Should NCSoft sell ingame assets?

[Medina1]

This post is NOT about raid farmers or bots although they will be addressed. To anyone replying please talk about the topic issue and not raid farmers and bots. Thank you.

I bring this topic up because we have become infested with undesirables. They keep popping up because there's money to be made. There are articles out there that talk about how the market for game assets has become a multi-million dollar enterprise. The question now is should NCSoft sell ingame assets for cash?

Hypothethically let's say a raid farming group bring in 50 accounts.
50 accounts x $20 = $1,000 (startup cost)
50 accounts x $15 = $ 750 (monthly maintenance cost)
For them to buy and maintain these accounts then they must be making money.

Now what if NCSoft sold ingame assets. One person hitting A grade could buy all the gear he/she needs with the swipe of a credit card.
+3 Soul Bow with Cheap Shot = $250
+3 full unsealed Majestic Jewels = $100
+3 full unsealed Majestic Light = $250
Total = $600

So 2-3 people buying from NCSoft can easily negate the profits from farmers. In other words NCSoft won't have to rely on profits from account subscriptions to make money when they can make so much more money by selling their own assets. How much should a Valakas necklace sell?

Cons: Many will say they will quit. It will make the game too easy. It will destroy the dwarves. I'm sure you will add many more to this.

Pros: For NCSoft making more money with less subscriptions. More casual gamers will play.

Let's face it. MMOs are no longer games for children. Many adults play and with them comes their credit cards.

To anyone replying please bear in mind that NCSoft is a corporate entity and it exists to make money. If they aggressively remove the plague in the servers then there must be an alternative means for them to make a profit.

[EcronyteIDC]

as much as I dont like the idea....

NCsoft would lose lots of money if they got rid of all the bots and farmers. That is an undisputable fact.

Would they be willing to lose that cash in order to improve the game for live players? I dunno. But more often than not in buisness, the dollar speaks louder than the customer base. I would imagine that would be the case with NCsoft.

Now if NC could make money from virtual assets, maybe they woulndt mind losing the farmer accounts. Them seeling adena would make them lots of money and it would destroy the market for the other adena sellers. And the farmers would start dissappearing from game. Or at very least become less pervasive.

But on the flip side to that, then people could legitly buy all their 1337 gear. It would take the enjoyment, or pride out of crafting your own stuff, and working for what you have. And make it harder for people who dont want to waste money to compete.

But....... its not like things arent that way already. I don't think the fact that it violates the EULA stops too many people.

[Splatter]

Simply put it would create the haves and the have nots. Also it would undermind the policies the company has in place, thus making it hard for them to enforce.

They could change the policies, but the current policies in place give them better control. Any changes would put them into more of a grey zone in the law, and i don't thing a ruling against them is the best thing.

[Spudnik]

a couple sides to this issue i want to address:

simply put, i like the idea.

only thing is, i dont have a creditcard of my own, i pay for everything by cash. (i know how creditcard machines work, i programmed them for months and i dont feel entirely too safe.)

what i will become is a hard worker for my drops. others will gladly take a swing at me in pvp because i dont have the gear to compete at the same level, and i wont be able to play the market for mys tuff becasue there wont BE a market for my stuff.

if NC sold in game iassets, why should i? why should you?

and as you stated, who needs crafts when you can buy what you need.

it would nerf us all with one big badd stick.

the negatives outweigh the positives in my view.

[Glav]

No. A thousand times, no. It won't change anything, just make the special people work harder to undercut NCSoft.

[Lord Chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Simply put it would create the haves and the have nots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the thing, isn't it? The game is already split up like that.

[Splatter]

Then i stand by my second statment.

[Schmusekatze]

As the system is now, I play the game and have my goals, wich include earning my equipment the legal way.

I am taking pride in what I have aquired and I do not mind, that other people, who worked harder than me, or got better money making skills than me (within the rules !), are ahead of me.

What I do not like is someone with more RL money getting LEGALLY ahead of me.

If you allow the buying of equipment, what will come next ?

15$ per instant level up ? Hey, that is one month payment...
20$ per 100% insurance oer item ? Never loose your precious from dying again.

500$ for 5 hero tournament wins and 100 points for the hero competition ?

Oh and I would say, let's just buy castle ownership for 1000$, the clan or ally can easily pool that money.

In a perfect world, RL money would not have impact on a game. We are all playing this game for fun. We got teenagers, adults and grandparents. We got people in school, university, workers, unemployed and people with a university or college degree, master, bachelor and doctors. We got male and female players. We got players from all over the world. We got legal players from all over the world and cheaters from all over the world.

Let's not design the game in a way, that it will legally allow the RL cashroll to have a heavy imact on the gameplay.

To counter a few arguments right away: I could affort buying my gear with the aforementioned pricelist, but I would not really feel like I earned it.
To me there IS a difference, between working a few hours in RL to earn the RL cash or earning the aequivalent ammount of virtual cash in maybe a month or two.

Cash Kitten

[Mazahs]

Simply, NCSoft has the power to control the item and adena market by opening a action/trade site. Have a set exchange rate for adena and from there it would work its self out.

These MMO publishers need and should get out of the dark ages and take control of the out of game market. By taking control it makes trasfers of items and in game items much safer from fraud. Also it will pad their bottom line and what company wouldn't want that.

Point... you'll NEVER get away from the professional farmers so why not take control of the situation. Set a exchange rate for currancy, use paypal for funds transfer and collect a small fee for providing a safe system. Offer a service to transfer characters to different account using paypal once again. Offer a pre-leveled character that is leveled to say, level 52 to 65ish or something in that area.

Granted this will likely upset some but those that are going to buy item, currancy and accounts are going to do it one way or another. So why not make it safe and legel by offering this as a service while making money doing it.

Peace

[Splatter]

Embracing the secondary market is a dark path that will hurt the MMO genre. It will also place the gaming companies in a very awkward postion as they won't be able to enforce their own EULA without breaking it.

Their can be no win-win in this.

[Oxin]

For me half the fun of the game is making money by playing the economy cleverly and the satisfaction you get when you finally receive that desired weapon or armor.

[Tom_Forcade]

if they made exp and drops all 10x what they are now there wouldn't be much buying/selling outside of the game. it would dry up fast...

it's some ******s at ncsoft who think that you shouldn't be able to access the end game unless you pay chinese farmers or get carpal tunnel syndrome that are to blame.

[Splatter]

I disagree......

I will reach what you call endgame, and all in a honest manner.

[EcronyteIDC]

I dunno I dunno.

I really don't want to come across as a supporter of NCsoft selling adena. The idea rubs me the wrong way.

but seriously people say that it would split the game into people who buy adena online, and people who dont.

!!! Its already that way!!!

The seconday market is out there, and people are using it. People are botting and cheating their butts off. So I dont think that aspect would change either way.

I just think with NC soft in control of the secondary market they could put the farmers out of buisness.

With farmers running the secondary market, we get a game flooded with them.

But honestly I think the best thing that could happen would be NCsoft being able to pursue adena selling websites legaly. Shut them down. But again I think that would cut into their profits, so I'm not holding my hopes out for that one.

[Amborix]

It's true, thats the only way to eliminate pro farmers. But lets face it. They may only have 10% of the people left. When the official way to rule the game is to have the highest spending limit on the credit card.

People play MMO's to have a challenge. To earn there power against others. Not to just buy the most 1337 character possible. There is an MMO like that.

I believe the only way to reduce farming, which they won't do, is to raise drops. Some thing more attuned to Western players. I guarantee a relaxed server would have fewer farmers.

Power leveling would still be a problem, even if NCsoft sold items. If their is a demand that can be profited from, supply will come.

[Tukker]

[ QUOTE ]
As the system is now, I play the game and have my goals, wich include earning my equipment the legal way.

I am taking pride in what I have aquired and I do not mind, that other people, who worked harder than me, or got better money making skills than me (within the rules !), are ahead of me.

What I do not like is someone with more RL money getting LEGALLY ahead of me.

If you allow the buying of equipment, what will come next ?

15$ per instant level up ? Hey, that is one month payment...
20$ per 100% insurance oer item ? Never loose your precious from dying again.

500$ for 5 hero tournament wins and 100 points for the hero competition ?

Oh and I would say, let's just buy castle ownership for 1000$, the clan or ally can easily pool that money.

In a perfect world, RL money would not have impact on a game. We are all playing this game for fun. We got teenagers, adults and grandparents. We got people in school, university, workers, unemployed and people with a university or college degree, master, bachelor and doctors. We got male and female players. We got players from all over the world. We got legal players from all over the world and cheaters from all over the world.

Let's not design the game in a way, that it will legally allow the RL cashroll to have a heavy imact on the gameplay.

