Defining "Assist"

[MarcusAlberton]

I read over cornflakes today that an ally thats friendly to us is now KOS to Inv because they were assisting Chaos.

My first question was, what is assisting.

RB have stayed neutral by following some simple rules and this is how we define assisting. If the leaders of Chaos or Inv see this as greatly different to their interpretation then please let me know via pm or post, if I dont hear then I'll assume you agree.

To me, assisting Chaos/Inv would mean:

1. Buffing tagged Chaos/Inv people immediately before they fight Inv/Chaos when we have the knowledge that the fight will occur.

2. Fighting alongside Chaos/Inv people against Inv/Chaos people

3. Providing information to Chaos/Inv people on the location of Inv/Chaos people.

If someone is untagged, then unless they tell you explicitly they they belong to Chaos or Inv then assisting them is not considered to be assisting Chaos or Inv.

Have fun.

[Bhodosativa]

~helping them fight in any way.

This isn't a game mechanic you are trying to exploit, or a law you are trying to circumvent... you won't be let off due to a technicality.

[Physics4ever]

the issue that usually comes up on the ally boards when discussing it is malice of intent. That is to say why were yuo helping them because you were in a group and hunting at the time and you'd do the same if you were in an inv group? Or are you buffing them with the specific intent on causing damage to Inv. Neutrals are given a fairly wide berth but if you are seen as helping chaos for PVP purposes then you will probably have problems.

[oblivonknight]

i wonder if this would have anything to do with yesterdays late night fight of WOvsGorillaz at FG hmm if not due tell

[DaShmoo]

I don't speak for chaos on this, just for myself.

1.) I would consider assisting buffing/healing/resing during, before, after PvP between the 2.

2.) Telling locations.

3.) Fighting with one side against the other.

Chaos incidents usually are talked about between leaders and if the situation warents it or talks tween chaos and other party clearly showed they weren't neutral, kos.

I will add marcus theres a delicate line anyone getting involved on one side or another creates. Generally if a said neutral clan had friends on one side or another, it's only natural info could come out thus voiding neutrality.

It's a thin line which is blurred many times over. If a clan wants to really stay neutral you need to make sure your members know the rules and have harsh consequences. RB maintains it well becuase you all do your own thing, and don't really party with either side. Other clans that do (ie cuz of friends) have a harder time.

That clan/ally should talk to GMB and see whats up, and work out whatever deal to get out of said situation I'd imagine. Being there once myself I wish that person good luck, lol.

[jkoster]

I know I've been grouped with people from Mirage before and watched them get planted by Chaos. I panicked, thinking there would be a full party wipe (and since I was partied, that concerned me) so I started healing.

Bad decision. If I'd stayed out of it, I wouldn't have fallen down.

But I managed to stay off the list. Just made sure to open up communications.

[Twisted]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I've been grouped with people from Mirage before and watched them get planted by Chaos. I panicked, thinking there would be a full party wipe (and since I was partied, that concerned me) so I started healing.

Bad decision. If I'd stayed out of it, I wouldn't have fallen down.

But I managed to stay off the list. Just made sure to open up communications.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is pretty acurate. If I participate in a killing of enemies I never touch the neutrals. If they become purple they die. Simple rules of Engagement

[Aranya]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I've been grouped with people from Mirage before and watched them get planted by Chaos. I panicked, thinking there would be a full party wipe (and since I was partied, that concerned me) so I started healing.

Bad decision. If I'd stayed out of it, I wouldn't have fallen down.

But I managed to stay off the list. Just made sure to open up communications.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

I was partied with Mirage 'cause I couldn't find a party anywhere else one time, ported in to CT w/ them. They were dropped on the spot by Aurorae before we even got the change to hit a mob. Aurorae asked me what my intentions were, I told them XP-purposes, and they let me go on my way w/out an issue.

I agree with someone's statement above though. So long as it's not PvP related, I think a neutral should be able to party w/ opposing alliances without any issues. After all, at a certain point, many spots *are* taken by Inv or Chaos. Where's that leave us neutrals if we can't party up? ;D

[Malkavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know I've been grouped with people from Mirage before and watched them get planted by Chaos. I panicked, thinking there would be a full party wipe (and since I was partied, that concerned me) so I started healing.

Bad decision. If I'd stayed out of it, I wouldn't have fallen down.

