Sleep Nerf = toooooo much

[brandon12]

First aura flare gets nuked to hell and is absolutely useless in pvp. Now cancel is nerfed and is useless for pvp and sleep's casting speed is eternal. AOE sleep takes even longer than sleep..............
The sps/sorc had been balanced out, but now we are pretty much sitting ducks. We have no ability to defend against any dagger that get's close due to daggers' return to greatness. We truely will become the paper doll toons on the server. Does anyone in NA NC Soft actually play the game and each toon as we get them "fair and balanced"?

[Pirate101]

/signed

[admiral_ju00]

Ooh goodie. Can't wait to log in and try my noob nuker ><

[Tarun]

Not to be a troll, but can't you just party with a tank or something?

[Orka]

so true

this is a MULTIPLAYER game.. in pve the mob is dead before they get to you, same should count in pvp. i believe tanks hate work now, and im not sure how long sleep takes with full caster setting but im sure you can think of something

you are a MAGE, you wear nothing but cloth. no real armor is present. how do you think it would feel IRL to have a knife go right trough your pink dress, going right into your heart. it hurts! so..

im glad they finally did this. sps/sorc were FAR from ballances vs any melee.

[Mizwisfist]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be a troll, but can't you just party with a tank or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

NC is saying the game is being redesigned to facilitate solo gameplay...

Requiring sleepers to be in groups in the meantime is quite contradictory...

[Zypherys]

When you are running in the fied and accidently aggro 2 mobs.. you are dead...

If any melee is within 900 range.. we are dead (this is of course what the melees want..) but PvP isn't the point...

We are toast against aggro mobs.. they just gave all Crowd Control duties to healers... our sleep is useless.

Its back to tthe days of pre lvl 20 when if you aggroed a spider in DE lands.. you couldnt outrun it.. couldnt kill it.. you died.. plain and simple..

GG NCStupid

[Pirate101]

I logged into a necro after my net died today... oh dear. I can't use sleep cloud anymore. *dies*

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]
NC is saying the game is being redesigned to facilitate solo gameplay...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a warlord, "solo" is synonymous to "SP" to me. I don't fret, but it bugs me when a class that beats me before I can even get *one* hit in in pvp, complains that he can't solo in pve.

[PameanWraith]

I've got 10 bucks that some tank fighting a higher level mage in the arena comes to the boards demanding another nuker nerf before the end of the week.

[nolerahl]

[ QUOTE ]
how do you think it would feel IRL to have a knife go right through your pink dress

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at first this sounded really **** for some odd reason.( lol man I need some sleep)(if you don't get it...plz don't comment)

[ QUOTE ]
going right into your heart. it hurts!

[/ QUOTE ]

then you said this, and I was like oh **** that would hurt.


omg a mage party a tank, and let the tank suck their XP, hearsay. [/end scarcasem]

Death to the mages!

WTB a decrease in sleep cloud cast time tho. Man DVC groups will be hard with out AoE sleeper.

[Helldereth]

No kidding, and im sure it will happen soon...
Thx to the whinners that cant play their class properlly, we get nerfed to the point where we cant do nothing anymore... before u whine some more, how about u go to arena n learn how to PvP.... :mad:

I dont want to share my XP with a tank, i duo just great with my SE friend, we didint need this BS nerf... i heard that fear is not that impressive either... great..... :confused:

Well, ima be giving my Sps a trial run tonite to see how bad it as gotten when PvE-ing....

Cheers!!

[MalineII]

Sleep isn't useless - it's still worthwhile as a preliminary puller, just as a life-saver.

I always had trouble with the thought of characters that aren't, like Faelir, totally foggy in the head, going off in the middle of battle to have a little nap.

[BlankStares]

[ QUOTE ]
When you are running in the fied and accidently aggro 2 mobs.. you are dead...

If any melee is within 900 range.. we are dead (this is of course what the melees want..) but PvP isn't the point...

We are toast against aggro mobs.. they just gave all Crowd Control duties to healers... our sleep is useless.

Its back to tthe days of pre lvl 20 when if you aggroed a spider in DE lands.. you couldnt outrun it.. couldnt kill it.. you died.. plain and simple..

GG NCStupid

[/ QUOTE ]

You are damage dealers, not crowd control.

About time you friggin came back to earth.

Absolutely no sympathy. Group with melee and healers now or die.

And sorry, no more 100% kill rate in PVP. TOUGH!

im the minority because I stubbornly refused to reroll to a nuker.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Meet ya in the arena, you can still kill me, but now, I can get to you too. :)

[HO_Paulino]

I saved a lot of lives with sleeping cloud and myself with sleep.
I think that the Spellsinger were too nerfed, because in party they can't do a lot of damage and they burn his MP in some nukes but they are the best sleeper (Casting Speed).
I propose to restore the old casting speed in PVE and use the actual casting speed in PVP, we know that since C4 is useless in PVP.