To counter a few arguments right away: I could affort buying my gear with the aforementioned pricelist, but I would not really feel like I earned it.
To me there IS a difference, between working a few hours in RL to earn the RL cash or earning the aequivalent ammount of virtual cash in maybe a month or two.

Cash Kitten

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have said it better, totally agree.

[Rothyn]

First of all, as nice as the idea is, several people are right in saying that the farmers would only compete.

But you seem to forget something. The number one reason they wouldn't sell adena is because it completely undermines what the developers were going for. NCSoft will never sell adena, because it is appalling to damage such a beautiful game further by making the corruption seem more right by doing it themselves.

If you want to buy your entire game, equips and all, then go play FFXI online, where the Gil ads are right on the freaking SITE.

The reason Lineage II is a competitive game because the system is different than of any of the other competing games, pvp wise, and the beautiful graphics.

I don't think that they would purposely violate their own rules, their EULA, to give in to profit. It wouldn't be profit anyway...people would buy their assets, hit hte highest level, and then quit faster, seeing nothing left to do.

No there are better ways of getting rid of illegits. Like crashing the server market. Which might I add, is fun, maniacal, and is a tribute to the 1930's stockmarket crash!

So there's my two cents.


P.S: The day NCSoft sells adena for profit is probably the day I leave.

[RupleSkin]

Them selling adena would make the game look like the racket that conspiracy theorist say it is. Legit players would quit. As it is now, they just cuss ebaying and blame farmers. The best idea is a relaxed server for the have-nots (myself included as of late)

[Z0idberg]

I think we just need a program like 'Warden' for WoW and the problem would reduce significantly.

[PrivatePancak3s]

GameGaurd is a joke really.. thats the problem :P

[Splatter]

You know whats funny. You didn't want this to be a thread talking about farmers and bots, but everything in your post was just about that.....

To your question "Should NCSoft sell ingame assets?"

Inorder to stay within the topic and not to continue this foreverending loop this has became all a person can say is.

No!

[aZZmodan]

I really don't want to say what I am going to say... but I really think that things have come up to a point that.. it may be the only way.

NCSoft makes a bundle of money from the accounts that botters run.. Maybe even more so then from the accounts of legit players. So, is NCSoft going to take action against the botters? Whoever think that they 're going to is, to say the least, gullible. If they wanted to, they would have done it allready. It's really quite easy...

Now, should NCSoft sell in-game funds for RL money? What would be the point? I can't see why getting rid of the botters by placing an official "botter" in their place would be a step forward...

There is only one thing we can do really.. Doesn't NCSoft want to lose all the money it makes from botters? Then, I say, take away the money it makes from legit players, you, me, the guy next door, by... by getting all together and cancelling our acounts for, not much, 1-2 weeks... What do you think they would think then?

[Splatter]

They do ban....

For every one they remove, they have to buy more. But thats not the point of this thread.

Maybe this is just the nature of the beast, something that will always be present. And something we will just have to learn to put up with.

[aZZmodan]

Well, I really don't think we must learn to live with it...

Isn't this game made for us? Aren't we keeping it there by paying for it? Should we have the power or not? I think that, we must... and we DO! Take the game back... Show them we mean business. Get rid of the botters or 3000 people quit paying tommorow. How would that sound?

P.S. Don't bother saying that this can never be done.. I know... all too well. That doesn't mean it couldn't work now, would it?

[Spudnik]

you want us to boycot L2 so that NC will ban people.

theres some logic.

"hmmm since NC wont ban people, i will take it upon myself to ban myself for 2 weeks. that should teach them a lesson."

[Darkmotion]

Greetings,

[ QUOTE ]
Get rid of the botters or 3000 people quit paying tommorow. How would that sound?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahahahahaha ! So you're asking 3K people addicted to crack to just stop crack ?

You go first.... ROFL !

I don't think they should sell adena. It would basically be a "game breaker". I don't think NCSoft is stupid enough to kill its own game.

And to say I was amoungst the few elite peeps who opened this pandora's box to make some pocket cash. We did so well the criminals decided to take over...

HAhahahahahaha, back then, people would say : What's an "e-bay" ?

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil

[/ QUOTE ]

[Medina1]

I reply to myself because I don't want to point at anyone.

There are many threads where players complain of raid farmers and bots. What would happen if NCSoft became really aggressive and hired more GMs? GMs cost money. Banning would decrease subscriptions and decrease income. Now let's not talk about corporate profits but ingame economy.

What would happen to the ingame economy if all the farmers got banned? Prices would go up, people would complain, and people would quit. Sure you can easily get items from manors but those do not provide key materials like BoP shafts, FP armor tempers, Elven Mithril Glove designs to name just a few.

If NCSoft is to become aggressive then there must be a way to balance corporate profits and the ingame economy. I believe sale of ingame assets can do this.

[Spudnik]

actually in Both cases, the economy would collapse.

and in Both cases the players loose. sure the house wins our favour, but how much does that pay? you cant maintain a server based on the fact that your users adore you.

[r_wrong]

Re: Should NCSoft sell ingame assets?

thought they already did??

[Splatter]

Nope......

[r_wrong]

you sure?

[Splatter]

[ QUOTE ]
you sure?

[/ QUOTE ]

Postive.... Would this Orc face lie to you? :)

[Darkmotion]

Greetings,

[ QUOTE ]

If NCSoft is to become aggressive then there must be a way to balance corporate profits and the ingame economy. I believe sale of ingame assets can do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

*points accusingly towards Medina1*

I beleive you are a nut.

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil

[/ QUOTE ]

[Medina1]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote: Splatter
Postive.... Would this Orc face lie to you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I thought that was a green fish.


[ QUOTE ]
Quote: Darkmotion
I beleive you are a nut.


[/ QUOTE ]
Honey roasted and salted!

[Skyler]

No.

NCSoft don't rely on farmer subscriptions, it's proven in many examples that MMO's make more money from being clean than from being farmer infested. It's also in NCSoft's interest to repeatedly ban farmer accounts as it generates them more revenue if everyone is obsessed with saying that NC does things for money.

[BlazerX]

I dont give a care what anyone's "justifications" are for wanting NCSOFT to sell ingame items, but the idea is purely idiotic and stupid. I'll use those very strong words. There is no justification for cheating. What would be the purpose of playing if you can just buy everything with real money? I guess the people who play that are like millionaires in real life will always win then huh? How stupid is that?

A very strong NO to ingame selling of items by NCSOFT. It sure isn't working for SOE's EverQuest is it? Why the hell do you think it would work here?

Also, there are already games out there that does this legally. Play one of them if you want it so bad. This game is good as itis.

[Malkavian]

In a word:No

This would just make it easier for people to justify spending $10 for them to get top gear each grade etc. Might as well give all the weapons to NPCs sales people as well, no legit players would be playing the market for money anymore if it become legit to just out and out buy it.
It would probably not get rid of any of the farmers either.

Lets face facts: They are in every, every, every mmo game out there. And they will continue to be so long as there are those lazy and/or rich enough to pay them.

[Stanimir]

as much as i hate advertising visit project enthropia, well back in time a guy spent 100k usd to buy an asset (but it's like invenstment since he can have real money tax). Well, L2 cant compete to that; all legit players will leave the game.
honestly, NCSoft must be glad OP doesn't work in their marketing dept.

[Winona_]

[ QUOTE ]
The question now is should NCSoft sell ingame assets for cash?

[/ QUOTE ]


No spank you.

[ptikiki]

This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure what to think about it.

One downside that has not been said already (I think) is that it would probably ruin company's reputation, and everytime they bring up a new game players would think "I'm not gonna step in that game if they are gonna start selling assets in 6 months".
But you can answer that its already the case: just replace "selling assets" in the sentence by "letting 3rd market activity enter the game".

There sure is proof that a game can prosperate without such activity, but the 2 big games I can think of:
_one is dead from aging, and was there when internet was still clean of e-thugs
_the other has no "market", and market brings a new dimension to a game (add to that that this "other" has no gameplay value after 6 months of playing...)

I believe, eventually, with the rate China is growing, farming will become less and less interesting; but they could maybe be replaced in the end by new peoples (africans?)

About peoples saying it would ruin market, you are wrong because you forget one major factor: NCsoft has total control on that.
They can for example:
_make NPCs who sell materials
_increase drop rate
_make new quests worth doing with good rewards

Now to answere original question: should NCsoft sell assets, "I dont know"...
They probably already thought about it, and since they didnt do it, I guess theire conclusion was they dont want to deteriorate game company.

Honestly I'm staring to believe there is no solution to all of that: its not a game problem but a RL problem, the way our (world) society is built.
I dont know how it is in other countries, but in mine people's behaviour and way of think has changed much past year: they care less about moral, and theire head is filled with such ideas as "I deserve it, me > others, I want it = I buy it, lets impress my neighbour so he thinks I'm badass".