But I managed to stay off the list. Just made sure to open up communications.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

I was partied with Mirage 'cause I couldn't find a party anywhere else one time, ported in to CT w/ them. They were dropped on the spot by Aurorae before we even got the change to hit a mob. Aurorae asked me what my intentions were, I told them XP-purposes, and they let me go on my way w/out an issue.

I agree with someone's statement above though. So long as it's not PvP related, I think a neutral should be able to party w/ opposing alliances without any issues. After all, at a certain point, many spots *are* taken by Inv or Chaos. Where's that leave us neutrals if we can't party up? ;D

[/ QUOTE ]

imo where the game intended you to be.

Fighting with them for those spots.

[jkoster]

Yep. Cause there's only so many times that I can fall down before they get repetative-motion injuries and can't fight any more.

Victory by attrition!

[TrueLies]

Marcus, first I'll share that personally I am impressed that RisingBlades has done very well for quite some time taking Innaudril, holding the castle, doing raid bosses, yet not becoming involved with the whole Chaos/Invin/Mirage/Aurorae fight. It's not an accident and takes work from all sides.

If there was a recent incident we can certainly talk about it, but one incident in ?6 months isn't bad at all. Anyway the posters in this thread summed things up pretty fairly. If a tagged member of Chaos was to raid with you, then yes we would intervene.

The challenge for you I would suggest is players whom you don't know the background of, but are untagged. A random example: we know Mikiko to be a Star bd. Mikiko (I think that's the right spelling) is not tagged but when we see the toon, we view it as 100% Chaos and offer no distinction. If Mikiko was doing a raid with you we would see that as your ally doing a raid with Chaos. It's a challenge no doubt, and I am sure similiar issues can arise from both sides.

Just a suggestion....you MAY want to inquire exactly what player(s) led to the attack and then ask the players what is up. I am pretty sure they know. Most have been fighting us for a year or more. I'd suggest sometimes they may even do it intentionally to cause the conflict.

For me personally, I can overlook some things. I recall watching you guys kill Orfen at the start of C4. Two Blue Wolves were with your group. I think ?Faiths was helping you guys and ?FateOfLife was there. I didn't view Faiths as actually adding any value to the raid, and FateOfLife was just watching. I slept Fate who then asked if he could watch in peace. I decided to let it go and we stood there and watched. Nothing like that has really happened before or since, but really when you raid with players who have enemies, it's understandable the enemies may attack.

[SirCalibus]

but !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What if ...

All of a sudden GMB and Trolw decide to join risingblades and start /roleplaying...

Would that make risingblades Kos to Chaos?????????

and how many people would get banned ?????

[ChuckHoboDUH]

[ QUOTE ]
but !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What if ...

All of a sudden GMB and Trolw decide to join risingblades and start /roleplaying...

Would that make risingblades Kos to Chaos?????????

and how many people would get banned ?????

[/ QUOTE ]

server would crash and no one would bother to bring it back up

[Bhodosativa]

I had a pic somewhere... it was pretty funny.

TrollW an Sharif where partied in TOI.... along with other people I can't remember ( possibly Dashmoo, Jaihe, etc ). It was so wrong...

[Twisted]

[ QUOTE ]
For me personally, I can overlook some things. I recall watching you guys kill Orfen at the start of C4. Two Blue Wolves were with your group. I think ?Faiths was helping you guys and ?FateOfLife was there. I didn't view Faiths as actually adding any value to the raid, and FateOfLife was just watching. I slept Fate who then asked if he could watch in peace. I decided to let it go and we stood there and watched.

[/ QUOTE ]


See that Marcus. TL played god to your game. He decided not to interfere with your raid out of kindness. Isn't it wonderful of him to be making the decisions about weather your raid gets interfeared with or not. I bet you never knew that you didn't have a say in things and it's simply truelies that dictates what he feels is a threat to him by your raiding of orfen.

Maybe to stay neutral you should run every action you make in this game through him.

/end sarcasm

[Physics4ever]

Dude don't pretend like chaos wouldn't make the same set of considerations. I mean who would have though that the decission makers in an alliance would be the ones to [censored] a threat to said alliance. What's your alternative? Maybe you think TL should ask Sandron what he thinks on the matter and vice versa?

Honestly if you're going to try and fling mud at least reason through it before you try. TL even said in his post that he's willing to discuss issues with people. His initial reaction however is to protect his alliance, it's what any decent ally leader would do and i fail to see how taking care of your people is a bad thing.