[PleChan]

[ QUOTE ]
No kidding, and im sure it will happen soon...
Thx to the whinners that cant play their class properlly, we get nerfed to the point where we cant do nothing anymore... before u whine some more, how about u go to arena n learn how to PvP.... :mad:

I dont want to share my XP with a tank, i duo just great with my SE friend, we didint need this BS nerf... i heard that fear is not that impressive either... great..... :confused:

Well, ima be giving my Sps a trial run tonite to see how bad it as gotten when PvE-ing....

Cheers!!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you got an SE in your party then why are you complaning? Make the SE root, problem done, sure rangers willstill be attack but all you need to do is nuke them first.

Or, you maby don't got an alive SE :P, so if not maby you should party them some more.

[Belthasar]

My SpS uses sleep most of time when grouped, solo only when being in a high aggro place.
And I don't mean just sleeping adds, also sleeping a mob before he can get off a para cast, high dmg aoe spell, etc.
I play in regular partys with REAL tanks, and with SC nerfed like this it will take a lot more mp to heal. It will be a hell of a lot more difficult to do things like boss room in IT.
And what do I see here? People just laughing in the most childish way about seeing nukers nerfed, probably not even knowing that full PvE partys will take the biggest hit from this. They will die a LOT more, when they don't happen to have PR everytime their tank pulls too much.
I'm angry and disgusted to see my playstyle nerfed, that I have grown accustomed to since they introduced sleep to nukers over 2 years ago. And I'm not talking about pvp since I'm probably the only SpS who's not really interested in that.
Oh yea and good luck trying to have your healers heal and cast trance at the same time.
I agree that sleep was a bit too easy to get off, but giving SC a base cast time of 15 seconds is just plainly ridicolous.

[MalineII]

[ QUOTE ]
sleeping a mob before he can get off a para cast, high dmg aoe spell, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get a real healer. It's good that they're finally the only ones who have the big damage-mitigating spells.

PvE parties just got more exciting, they're not going to die unless they're lazy and rely on sleep cloud.

Healers can't trance and heal at the same time - but of course they are very capable of switching targets, and the new HoT will help keep people alive while doing the damage-mitigating thing off to the side.

If you're in a place where you constantly need to heal or sleep, you're in over your head anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not talking about pvp since I'm probably the only SpS who's not really interested in that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah right...

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]
And I don't mean just sleeping adds, also sleeping a mob before he can get off a para cast, high dmg aoe spell, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that sound a little unintended to you? A sleep spell so fast, so guaranteed to land, that you can use it to interrupt casts?

[Lord Chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be a troll, but can't you just party with a tank or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all classes have the hate skill.

[MalineII]

Well, that sleep spell rests with EEs and bishops now.

I can't wait to try out actual sleep once I hit 40 - I don't think it'll be too bad with a full cast speed setup. :D

[Lord Chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
and the new HoT will help keep people alive while doing the damage-mitigating thing off to the side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm, no it won't. First of all if a nuker can stand around for 15 seconds taking damage without requiring additional healing, then he wasn't really in any danger in the first place. If the nuker can't stand around for 15 seconds, then the heals won't help more than before because the HOTs will override eachother.

[Lord Chaos]

So let me get this straight, you're playing expert on sleep and HoT and you haven't actually really played with either yet?

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to be a troll, but can't you just party with a tank or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all classes have the hate skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

One would assume tanks did.

[MalineII]

Uhm, I'm not talking about a nuker sleeping anything LC. Please, please, context.

I'm talking about a healer healing, trancing, and turning back around to throw a second heal - without the trance time killing the tank off.

The claim was that doing a damage-mitigating sleep (which can really only be done with trance now) would ruin a healer's ability to actually heal. The cast times on heals and trance are the same as my old heal and sleep casts - faster actually - so I know the turn-around is very possible.

Unless there's a situation in which the tank will die unless spammed heals on non-stop ... but that's not something that should happen frequently.

PS: Yes, I've had C5 sleep - wootwoot - and C5 HoTs. I only had them in light armour though, without proper WIT tattooage or an acumen weapon.

[Belthasar]

I play with a "real healer" on a daily basis, and my parties usually have at least one more. All I'm saying is I'm not sure if all the new buffs/spells EEs get will really even this out, but I guess we'll see.
And yes, I'm quite unhappy about having my role in party being reduced to a sub-par DD. Oh well, since I still have the best cast speed possible I'll manage to work out somhow... just will become a bit more difficult.

Off-Topic: Maline, I play this char since 2 years, so why is it so difficult to believe that not every nuker is part of the FoTM reroll train? PvP bores me, I participate in sieges when I'm clanned, but thats about it. I can go play a FPS if I want PvP ;)

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
When you are running in the fied and accidently aggro 2 mobs.. you are dead...

[/ QUOTE ]
Not Spellsingers. They might want to put Aura Flare back on their hotbars, though.