[EcronyteIDC]

again, I hate to play devils advocate, because over the course of this thread I have decided I wouldn't want NC to control the secondary market. Because its not ethical, and although Im sure it would get rid of many farmers, the chances are too good that plenty would stick around. So all in all I don't like the idea.

But Im surprised to see that so many of you think this would change the dynamic of the game. That suddenly there would be a huge divide between people who buy all their gear, and people who don't. And all the people who buy virtual assests would leave the rest of us in the dust.

I mean, this is and always has been the case. Why do you think the secondary market is a multimillion dollar buisness. Because there are people who play L2 that are willing to shell out real life cash to be super 1337. And it doesnt matter where the adena is comming from.

You guys act like that EULA is holding back this flood of people that are willing to buy adena. I dont think thats the case. If NC started to sell adena, I would be willing to bet that most of the people that use the service will be people who were buying it before anyway.

I think there are people who are willing to spend real cash for fake items, and these people will do so weither it is against the EULA or not, and no matter where it comes from. And people who are playing for fun, and not to flush money down the E-toilet.

The only problem I would have is that NCsoft selling virtual assests might tempt people who don't usually even consider buying adena, to fork over a few bucks for the hell of it. Thats the only real issue, is it might become a habit for a new set of people. It might become to accepted.

[Z0idberg]

What if it was possible to buy base mats? I reckon that would be pretty cool.

[BlazerX]

NO it would NOT be very cool. NO real money for items in game is cool ok? Get it through your thick head. Again, there are games out there that does it already. Why do you even want this? Go play THOSE games. I for one being a LEGIT player would quit the minute they started to do this crap. I mean what the hell is the point of competing against people who buy with their real cash? Might as well just tell all the rich kids, hey I'll pimp this game for your cash. Sounds sort of like one of those street walker kind of deals if you know what I mean.

Also, look at SOE's EverQuest as an example. That game went to [censored] overnight when they did ingame items for real cash. Now their back peddaling like crazy to get out of their little booboo aren't they?

[Schmusekatze]

[ QUOTE ]
What if it was possible to buy base mats? I reckon that would be pretty cool.

[/ QUOTE ]
Were you hacked by TimeCop ?

Cause your idea basically sounds like "Get rid of all Bounty Hunters".

Eyerolling Kitten

[Medina1]

I have thought some more about this issue. I think the best way to test this idea is with a new server where it explicitly states that items can be bought direct from the company. Then compare statistics and populations versus the other servers. Starting a new server is expensive but it's even more expensive to change the current model and perhaps ruin it. However the opportunity for increased profits should not be ignored. Maybe Lineage3 will have a few servers where items can be purchased. While the focus has been on paying for ingame items the real underlying issue is population dynamics.

This raises a rather interesting question. What happens if all those willing to buy items go to servers where you can do this? This will decrease the demand on the other servers as a result the farmers may move to a more profitable game? We can only guess but even a right guess today will be wrong tomorrow and vice versa. For now I think the answer lies with having servers set aside with the ability to buy ingame assets from the company and other servers where you grind it out.

[Caleria]

The L2 of today doesnt support ingame asset sales by the company.

The farmers have to earn their goods by hunting within the game... that means that they produce the same range of drops a normal player would produce.

If you would sell adena generated by the company material prices would skyrocket. Farmers would farm for mats (as they are now) and be able to undercut NC in notime.

They could place the material seller cats in towns, but this would not only remove the class of the bounty hunter from the game, it would also destroy the market system as we know it at the moment. All materials and thus all items (ALL of them) will have a completely fixed value. absolutely no way for players who are not willing to buy with RL cash make any big money at all. Because it would be either buy the adena for your gear or farm ALL the mats with your bounty hunter, which is already impossible now. Means all players who want to earn their gear ingame will be forced to quit.

So... why not have NPC that sell complete gear... or sell gear via website... just look at what would happen... with top gear and top level there is only PvP left to do... which is rather boring and will probably make the losers quit after a very short while... as well as all non-pvp players of L2. No grinding, no trading... only drama and ganking all day long... no thank you.

So even those who bought their ingame euipment think a while and say to themselves... after 2 months this crap got rather boring... but I spent all that RL money on my leet toon and gear... guess I'll have to sell it on ebay to make a bit of money back...

Conclusion:
Hunting will be removed from the game.
Trading will be removed from the game.
All dwarves will quit (no reason for them to be ingame besides WS @ sieges... but that would be really boring)
All legit players of today will first: either quit right away because this game is no challenge anymore or turn to secondary market participants by undercutting L2 on ebay when they have seen every remaining aspect of the game within the time of two months or so.

So where exactly are the upsides of company-controlled secondary market? They could as well transform this game into counterstrike then.

Cal

[SPS]

[ QUOTE ]
No grinding, no trading... only drama and ganking all day long... no thank you.


[/ QUOTE ]
Err, it may not be for you, but thats my idea of ingame heaven. Grinding = boring. Trading = boring. PvP = fun.

[Caleria]

Good for you... good for me... but why should the parts that I find fun be taken out of the game?

Cal

[LemonOP]

No.

Issues with farmers aside (for now :)), I don't think this fits with the spirit of the game; SO many players would be seriously disappointed if this were implemented. And I think it's worth mentioning again that the BH would eventually become completely useless. It would not rid the game of farmers. I firmly believe the only way to get rid of farmers is for people to stop buying adena. If there is no demand...there is no reason for them to be here. Of course, that will NEVER happen. There will always be someone that wants instant gratification and fails to grasp the spirit of the game. What's worse is it seems this mentality is not only spreading in-game...but being accepted...even embraced. Which further contributes to the growing population of "non-desirables".

It may seem unfair to say the responsibility to rid the game of farmer's lies partly in the players' hands...but...honestly whatever actions NCSoft is taking just don't seem to be cutting it. Sure, things would be a lot worse if they did nothing...but the current situation is still bad. I'm not saying to dedicate every minute of your time in game to harrassing farmers and making it painfully obvious to them that they are not welcome and will not be allowed to run rampant, (Although that does have a nice ring to it, don't ya think? ;) ) but to sit by and do nothing? :eek:

Before I ramble on any longer I'll try to shorten my opinion:

- No, in-game assets should not be sold by NCSoft.
- Stop buying adena.
- Stop accepting those that do.
- Stop turning a "blind eye" to bots and farmers!

I'm tired of hearing:
"I don't mind the bots, they don't interfere with my leveling really". They do, and if they don't bother you directly, the farmers that are running them affect this game in a hugely negative way. If you haven't noticed it yet, you aren't paying attention.
"I don't mind e-bayers, people cheating doesn't affect me." It does. It affects everyone. If you are buying your way through the game you are the reason farmers are plagueing the game. It is all your fault. Good job being an impatient greedy little jerk. :D

I'm glad people are discussing ways to improve the current situation, I just don't think this is the right direction to go.

[OrcZilla]

I think that it's a problem that the players are even considering this question in the first place - that is, the proliferation and continued sucess of the secondary market is a testament to the game design's faults in terms of item production/procurement across all regional barriers.

It's obvious (especially for the NA market) that a substantial proportion of players on each server bots and/or buys in-game items for real money. The continued existence such large pro-farmer populations and botting program companies further bolster the argument that business for them hasn't been deterred enough by NCSoft efforts, but rather very profitably employed by the game's user base.

While we can argue day and night about what to do about these problems, but the reason for the secondary market's existance and the use of botting programs can largely be agreed-upon to be simply because the game design makes for a very difficult climb to achieve anything of value for a very large proportion of its players. Simply put, this game was not created with the audience it's intended for in mind, or the game's creators misinterpreted the audience's desires.

Of course, while some may say they love the how hard it is to get S-grade whatever and how hard it is to level up and how they like getting beaten with reeds while playing, once again we must be reminded how much the secondary market and botting programs are being used on a day-to-day basis with really no end in sight; that is, if there weren't such a large number of players who support the secondary market and botting program companies, they wouldn't be so prevalent in the game world as they are now.

While I personally don't believe that the majority of players employ the use of the secondary market and/or botting programs, a large enough proportion of the game's user base does. It indicates that the game design didn't properly anticipate the interests (or, should I say, tolerances) of much, much more than a small portion of the audience.

And the game creators are still refusing to adapt their design policies on more than a piecemeal basis, even in the face of a sharply-declining user base in their home terrirory that has been attributed to the apparent need for players to utilize the secondary market and botting programs to even compete.

What are their answers to these problems that we're constantly posting about? Usually, "We're looking into it," which we are all well-enough versed to read as "If you're very, very lucky, there will be a fix," and that's usually only limited to the most technical of issues.

