppowered thread
let me shoot it down and save others the hastle

dwaves have craft/spoil and nothing else
if you are proposeing a boost thats where it needs to go

kk? thx

Schmusekatze
02-25-2006, 06:40 AM
Just one question to you:

Are you ready to sarcrifice all your elfen, dark elven, human and orc skills but two melee skills (which are only useable with different weapons equipped)?

If the answer is yes, then I am all for this idea. If the answer is No... well, then let us just keep it the way it is and let all races but dwarves be good at leveling, PvP, sieging and generally killing things, while dwarves remain good at gathering and producing material.

[ QUOTE ]
And instead of randomly chancing upon recipes for these medicines, there would be an NPC stationed with the rest of the magisters and masters that teaches you the herbology skills.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you want your own elf-crafting, and instead of making it fair and have a need to gather and register recipes, just like the warsmiths do, the elves should be able to just buy them ?

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said before, pretty much the same as herbology, so you'd have some kind of Hex Master NPC with the magisters and masters that let you learn skills so you can make hex emblems.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same for Dark Elves, eh ? Want all the benefits of crafting, but noooo. No need to gather recipes, we just buy them at an NPC.



Gathered Kitten

_Charmille_
02-25-2006, 12:13 PM
Orcs are born from Fire. We have no love for animals, we're creatures of Fire so why would we be some hippy jippy necromongerers who raise killed animals from the dead? We dont need summons or the likes, nor do we need some revival skills. What we need is to be the creatures born from Fire. If orcs should be changed in some way, it should be something that makes the element of our Father Paagrio more visible.

And truth be told, I dont want to be collecting hex, herb and crafting parts while I hunt. I have enough trouble with space as it is now.

Humans are the medium, but why would they enchant other races? Why would an orc benefit from the fact that humans need masses to do something?

And finally, the dwarves before me voiced some pretty nice arguments as to why other races dont need boosting now ;)

Eriot
02-25-2006, 01:42 PM
i dont like the ideas at all, i would love to see more individuality to the races but this is not the way to go. i totaly agree with what the kitten said :)

Iconoclastic
02-25-2006, 02:09 PM
To nameless1, it wasn't intended to be a 'dwarves are overpowered thread', because dwarves aren't overpowered, I've got an artisan and personally I think he's pretty weak, but that's just my opinion. I was just tryin to say that the dwarven race is really unique because of their roles with items, and I thought it would be interesting to make each race more diverse. Because unless your a dwarf, your role in the game is pretty much entirely combat based, because dwarves are thought of for combat ability AND their skills with items. And I know the game itself is combat based, but I just thought my ideas would make the game more interesting, that's it. So go 'shoot down' someone elses post, I'm just throwin out suggestions that I think would be fun.

To schmuzekatze, I don't know what sacrificing skills has to do with anything. And the NPC idea is the same as everything else, just a suggestion, which is what this whole forum is about, so quit trying to belittle me. If you can spot out all these problems so easily, then why don't you help me look for solutions too. I'm just trying to make this game better.

To _Charmille_, your doing the whole role playing thing, kudos to you, whatever. But Destroyers aren't the only kind of Orc there is, half of a Tyrants power comes from his Totem Spirits of ANIMALS. One of the first skills a monk can learn is Totem Spirit Wolf, which increases his speed. As for 'needing' hippy jippy (by the way, wtf is hippy jippy supposed to mean?) summons, that's like saying why do they 'need' different hairstyles, faces, fishing equipment, newbie guides, gatekeepers, soulshots, healing potions, raid bosses, or clans. You don't need any of them, but people spoke up one day and said they thought it would be a good idea, and it was. The hexs and herbs would play the same role as dwarven crafting parts, you'd be able to sell them if you don't want them in your inventory, which brings me to my next point. Nobody would force you to pick them up, so don't whine about trouble with space (which was taken care of with the extra space you can get in inventory and warehouses through fishing). And half the human part of my post was dedicated to explaining 'why would they enchant other races'. They gain power through numbers, and because they've been doing it for so long, they would be able to harness that power and bring it to their party members. I don't even know why a destroyer, of all classes, would turn down the chance to become even more powerful then they already are.
'And Finally', Orcs are a proud race, true enough, but you disgrace them with your arrogance.


If anyone would point out flaws and help me find solutions to them, then please do so, otherwise please quit being so rude. If you absolutely have to try and make others feel as though they're less then you, do it to the bots who can't even raise their own characters.