[CantoScav]

Actually, TL isny playing god of anyones game. if he had chosen to interefere, Im sure someone would have dropped him. I know my clan would have. Interfere with my raids, hunts, or whatever, and we fight back.

Thats my biggest issue with remaining neutral. Neither side seems to WANT neutrals to stay neutral. They do everything they can to push us to join a side.

If you see 1 chaos/inv person in a party of neutrals, drop the chaos/inv person and go. There is NO reason to anger up the neutrals. If the neutrals flag, go for it, drop em, but dont cry KoS if they drop you, thats childish.

Kwanza Flagged on me the other day in FG, I stunned him out of an SoE and 2 chaos peeps showed up. Am I KoS? Nope. I was having fun with someone I've known for over a year now. But if any other invincible member had been there, I'd have been dropped and put on KoS or somthing silly like that.

I've got great friends on both sides. I had to turn one down the other day when I was asked to join him in one of my favorite spoiling spots. Simply because he is Invincible, and its an area where both sides go looking for eachother(not FG). It sucks to not be able to play the game with friends because some people cant get over themselves and thier supposed uberness.

I like to hunt in ToI, DVC and other places, and sometimes I want to party with friends in those places, but I dont, because I value my neutrality pretty highly. It allows me to play the game I enjoy in peace most of the time, but at the cost of friendships.

Enough blathering from me I guess.

[jkoster]

There are a lot of things that can be said about neutrality. To maintain it, as has been stated, requires a lot of work and sacrifices. CantoScav pointed out that he can't hunt with friends for fear (not saying you're afraid. Just a figure of speech) of being seen as taking a side.

Max Eastman once said “People who demand neutrality in any situation are usually not neutral but in favor of the status quo." But I see it as being different in Lineage. While it is true that many who espouse neutrality seek to keep things the way they are, there are also those that fall under the neutral heading that actually have chosen a side: their own.

To me, that is how I see Rising Blades. We are neutral in that we don't want to disturb either of the Big 2, but we are not neutral in that we are looking out for the best interests of our own members.

So here's my question: What is neutral?

[CantoScav]

In Lineage, I see neutral as being what people want to be, if they do not want to be involved in daily PvP. I have plenty of fun PvPing when there is a reason to do it. But the game would be far less fun for me if I have to spend every minute Im in game watching over my shoulder for an enemy out to kill me. I like the freedom to go wherever I want, and do whatever I want without worry.

Neutral, as I see it, is not a vote for political status quo, it is a vote for PERSONAL status quo. I do not like certain things about EITHER power alliance. I realize that there is nothing I can personally do to change it. I also realize that trying to fight the powers that be will only drag myself, my clan and my alliance down to thier level, and nothing will change other than myself.

[Physics4ever]

I think neutrality is a difficult thing to maintain. Almost all of my friends are in noob but i dont' hunt with them anymore. Even my roommates who i've known for 4 years will hardly hunt with me. And if chaos comes up on us when we ARE attacker, they don't do anything.

It sucks that i can't hunt with my friends but i don't want noob the stop being neutral and neither do they. It's the oddity of lineage that neutrality is an active role rather than passive acceptance.

[shad0wlf]

sucks to be you Marcus.

love the crown.

[oblivonknight]

Neutrality is really an odd stance to take in a pvp game but props to those who have and still do manage it. however it vex's me when i hear about people picking on them just for fun, an example of this would be voo and crew attacking them at fg the other night so WO (including sharif el o el) gathered up and rolled em.

[CantoScav]

Since when does the fact that it is a PvP game define how people play it? We're not running around throwing flowers at people and preaching peace and free love, we're preaching free love and PvP for valid reasons other than "YOU R ENEMY! DIE DIE DIE DIE!"

Too many people think that Open PvP means treat the game like an FPS, Lineage is a political game first and foremost in my mind. To gain political power, it is better NOT to be the aggressor. Sit back, bide your time, build your forces up, and wait for the aggressors to fade away as they predictably will.

[MarcusAlberton]

I didnt want this thread to be a discussion of neutrality as thats a much bigger topic. The focus here was on discussing what counts as assisting and TL has brought up the point of helping on raids which is something I hadnt taken into account.

My aim for Innadril has always been to make it a castle that can be fought for by the non-aligned allies. There are a lot of neutral clans full of 60+ ppl that wouldnt get to seige otherwise without getting involved in the Chaos/Inv fight. Chaos and Inv have been good enough to stay out of it.