While a lot of players, particularly the ones who enjoy being beaten by reeds while playing, will likely hate this answer, there hasn't been an answer that has produced results nearly as successful as this: Make the game easier.

I'm not speaking on terms of the entirety of the game, but at least some of the more economic ones that simply make sense.

For instance, how about an Auction House? While this may already be a moot point, considering that the game's creator has already nixed the proposal in an interview for reasons that are completely beyond stupid, I believe that this idea could be one of the more effective methods towards reducing a lot of problems that we're having.

An Auction House system would lower prices across the board, as sellers would have to compete more directly with others to get their goods sold because of the elimination of the "shroud" effect that's produced by the sea of buy/sell/craft shops everywhere and the locations of shop clusters (for instance, if you're in Giran and someone's in Gludio selling something that you need, not only would you have to know about the shop's existance, but you'd also have to factor in porting fees).

This would have the added effect of reducing the prices pro-farmers can sell their goods, as the Auction House would probably have to employ the use of a deposit fee, to prevent abusers from puting up an auction and rescinding it if it doesn't get a high-enough bid by the end of the auction. If the farmers want to sell their Elysians for 80 million, they'll have to put up the deposit fee to do so, and keep on having to pay the deposit fee everytime it doesn't sell. Eventually, if they keep trying to sell at that price, they'll have spent more than the 80 mil, or be forced to raise their prices to compensate, further decreasing the chance that the Elysian will sell.

But, then there will be those who are able to spend as much as their credit card limits will allow. My answer to this is: Make the recipe quests easier.

Probably the main reason why A-grade boots, gloves, and especially helmets are still very pricey is because the quests to get these recipes is so random in its rewards on top of the odds of failing the craft. We put a lot of work getting these quest items in the first place. It's more than disheartening when all that work goes down the drain because you get a boot part or the craft fails, leaving you only the options of violating the EULA or starting the long, arduous process all over from scratch.

Easing the difficulty of obtaining the quest items needed, allowing us the ability to get the desired recipes once the quest items are obtained, increasing the success rate of the crafts, or any combination of the above would go far in deterring the need for the secondary market/bot programs.

I'm sick right now, so I might continue this later.

[Freakazoid]

[ QUOTE ]

While we can argue day and night about what to do about these problems, but the reason for the secondary market's existance and the use of botting programs can largely be agreed-upon to be simply because the game design makes for a very difficult climb to achieve anything of value for a very large proportion of its players. Simply put, this game was not created with the audience it's intended for in mind, or the game's creators misinterpreted the audience's desires.


[/ QUOTE ]
I do not agree that what you've stated are the main reasons for the problems we see. Unless you remove every sort of achievement possible and remove everything that requires 'grinding' you're not able to remove the secondary market. Mmorpgs are time sinks by design and the secondary market is a service that allows to 'play at the next level'. There will be always lots of ppl willing to take a shortcut because maximizing efficiency is in a sense human nature. On this same line are rules, regulations and punishment. Humans stick to rules if they believe that not doing so will result in punishment, as it stands now though NCSofts authority is a joke. There used to be battles between farmer and real players, there are other games out on the market where no sane player would want to get his name connected to bots or secondary market. As L2 is today there are 'normal' players and player groups that openly support any sort of illegal activity. Combined with the fact that only 2 of 9 servers use this forum here tells you alot about how little control and influence NCSoft has with its community. It really doesn't matter how hard the grind is as long as anybody can play on an even playground. NCSoft can not provide this, so more and more player are proving the even playground themself and nothing will fix this game and its community unless NCSoft radically changes its policies.

If NCSoft would provide an official possiblity to buy virtual cash it wouldn't change much for the player base. I honestly doubt a noticeable amount of player would quit, if you kept playing up to now you're hardly sensitive to anybody else buying up his status. It would only formalize what is going on now anyways. The biggest problem would be inflation, but then and as already pointed out, farmers may simply undercut official prices and nothing would change at all.

[BlazerX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If NCSoft would provide an official possiblity to buy virtual cash it wouldn't change much for the player base. I honestly doubt a noticeable amount of player would quit, if you kept playing up to now you're hardly sensitive to anybody else buying up his status. It would only formalize what is going on now anyways. The biggest problem would be inflation, but then and as already pointed out, farmers may simply undercut official prices and nothing would change at all.

[/ QUOTE ]


lol this must be the biggest joke quote of the day. Lot of people not quit if NCSOFT allows ingame buying of items via real cash? Are you serious? Don't second guess the majority of the player base. They are *not* cheaters but people who play for fun and enjoyment based on the current rules. If NCSOFT goes and changes the basic concept of the rules of this game by introducing real life cash for game items, hmm lets see, remember Star Wars Galaxies? That game is virtually dead. Look at EverQuest? That game is virtually dead as well. Star Wars Galaxies didn't allow the real life money for virtual items, but I use it as an example here because the developers changed the way that game was played and that caused the massive migration out of it. Seriously, do you think that if NCSOFT allows buying of virtual items via real life cash would not have any or little impact? Anyone who thinks this is delusional.

I'm sure NCSOFT has a marketting or research division that has already looked into this. Hell, if this was so profitable, why do you think WOW isn't doing it? In fact they are adamantly against it (thats the only thing I respect in that game). There is a reason why the 2 biggest MMORPGs are not doing this.

Again, for you people who want this kind of stuff, go play the games that allow this legally already and find out why their game population is so **** low and shut the hell up already about this topic. Its not going to happen and its utterly stupid that anyone would want it to happen to a game that is just fine as it is now.

[Freakazoid]

Yes, i believe it wouldn't change a thing. Are you telling me you're playing this game because it has such a hardcore grind which everybody has to take on? Wake up, buying virtual cash is nothing rare nor spectactular in this game. It has been here for 2 years, you're encountering for 2 years bots in every dungeon and you're telling me you have an issue with people buying adena in this game? What do you think is happening with all that Gold farmed? Do you hope that after this problem has persisted so long its going to disappear? Face it, people buying up their status _is_ already a part of Lineage2, the unwillingness or lack of ability from NCSofts side has formed this game this way long time ago. Even if NCSoft officially sells Adena or legalizes trades in a different way there still will be enough people around who don't want to waste (more) money for a 'game'.
Really great examples... SWG died because they totally changed their whole class system, this is in no way comparable to what we discuss here. Given that EQ is now in its second incarnation and that i've never cared for it i have hardly any info about why ppl quit there, but i've yet to hear its because of their money exchange system. I think i already adressed a good part about 'changed the way that game was played' above, as a matter of fact this game is and can be played already this way. And nobody suggested that Adena stops dropping and everybody has to buy his gear via RL cash, i have no idea were you pulled out the illusion of a change in gameplay.

I'll give you some better example: Ultima Online, they allow virtual money trade and they even had a time were you could buy some pre'leveled' (in UO sense) characters. I don't recall that had any inpact on their subscriber numbers. Eve Online allows to sell GameTimeCards for Ingame Money, hasn't hurt the game as well. Lineage2 is by far the most bot and secondary market infested game i've seen(largest community site bought by adena farmer inc). If you have a problem with other people getting something for RL cash you're playing the wrong game.

And to stress one thing out: i haven't bought any virtual cash nor do i have any interest in doing so. WoW has alot of reasons because it is successful and one of those is for sure that they do not hestitate to ban users that do not stick to the rules.

[EcronyteIDC]

[ QUOTE ]
I for one being a LEGIT player would quit the minute they started to do this crap. I mean what the hell is the point of competing against people who buy with their real cash?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well man I guess you better quit right now. Was nice knowing you. Because YOU ARE COMPETING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO BUY ADENA already.


OrcKilla, I think you made some good points. I don't think we will ever see an auction house. If for no other reason than the fact that it would dramaticly change a staple of the game. I do however think they need to make the market more user friendly.

of course no one wants the market to be user friendly because they want to make money off how un-user friendly it is.

But as far as game/market difficulty goes. I love to work for what I have. I like that it isnt a piece of cake to get everything I want. But A grade is a great example of when a game thats supposed to be fun, turns into hard and unreasonable work, and risk.

And when it takes months to farm parts and recipes for a 60% craft. I think you make an environment that is ripe for cheating, especially between more competitive players. And because these players are willing to do what it takes to advance their character to keep up with others. The prices for items like A helms is far far out of reach of a legit player. So its quest for months and months and months, or buy adena and have it all the same day.

I thik Ill be in my doom for quite a while ; )

[aZZmodan]

Before I start, let me send regards to OrcZilla... Very nicely put my friend.

And secondly, I am fully aware that I'm probably gonna get flammed for this... but what the heck :eek:

It seems that the problem lies with the game design after all... I'm afraid that whatever else we say about will just be moot.