SPS
02-25-2006, 02:11 PM
I think the ideas are really well thought out, but i dont feel there is a need for any of these major changes. Let dorfs mess about with their spoil and craft, im happy to click and kill mindless...for hours...and hours...and hours....

Iconoclastic
02-25-2006, 02:11 PM
And Eriot, that was just plain rude, so you can just screw off. If you can take 2 extra minutes to tell me you didn't like anything you saw, why can't you take an extra 1 to say what you WOULD like to see. Be constructive, not destructive

Schmusekatze
02-25-2006, 02:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
To schmuzekatze, I don't know what sacrificing skills has to do with anything. And the NPC idea is the same as everything else, just a suggestion, which is what this whole forum is about, so quit trying to belittle me. If you can spot out all these problems so easily, then why don't you help me look for solutions too. I'm just trying to make this game better.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do post my own ideas, but that does not stop me from commenting on other peoples ideas.

You are saying, that dwarves ability to create items is making them unique, and that you want more uniqueness for all races. Sounds good. But you suggest to give Elfs and Dark Elves crafting abilites, which does not make them unique, but instead destroyes the uniqueness of Dwarves.

My comment about sacrificing skills is logical...
Dwarves do have Spoil OR Craft and 2 Combat abilities (Warsmiths also get golems).

The usual non-dwarf char got so many skills, that they do not fit on one hotbar.

This is said to be fair, as dwarves are said to make so much money with their craft or spoil skill.

Now you want elves to have herbalism/poison crafting. Naturally the items that are created in that way, would basically be consumed like Soutshots, so they would be a general extra income for the elves. And that is not fair to the dwarves, as the dwarves got the monopoly on crafting due to their lack on comabt skills.

If elves would now spend their whole life learning herbalism, their fighting or spellcasting skills would naturally have to suffer, to stay in balance.

Btw. with C4 and Common Crafting we already reached the point, where Every Race can craft their own potions, including the must haves of haste, alacrity, magic haste and GHPs.

Here is some uniqueness for the races:

Elves: Every Elf can cast healing spells.

Darkelf: Every Darkelf can cast drain life spells.

Human: Got the most diversity of specializations

Orc: Are the chars with the most HP and almost every Orc skill is special to their race, be it the whole tyrant class or the special buff effect range of WC and OL.

Dwarf: Can Spoil or Craft.

You see, the diversity for all races is already there.

If you post suggestions, you need to be ready to have a discussion about it and you may need to accept, that your suggestion does not meet a lot of people in their favour.

Oh and although I do not mind board newbies posting suggestions, it is generally a natural thing, that board users, who got a couple posts aquired are less likely to meet extensive criticism in their suggestions.. That is most likely due to the fact, that they tend to post less radical suggestions and stay more with the small things, that actually got a chance to get implemented.

Favoured Kitten

SPS
02-25-2006, 02:29 PM
I dont really like the ideas but to improve them in favour of dwarfs, parhaps allow BH the ability to also find the same mats as the LE and DE and make the NPC charge a high price, or you could go to a WS who could also do the craft. That way dorfs remain unique and the elvs have the option to do it if they choose so.

Iconoclastic
02-25-2006, 02:34 PM
You were alot more fair in that post, thanks. It just gets on my nerves that these are just suggestions and everyone is talking to me as if they thought I didn't agree with the way Lineage 2 is and I want to disrupt the balances or something. I just thought my ideas were interesting and with other peoples help, I'd find a way to tweak them until there would be a way to balance everything out and still come out with new features. Yea, not everyone is gonna agree, but they can at least be respectful instead of just acting like "Pff, whatever board newb, you don't know what your talking about". And even thought people might like L2 the way it is now, I hate it when you play a game so much it's like your doing the same thing over and over and over again. I just wanna keep L2 from getting stale, so I say keep the new features coming!

Iconoclastic
02-25-2006, 02:36 PM
whoo hoo! first contructive response so far

SPS
02-25-2006, 02:36 PM
Definatly. Id love more out of the grind type events which actually hold interest. ATM we have the olympiad but thats for high levels only at end game, and we have the lottery/bingo & monster race, but none of these really took up. Fishing seems to be a big improvement but i still think more needs to be done. How about in-game snowboarding, that'd rock XD

Eriot
02-25-2006, 02:52 PM
no i wasnt being rude i just dont agree with you. i just dont think that introducing racial crafting would do any good at all. and yes i would like to see more individuality between the races as i said. but to give all races a special craft does just make them more as each other. i love the fact that dwarf are the only one with craft skill (well before c4 that is) and all the diferences between the races.