Making the game bot-gree can't actually be that hard... Maybe we should, just for a moment, think outside the box here.

Now, let me take a swing at that...

Firstly, what is the main reason that makes people buy in-game assets for RL money? The fact that this game is hard... Buing what it will probably take you 3 months to get in just 10 minutes for RL money is just... well.. easier. Now, the fact that this game is hard (in the wrong places some will say... and they may just be right, I'm not going to come into that) cannot be changed. It's part of the reason people play it in the first time. Therefore, some people think that "why should I bust my a*s trying to gather together 1000 types of different stuff so that I can TRY to craft something, when I can just get the Adena I need for RL cash and just buy the equipment I need from someone in the next 20 minutes?".

Really, taken that into acount, the answer just jumps out of the bushes and bites us in the a*s. It seems so simple that someone would have been able to figure it out by now, right?

Now, bear with me a little here, OK?

Now, let's say I need a brand new B Grade armor.. I just turned 52 and I absolutely gotta have a Heavy Doom Set... I am part of an active clan, we can gather around and do it, no sweat... but gathering the mats and then crafting it would be, well, slow... Ohh, I know! Why don't I just Alt-Tab, open up my browser, get online and just get 10 million Adena in 20 minutes so that I can buy my set from a random shop somewhere in the world of Aden? Seems fairly simple, right?

Now, imagine (for a minute, just a minute) that I can't! I cannot do what I just described! Why? Certainly not because there are suddenly no more botters or lazy lame n00b players out there! I cannot, for the life of me do that because... crafted-only items cannot be traded for anything! Crafted-only items cannot be traded at all! They cannot be put for sale in ordinary shops! They can only be traded between characters that are in the same clan at the time! WOW! I cannot buy it anymore! OMG! Now, the only way I'm ever gonna get that Heavy Doom Set is either by gathering all the mats and getting a dwarf clanmate to craft it, or... I can get a COMPLETE STRANGER to join my clan so that I can buy it from him! What am I ever going to do? Everyone else is on their way to gathering raw mats... I better get on with it myself!

But it doesn't stop there, no... What if I wanted to, lets say, buy 10 million Adena off some website just to finally be able to afford to lvl that SWS I allways dreamed of playing? I could just go out, order the Adena, and have a bot agent deliver the money in-game in just under 20 minutes, right? Well... wrong again! Why? Because I just realised that... I cannot make transfers larger then 3 million Adena between a character and any other character per week, unless that character (and all other ones of-course) are in the in the same clan at the time! OMG! Now, I either have to wait a minumum of 3-4 weeks to get my money, or... I can get a COMPLETE STRANGER to join my clan so that I can get it! Bummer, isn't it?

Well, the above are just stuff that really came on my mind after my second 6-pack for the night... So, feel free to launch them right back at me.. No offence taken :D

[Splatter]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that the problem lies with the game design after all... I'm afraid that whatever else we say about will just be moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem doesn't lie with the game, but with the players. If you had a class of player with enough morals to say that spending RL money for ingame money is a bad thing. We wouldn't have the problems we have today.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that the problem lies with the game design after all... I'm afraid that whatever else we say about will just be moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem doesn't lie with the game, but with the players. If you had a class of player with enough morals to say that spending RL money for ingame money is a bad thing. We wouldn't have the problems we have today.

[/ QUOTE ]

True... Very true... But, unfortunately, it seems that morale is not something we can count upon... so what does this leaves us with? A way to "shield" the game from these people, right?

[Belophan]

making a Auction House(AH) will push the prices down...

make mobs drop more money and give parties a better xp and money bonus

the low droprate on money is the reason why so many ppl buy adena
this game is more based on gear than on skills

[Splatter]

[ QUOTE ]
True... Very true... But, unfortunately, it seems that morale is not something we can count upon... so what does this leaves us with? A way to "shield" the game from these people, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

What they need to do is to send a hard message to the playerbase "You buy, your banned"

The focus currently is on the seller lets shift it to the buyer. Let's even put all the high castle owning clans under the microscope.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True... Very true... But, unfortunately, it seems that morale is not something we can count upon... so what does this leaves us with? A way to "shield" the game from these people, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

What they need to do is to send a hard message to the playerbase "You buy, your banned"

The focus currently is on the seller lets shift it to the buyer. Let's even put all the high castle owning clans under the microscope.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a valid point there, true... But I just can't see why this hasen't been done yet. Seems fairly simple, doesn't it? But, is anyone over at NCsoft really looking over the database? What went where, from who and when? My previous post (you know, the long one :) -on which I would really like to hear you comments) is about things that need to change in order for it to work... What you just suggested is plain simple. Why hasn't it been done yet? Is it maybe because simply, farmers will go obsolete? Which means less money for NCsoft?

[Belophan]

because they are scared of loosing customers..

and they cant prove that u did buy the money for RL cash...

u ban 1 player and its a high chance it will make a chain reaction... in a bad way for NC

[Splatter]

Because the simple things some times are the hardest to prove.

Seeing someone getting a few million from a transfer isn't a sign of guilt. They need to do an investigation and prove they are guilty. It's easy to say...Months long to do.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
because they are scared of loosing customers..

and they cant prove that u did buy the money for RL cash...

u ban 1 player and its a high chance it will make a chain reaction... in a bad way for NC

[/ QUOTE ]

But they CAN prove it! They can prove it in a way that matters to them, that is. Thay don't have to explain themselves to anyone. They are the masters of their own game. What they say happened, happened. Right?

[OrcZilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I do not agree that what you've stated are the main reasons for the problems we see. Unless you remove every sort of achievement possible and remove everything that requires 'grinding' you're not able to remove the secondary market. Mmorpgs are time sinks by design and the secondary market is a service that allows to 'play at the next level'. There will be always lots of ppl willing to take a shortcut because maximizing efficiency is in a sense human nature. On this same line are rules, regulations and punishment. Humans stick to rules if they believe that not doing so will result in punishment, as it stands now though NCSofts authority is a joke. There used to be battles between farmer and real players, there are other games out on the market where no sane player would want to get his name connected to bots or secondary market. As L2 is today there are 'normal' players and player groups that openly support any sort of illegal activity. Combined with the fact that only 2 of 9 servers use this forum here tells you alot about how little control and influence NCSoft has with its community. It really doesn't matter how hard the grind is as long as anybody can play on an even playground. NCSoft can not provide this, so more and more player are proving the even playground themself and nothing will fix this game and its community unless NCSoft radically changes its policies.

If NCSoft would provide an official possiblity to buy virtual cash it wouldn't change much for the player base. I honestly doubt a noticeable amount of player would quit, if you kept playing up to now you're hardly sensitive to anybody else buying up his status. It would only formalize what is going on now anyways. The biggest problem would be inflation, but then and as already pointed out, farmers may simply undercut official prices and nothing would change at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I never said that the secondary market or botting could ever completely be removed from the game. What I was suggesting were means towards lowering the prevalence of secondary market and bot usage.

It's not the lack of law enforcement that makes people break laws; if that were the case, there would never be any murders, robberies, and countless other crimes that are punished regularly in any civilized society. In the broader sense, what makes people break laws could be a myriad of reasons, including emotional state, mental condition, and desperation. Simply put, people will still break laws even if it will result in punishment.

In the case of L2, what we're dealing with is a kind of desperation - this game has been designed to be very competitive, with major game aspects meant to attract multiple parties at a time, leading to confrontation and eventually open conflict. Gear and levels are at the center of what makes you and those you associate with (your clan/alliance) successful or unsucessful against other groups of players.

Thus, a kind of desperation forms in some people where they must have the gear and levels to effectively compete against their opponents.

The problem is, the will and determination that accompanies the desperation doesn't always manifest itself into dedication through time and effort, but rather dedication through how much that person is willing to spend in real life money (those who don't have the will and determination to get the gear/levels through either means (again, time and effort or the secondary market/botting) usually end up leaving the game for something easier).

Using the A-grade helm/boots/gloves recipe quest as an example, if A-grade helm/boots/gloves recipes were easily obtained, for instance, taking maybe an hour's worth of work to finish the quest, at which time you can choose which recipe you want to get and you'll definitely get that recipe, rather than how the quest currently works, how many people do you think would actually use the secondary market to buy enough money to buy these recipes, rather than doing the quest themselves?

Though I'm sure there would still be some people who would still use the secondary market so they can buy these recipes, it'd definitely be a lot less people than those who are currently employing the secondary market for those purposes now, right?

Now, how about making it so that levelling to 78 took maybe a day's work, at most? Would botting for the purpose of levelling be nearly as common as it is now?

Now, I'm not saying that we should reduce the game's difficulty to those levels, but this goes to show how, despite the apparent inability for NCSoft to enforce their laws very effectively, most people would choose to err on the "safe side" if peoples' desperation for gear/levels were alleviated somewhat.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
Because the simple things some times are the hardest to prove.

Seeing someone getting a few million from a transfer isn't a sign of guilt. They need to do an investigation and prove they are guilty. It's easy to say...Months long to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's where my previous post fits right in my friend (about the restrictions in transfering I mean). Anyway, I can't imagine branding farmers IDs can really be that hard now, can it?

[Belophan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because they are scared of loosing customers..

and they cant prove that u did buy the money for RL cash...

u ban 1 player and its a high chance it will make a chain reaction... in a bad way for NC

[/ QUOTE ]

But they CAN prove it! They can prove it in a way that matters to them, that is. Thay don't have to explain themselves to anyone. They are the masters of their own game. What they say happened, happened. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

that way they would loose many customers...

and in US they prolly would get sued by the rich ppl..

[Pobednik]

its not only long, but resource consuming too. ncsoft austin can not allocate 80% of their budget to chase the pro-adenainc community (all from botters to buyers).
anyways GMs are less interested in a one party of bots, but they like to see how does that party intervenes: who gathers the money, where does it go and so on, only to ban the whole gang and pimps alltogether. that part is investigation and takes loooong time to do.
actually GMs are doing their job as best they can, and must follow the rules of employment, which, much of the time, isnt in the best interest of the rule-following customer all the time.
as for selling the ingame assets, idea is good, but the risk to get sued by a class-action suit of disgruntled customers and allready banned players is daunting. and who mayspend the money on the lawyers? well same players that have spent hundreds of dollars for their innacessible items in the game.

all in all hunt massively the buyers, ban them, or simply warning suspects with ban might encourage those players not to buy online adena.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I do not agree that what you've stated are the main reasons for the problems we see. Unless you remove every sort of achievement possible and remove everything that requires 'grinding' you're not able to remove the secondary market. Mmorpgs are time sinks by design and the secondary market is a service that allows to 'play at the next level'. There will be always lots of ppl willing to take a shortcut because maximizing efficiency is in a sense human nature. On this same line are rules, regulations and punishment. Humans stick to rules if they believe that not doing so will result in punishment, as it stands now though NCSofts authority is a joke. There used to be battles between farmer and real players, there are other games out on the market where no sane player would want to get his name connected to bots or secondary market. As L2 is today there are 'normal' players and player groups that openly support any sort of illegal activity. Combined with the fact that only 2 of 9 servers use this forum here tells you alot about how little control and influence NCSoft has with its community. It really doesn't matter how hard the grind is as long as anybody can play on an even playground. NCSoft can not provide this, so more and more player are proving the even playground themself and nothing will fix this game and its community unless NCSoft radically changes its policies.

If NCSoft would provide an official possiblity to buy virtual cash it wouldn't change much for the player base. I honestly doubt a noticeable amount of player would quit, if you kept playing up to now you're hardly sensitive to anybody else buying up his status. It would only formalize what is going on now anyways. The biggest problem would be inflation, but then and as already pointed out, farmers may simply undercut official prices and nothing would change at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I never said that the secondary market or botting could ever completely be removed from the game. What I was suggesting were means towards lowering the prevalence of secondary market and bot usage.

It's not the lack of law enforcement that makes people break laws; if that were the case, there would never be any murders, robberies, and countless other crimes that are punished regularly in any civilized society. In the broader sense, what makes people break laws could be a myriad of reasons, including emotional state, mental condition, and desperation. Simply put, people will still break laws even if it will result in punishment.

In the case of L2, what we're dealing with is a kind of desperation - this game has been designed to be very competitive, with major game aspects meant to attract multiple parties at a time, leading to confrontation and eventually open conflict. Gear and levels are at the center of what makes you and those you associate with (your clan/alliance) successful or unsucessful against other groups of players.

Thus, a kind of desperation forms in some people where they must have the gear and levels to effectively compete against their opponents.

The problem is, the will and determination that accompanies the desperation doesn't always manifest itself into dedication through time and effort, but rather dedication through how much that person is willing to spend in real life money (those who don't have the will and determination to get the gear/levels through either means (again, time and effort or the secondary market/botting) usually end up leaving the game for something easier).

Using the A-grade helm/boots/gloves recipe quest as an example, if A-grade helm/boots/gloves recipes were easily obtained, for instance, taking maybe an hour's worth of work to finish the quest, at which time you can choose which recipe you want to get and you'll definitely get that recipe, rather than how the quest currently works, how many people do you think would actually use the secondary market to buy enough money to buy these recipes, rather than doing the quest themselves?

Though I'm sure there would still be some people who would still use the secondary market so they can buy these recipes, it'd definitely be a lot less people than those who are currently employing the secondary market for those purposes now, right?

Now, how about making it so that levelling to 78 took maybe a day's work, at most? Would botting for the purpose of levelling be nearly as common as it is now?

Now, I'm not saying that we should reduce the game's difficulty to those levels, but this goes to show how, despite the apparent inability for NCSoft to enforce their laws very effectively, most people would choose to err on the "safe side" if peoples' desperation for gear/levels were alleviated somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a neverending circle really... NCSoft must want (and always will) for the game to be as hard and time consuming as it can be... It means that people like us will play it for longer periods of time. The right question, as far as I'm concerned, would probably be: What is the golden point, the point on which the game seizes to be fun for the majority of players... and just becomes an everending grindfest (with all the implications that come with it)?

[Agnus_Dei]

Perhaps NCSoft could limit the number of times per day a character can trade adena. It could be monitored the same way they monitor recomendations.
How often do you trade adena between characters in a day?

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]

How often do you trade adena between characters in a day?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes a lot. Have you never gone to a starter village and given adena away? I guess that should be "illegal"? :eek:

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because they are scared of loosing customers..

and they cant prove that u did buy the money for RL cash...

u ban 1 player and its a high chance it will make a chain reaction... in a bad way for NC

[/ QUOTE ]

But they CAN prove it! They can prove it in a way that matters to them, that is. Thay don't have to explain themselves to anyone. They are the masters of their own game. What they say happened, happened. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

that way they would loose many customers...

and in US they prolly would get sued by the rich ppl..

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're probably right... They will probably lose many paying customers... The thing is that, my (our) prime interest should not be weather NCSoft loses 10-20 % of their player base (which, if they are caught cheating, are not -by my standards and by what NCSoft states in it's terms of agreement- considered player base anyway), but in making the game what it states to being in the first place... A game maintaned by players and played by players.

[Splatter]

I've taken your whole post and compressed it into my view...

This game is Lineage2 with 12 Chronicles "expansions" with one chronicle a year your looking at a 12 year time sink. Even if you did two chronicles a year your still looking at a 6 year time sink.

/Takes a deep breath

If you want an easy cakewalk game there is always wow... This game was designed from the ground up to be a big time sink. They "NCSoft" wants you around for a very long time.

As such i see no need to grind my brains into dust with the goal of "I must get my S grade in a week of playing"

My goal is the slow and steady grind to make something of myself in this game. Be it the lonely orc that reached lvl 76 solo after 12 years of playing, or the dwarf that sticks to the crafting of low grade ores.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps NCSoft could limit the number of times per day a character can trade adena. It could be monitored the same way they monitor recomendations.
How often do you trade adena between characters in a day?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to continue on this in regard to my previous post about "limitations that could probably work in geeting rid of low-life botters" saying that: Imagine, having a restriction saying that the same character cannot give away in trades more than, say, 3 million Adena per week (that's a week in real time). So, farmers have to make many many more acounts to get their goods delivered... More money for NCsoft, prices for in-game stuff go up because of farmer companies spending more money on acounts... It won't be a month before virtually everyone but the wealthier out there stop buying Adena with RL cash... Problem solved!

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
I've taken your whole post and compressed it into my view...

This game is Lineage2 with 12 Chronicles "expansions" with one chronicle a year your looking at a 12 year time sink. Even if you did two chronicles a year your still looking at a 6 year time sink.

/Takes a deep breath

If you want an easy cakewalk game there is always wow... This game was designed from the ground up to be a big time sink. They "NCSoft" wants you around for a very long time.

As such i see no need to grind my brains into dust with the goal of "I must get my S grade in a week of playing"

My goal is the slow and steady grind to make something of myself in this game. Be it the lonely orc that reached lvl 76 solo after 12 years of playing, or the dwarf that sticks to the crafting of low grade ores.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, who's post is that you're talking about?
And secondly... I really would like to listen to your views on my suggestions (really low-life and beer-ridden as they may be) and have your insight on the matter :)

P.S. By the way... you're totally right.

[Belophan]

WoW is as much timesink as L2 is..

the only diff is that its a tiny bit faster to lvl in WoW, mainly because of many quests

u can get to 60 as fast or faster in L2 than in WoW, if ur a nuker/archer in L2..

u CANT buy top-end gear in WoW, u have to join big clans and farm it..

PvPing alot gives u benefits... something i heard L2 will get soon too..

the main problem with L2 is that all items are sell able..

items dropped by RBs should be bound to the clan who is ally leader.. so only the current clans who are in the ally can use the gear..
would remove 90% of the RB farmers since they kill them to resell the items to get RL cash

[Freakazoid]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I never said that the secondary market or botting could ever completely be removed from the game. What I was suggesting were means towards lowering the prevalence of secondary market and bot usage.


[/ QUOTE ]
It is the very core of this game to grind, but even with low(er) grinding you have more then enough people interested in it. Even games with a low amount of grind face the problems of farmers and botters, it is not the fact that some people less buy virtual money that keeps them at bay, its the ability to remove 'em from the game.

[ QUOTE ]

It's not the lack of law enforcement that makes people break laws; if that were the case, there would never be any murders, robberies, and countless other crimes that are punished regularly in any civilized society. In the broader sense, what makes people break laws could be a myriad of reasons, including emotional state, mental condition, and desperation. Simply put, people will still break laws even if it will result in punishment.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah right.. and next you're telling me that security standards in Nigeria and Western Europa are the same. The lack of authority and potential punishment is what makes every system go down the drain. Some cases will happen, but it will be a _lot_ less.

[..]
[ QUOTE ]

Now, I'm not saying that we should reduce the game's difficulty to those levels, but this goes to show how, despite the apparent inability for NCSoft to enforce their laws very effectively, most people would choose to err on the "safe side" if peoples' desperation for gear/levels were alleviated somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well i guess we get somewhat closer to it, however doubling drop rates wont help much. Unless you make a _huge_ change hardly a noticeable amount of bots will go away. Lots of people are botting on high rate private servers. Lineage2 is by design a highly repetitive game which main purpose is leveling and getting your gear together. In a risk-reward consideration you'll have here 2 variables. You could lower the 'reward' with making drops more common etc. but this would have to be so fundamental it would basicly mean to change the game. Or you could increase the risk if NCSoft would do their **** job. I'm pretty sure we'll see neither though.

[Freakazoid]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to continue on this in regard to my previous post about "limitations that could probably work in geeting rid of low-life botters" saying that: Imagine, having a restriction saying that the same character cannot give away in trades more than, say, 3 million Adena per week (that's a week in real time).

[/ QUOTE ]
Your suggestion is useless. I don't know if that is standard procedure but i've seen farmer buying a single arrow for 150m. And even if you would limited the max/min prices, as long as you can trade and make a margin you can transfer money.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to continue on this in regard to my previous post about "limitations that could probably work in geeting rid of low-life botters" saying that: Imagine, having a restriction saying that the same character cannot give away in trades more than, say, 3 million Adena per week (that's a week in real time).

[/ QUOTE ]
Your suggestion is useless. I don't know if that is standard procedure but i've seen farmer buying a single arrow for 150m. And even if you would limited the max/min prices, as long as you can trade and make a margin you can transfer money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, I never thought of that. I stand corrected.
But what about my other suggestions? Have you read my reply in page 3 of this post? Go through that... maybe you can find something I can be corrected in... By all means :D

[Splatter]

By the way, just to give you a heads up. Come monday the Mods will be nuking this whole thread.

[Splatter]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, who's post is that you're talking about?
And secondly... I really would like to listen to your views on my suggestions (really low-life and beer-ridden as they may be) and have your insight on the matter

[/ QUOTE ]

I maybe not the best to talk about game play, as others have told me. I level to slowly....And i need to leave my starter town. :)

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just to give you a heads up. Come monday the Mods will be nuking this whole thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

As this happens to be my first day in these boards, please define "nuking".

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, who's post is that you're talking about?
And secondly... I really would like to listen to your views on my suggestions (really low-life and beer-ridden as they may be) and have your insight on the matter

[/ QUOTE ]

I maybe not the best to talk about game play, as others have told me. I level to slowly....And i need to leave my starter town. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Llving slowly is the way to go... :)

[Splatter]

[ QUOTE ]
As this happens to be my first day in these boards, please define "nuking".

[/ QUOTE ]

We have touched one some issues that are against the board rules (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=493019&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#493019), plus we are just heading in circles now.

Come monday morning when Mistryl gets in there is a good 99.8% chance this thread will be locked.

[Darkmotion]

Greetings,

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just to give you a heads up. Come monday the Mods will be nuking this whole thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

As this happens to be my first day in these boards, please define "nuking".

[/ QUOTE ]

By nuking, the Orc means the moderators will probably lock or remove the thread, because the discussion has gotten a bit out of hand...

On the other hand, the Angels love to spy on the Devil... And likewise.

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil

[/ QUOTE ]

[Splatter]

[ QUOTE ]


Llving slowly is the way to go... :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been playing for over 1 1/2 years and the highest level character i got is 25.

[Belophan]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just to give you a heads up. Come monday the Mods will be nuking this whole thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

better make many posts here then :p

[Belophan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Llving slowly is the way to go... :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been playing for over 1 1/2 years and the highest level character i got is 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

hard to believe..

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
Greetings,

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, just to give you a heads up. Come monday the Mods will be nuking this whole thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

As this happens to be my first day in these boards, please define "nuking".

[/ QUOTE ]

By nuking, the Orc means the moderators will probably lock or remove the thread, because the discussion has gotten a bit out of hand...

On the other hand, the Angels love to spy on the Devil... And likewise.

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of hand? Like... we're touching things that we should not have touched?

[Pobednik]

come monday, if mods wont lock or delete this thread, about 80% of the posters will be gone, with some 10% of posters receiving temporal ban. Sorry for this outbusrt, but this server here is USA based, not korea based yes?
then how come the censorship is bigger on these boards then ... oh crap i'll just say it: GLUPI PANDURI NADJITE VREME DA RADITE VAS POSAO, I DA SKLONITE KINEZE I ZUTE AZIJANCE ODAVDE. KER IM MATER JEBO. SIPU RACKU PROKLETI CUVARU.
yes, feeling better . . . he he he.

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Llving slowly is the way to go... :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been playing for over 1 1/2 years and the highest level character i got is 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around in circles? I don't think so.. I think we are just starting to make sence... That's why we'll probably get locked :)

P.S. Not a character over 25? Believe me, that is good. It seems you 're enjoying the game much more than me :)

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
come monday, if mods wont lock or delete this thread, about 80% of the posters will be gone, with some 10% of posters receiving temporal ban. Sorry for this outbusrt, but this server here is USA based, not korea based yes?
then how come the censorship is bigger on these boards then ... oh crap i'll just say it: GLUPI PANDURI NADJITE VREME DA RADITE VAS POSAO, I DA SKLONITE KINEZE I ZUTE AZIJANCE ODAVDE. KER IM MATER JEBO. SIPU RACKU PROKLETI CUVARU.
yes, feeling better . . . he he he.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the land of the free... that's why, you silly sod!

[Belophan]

farmers usual stay at same lvl too :p

20-25, then delvl to 20 > 25 and repeat..

[Pobednik]

since this topis has gone from original, and no return on the topic in the sight, what would you like more:
that devs put more people on the events, or that devs take the event managers from their desk and put them into banning the bots/buyyers program?
take note that the latter would mean no events for a year or so.
crap, my computer smells burn. must investigate...

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
since this topis has gone from original, and no return on the topic in the sight, what would you like more:
that devs put more people on the events, or that devs take the event managers from their desk and put them into banning the bots/buyyers program?
take note that the latter would mean no events for a year or so.
crap, my computer smells burn. must investigate...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like getting more people on the payrol, so they can go about banning the bots/buyyers program...

By the way, good luck on investigating... Hope your computer hasn;t gone berserk :)

[Darkmotion]

Greetings,

[ QUOTE ]

It's the land of the free... that's why, you silly sod!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh NO it's not... This is NOT the land of the free. This is the land of the brave.

Double posting is Illegal around here. You can only pull it off if you are really good...

Land of the free my ***, If this was the land of the free you would see dogs EVERYWHERE !

GRRRRRR ! WOOOOF ! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/darkmotion/FunnyVancouver.jpg)

Obviously you don't know about my dog... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/darkmotion/sharkdog2.gif)

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil

[/ QUOTE ]

[aZZmodan]

[ QUOTE ]
Greetings,

[ QUOTE ]

It's the land of the free... that's why, you silly sod!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh NO it's not... This is NOT the land of the free. This is the land of the brave.

Double posting is Illegal around here. You can only pull it off if you are really good...

Land of the free my ***, If this was the land of the free you would see dogs EVERYWHERE !

GRRRRRR ! WOOOOF ! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/darkmotion/FunnyVancouver.jpg)

Obviously you don't know about my dog... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/darkmotion/sharkdog2.gif)

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see you're a seriously deranged person. Good for you!

And it is definitely not the land of the free, nor the land of the brave... I can't say for sure who's land it is, but I'm sure it's not who's it was meant to be...

P.S. I really am past my bedtime.

[Pobednik]

what ya mean double posting aint allowed? i'll double post in several languages. great thing is that eula is in one language only. OHHHHH!!!!
wait wait waiiit!
EULA is only in english, so if a chinese downloades a game and bots he can allways plead he didnt understand the lawyer chatter. i understand english and that thing gives me headache.

so is that why gms have so much trouble exterminating the vermins? they arent on same level at all?

then again posts on other languages can talk about anything all they wont, since the word chatter doesnt cover foreign words.
freedom of expression or an exploit? discuss.

[Oranj2]

they already do

[OrcZilla]

[ QUOTE ]

It is the very core of this game to grind, but even with low(er) grinding you have more then enough people interested in it. Even games with a low amount of grind face the problems of farmers and botters, it is not the fact that some people less buy virtual money that keeps them at bay, its the ability to remove 'em from the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

And once again, I did not say that using the secondary market/bot programs could ever be completely eliminatedl but if the grind and item acquirement restrictions were eased, it would lower the the number of people who engage in that kind of activity. There will still be people who are even too lazy to put up with an hour's worth of grinding to get what they want, as per my example in the previous post. But, lowering the difficulty would pull more of the middle-tolerance people towards legit play, according to their own cost/benefit tolerances (it's a bell-shaped curve).

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah right.. and next you're telling me that security standards in Nigeria and Western Europa are the same. The lack of authority and potential punishment is what makes every system go down the drain. Some cases will happen, but it will be a _lot_ less.

[..]


[/ QUOTE ]

What you're saying is that the lack of law enforcement is the trigger that makes people commit crimes, as if all people were simply murderous animals acting on some kind of innate psychotic impulse. While that may be true for a very, very small percent of the world population (read: serial killers and the like), for the rest of the population, it's a need for something that cannot be obtained through normal methods that is the trigger.

In the case of L2, it's the need for gear/levels that drives people to committing crimes (violations of the EULA) because they are unable and/or unwilling to go trhough the legal methods of getting what they want in order to compete with those who have the gear/levels. The lack of enforcement may get some people to say "Oh well, why not?" but those people wouldn't even ask themselves that if there wasn't a need in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]

Well i guess we get somewhat closer to it, however doubling drop rates wont help much. Unless you make a _huge_ change hardly a noticeable amount of bots will go away. Lots of people are botting on high rate private servers. Lineage2 is by design a highly repetitive game which main purpose is leveling and getting your gear together. In a risk-reward consideration you'll have here 2 variables. You could lower the 'reward' with making drops more common etc. but this would have to be so fundamental it would basicly mean to change the game. Or you could increase the risk if NCSoft would do their **** job. I'm pretty sure we'll see neither though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Increasing adena yields per mob would simply inflate prices even further (more money in the system = higher prices, as each adena's value drops roughly proportionate to the increase in the money supply).

Increasing the drop rates on various items and the difficulty of certain essential quests would help alleviate the gear issue quite a bit, if adjusted enough.

If NCSoft did their job as well as everyone wish they could (basically, no farmers, bots, secondary market) while maintaining the high difficulty of the game, a pretty big chunk of the user base would quit the game, as they can no longer pay their way to high levels and gear, or even maintain the style of play that they're already accustomed to.

Furthermore, seeing as though the "damage has already been done," so to speak, it would probably usher in a very long period of dominance by those who are already top level and top-geared, regardless of whether or not they acquaired those levels and gear legally.

Sorry about any errors in this post, as I'm not writing this with my contacts in (being sick sucks). I also had an allusion to video games being blamed as the trigger for violent kids to help illustrate one of my points up there, but 'm not feeling well enough to include it in any coherent form (and it also brought the topic too far away from the issue).

[dyvrim]

Oh .....the rich just keeps getting richer!!!

What about the poor man?

[Freakazoid]

[ QUOTE ]

And once again, I did not say that using the secondary market/bot programs could ever be completely eliminatedl but if the grind and item acquirement restrictions were eased, it would lower the the number of people who engage in that kind of activity. There will still be people who are even too lazy to put up with an hour's worth of grinding to get what they want, as per my example in the previous post. But, lowering the difficulty would pull more of the middle-tolerance people towards legit play, according to their own cost/benefit tolerances (it's a bell-shaped curve).


[/ QUOTE ]
Where did i imply that you said something like that? I didn't even got the meaning of that comment in your first reply. Like i said in my first posting, i believe what you're aiming for is not the main issue to solve this problem. I have brought multiple examples that even in easier condition lots of people will use and do use it. This does not mean that you said it will get rid of bots, this only states that i believe even if you alter it in the way you suggest the effect will be hardly noticeable.

Using cheating you're saving time and when i started here long time ago i even thought getting above lvl20 is nothing short of plain working. Lowering the grind, will also attract more people who are interested in less grind and then you're back to the point were more people are interested in buying up their status. Using secondary market or bots means nothing but time saved. Yes, you could lower the time it takes to go from 1 to 78 or you could lower the time it takes to get A Grade, there still will be lots of time to be saved if you just buy it. I believe that you have adopted to the current grind and believe if it would be just a *bit* easier it would be fine, i bet it wouldn't.

[ QUOTE ]

What you're saying is that the lack of law enforcement is the trigger that makes people commit crimes, as if all people were simply murderous animals acting on some kind of innate psychotic impulse. While that may be true for a very, very small percent of the world population (read: serial killers and the like), for the rest of the population, it's a need for something that cannot be obtained through normal methods that is the trigger.


[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, we don't need to talk about serial killers and other psychopaths although even history would be full of examples were that happened. But given that nobody gets killed for playing L2 lets stay with economical thoughts. Everybody has to pay taxes, what do you think happens if nobody would enforce that? People paying because they think its right? You're giving out money to everybody that has no job, but you aren't checking if they really got no job. There'll be tons of people abusing it. Police officers are allowed to collect money, but nobody checks if the money wents to the state nor how much they collect. How do you believe this police system would look alike? Humans are doing all sort of crap just because they believe it gives them an advantage, hardly considering which side effects this would have for the system.

[ QUOTE ]

In the case of L2, it's the need for gear/levels that drives people to committing crimes (violations of the EULA) because they are unable and/or unwilling to go trhough the legal methods of getting what they want in order to compete with those who have the gear/levels. The lack of enforcement may get some people to say "Oh well, why not?" but those people wouldn't even ask themselves that if there wasn't a need in the first place.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, 'why not'. And those people will ask themself that as long as there is an advantage to be taken. You can't cut down Lineage2 to a point were people aren't asking themself this question.

[ QUOTE ]

Increasing the drop rates on various items and the difficulty of certain essential quests would help alleviate the gear issue quite a bit, if adjusted enough.


[/ QUOTE ]
See above, you wont get me convinced that this will help. Even with half grind, a quarter grind it still will be grind. Its a question to adopt to it or not. I would prefer a server with a lot less grind but i do not believe this would help in any shape or sort with the botting or secondary market problem.

[ QUOTE ]

If NCSoft did their job as well as everyone wish they could (basically, no farmers, bots, secondary market) while maintaining the high difficulty of the game, a pretty big chunk of the user base would quit the game, as they can no longer pay their way to high levels and gear, or even maintain the style of play that they're already accustomed to.


[/ QUOTE ]
Probably, on the other hand lots of people have already reached noble status and swim in adena.

[ QUOTE ]

I also had an allusion to video games being blamed as the trigger for violent kids to help illustrate one of my points up there, but 'm not feeling well enough to include it in any coherent form (and it also brought the topic too far away from the issue).

[/ QUOTE ]
Erm yes, i dont think we have to come around with that. I suppose though that we're starting to jump in circles here. You believe its just the grind that needs to be lessened and i believe if NCSoft isn't handling the problem nothing will change at all. What we obviously agree is that the problem can't be fixed fully. Given that bots will be always around and that people always have the incentive to get into an advanced position the only thing that keeps them from flodding everything is enforcing rules. The amount of grind just determines how many people in total will play the game and which audience it attracts, but you'll probably disagree to that. :p

[Mistryl]

This has been an interesting discussion, but as some of you guessed, I am closing this thread now. Please see this thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=442966) for more information on this forum rule. Thank you!