[MalineII]

Sorry, I misread your post - I thought you said you were the only SpS interested in PvP, and you'll understand if that made me snort.

If you're not, yes - I actually do feel for the cool job of crowd control; but I still think CC with SC was too easy and outshadowed everyone far too much. I'm all for giving SpS some new CC tools - just nothing that can shut down 20 mobs in less than a second, that's simply ludicrous.

I think a jab type spell with a higher chance to interrupt and super-fast cast (landing rate about like sleep, including protection from it by MA and/or concentration), or some sort of other CC might have been cool.

On the other hand, I'm still totally behind the nerf that happened to sleep - it simply speaking made PvE too safe.

[SirStompalot]

Just as we over powered daggers got hammerd in C2 (yes we was over powered once) all you overpowerd nukers have had two of your skills nerfed, not your class as a whole. Big deal you can no longer wipe out a whole party solo in pvp, you should have never been able to anyway.

Cry good peeps and now learn to party up and play in a group as your ment to do.

Oh and spare a thought for the poor dorf who have been gimp from prelude...

[MalineII]

I find it amusing that PvP is being used as a counterarguement in both sides - am I the only one who thinks this nerf was primarily aimed at PvE?

[HO_Paulino]

I wanna my SP back to learn Curse of Fear xD

[Tarun]

I dunno. I found it just as annoying in 1v1 with the Sleep/run/nuke/sleep/run/nuke thing. Don't think I've ever been slept on the siege field or in mass pvp tho.

[Crawlerin]

[ QUOTE ]
they just gave all Crowd Control duties to healers... our sleep is useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's how it was before sleep was given to mages, and that's how it should be.
Cry me a river about nerfing mages and giving us some abilities...

[Whisky]

I dont care about the PVP aspect. But sounds like it needed " a nerf" during PVP.

1 that thing really bothers/annoys me with this during PvE. it is the simple thing of running from 1 place to another.
i get agro from time to time while running. Normally i would just sleep the mob and continue running.
Now that is not possible.
Whats the big deal you think? well even lower lvl (light blue)hit me for 10% of my hp each hit. healing pots are not effective enough.
Now i have to be very carefull in killing everything in my path,which just takes time and maybe a party is waiting for me...well maybe it more a pain for the ppl waiting i guess.
I still haven't tried fighting more then 1 mob now, i used to rely on sleep for that, i dont know how that will work now.

NCSoft,try fighting 3 mobs(4xhp ones) just cause you are trying to move from A to B. please note they agro you,it is not you that get "first hit".
And tell me how it works out without sleep :)

Also note my wizard is only lvl 36. maybe the AoE will sleep alot.

[nolerahl]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for giving SpS some new CC tools - just nothing that can shut down 20 mobs in less than a second, that's simply ludicrous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you've ever been in a DVC group.

trust me when I tell ya...pull 20 mobs have SC fail half them kill 1/3 of those that didn't sleep and have respwan respawn right on top of you. or so close they argo to ya.

even back in C3/4 in a DVC group usely wouldn't form up if they didn't have a scor or sps for SC control. and even then SC failed.

[Zypherys]

This is not about frelling PvP

This is about PvE...

I suggest all nukers enjoy the next feww weeks as parties get slaughteres all over aden by mobs due to inexperienced healer/sleepers who cant figure out which to do first.. cause we all know they will heal first and burn their mana.

I personally will Laugh uproariously as I hear ppl return to these forums and whine and complain that they cant hunt where they used to anymore cause of inability to control the mobs.

To the gladi that says it was a needed nurf to PvE because it will assist you in PvP.. go learn how to argue.

You will ALL learn that nurfing sleep cast time is a bad thing for PvE.

Once more for all you slow ones.. THIS IS ABOUT PVE... NOT PVP!!!

[Lord Chaos]

Dunno, C5 and further changes makes PvE safer for cheating and/or powerplaying nukers, drastically more unsafe "lesser" nukers.

[Orka]

euhm... why not just take a healer with you ? or take your friendly OL along :P our sleep aint that slow, and if you overagro 5+ mobs, you deserve to die imo. or you can take the extra healer allong and be done with it aswell.

this is a ggreat thing, because it will require more LIVE healers to enter the battle instead of player one with box 1 2 and 3 on the side and player 2 3 4

[nolerahl]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont want to share my XP with a tank, i duo just great with my SE friend, we didint need this BS nerf... i heard that fear is not that impressive either... great.....

Well, ima be giving my Sps a trial run tonite to see how bad it as gotten when PvE-ing....


[/ QUOTE ]

see what I meen??

just what I said in my first thread.

no nuker wants to give up his XP for a tank...they wont do it.

And this dude just proved my point about it.


Now I posted to zypherys cause of his comment:

[ QUOTE ]
THIS IS ABOUT PVE... NOT PVP!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

no man, this game is not about PvE...this game is about PvP...it's only a use of PvE that gets you to 76+ for PvP.

PvE is a steeping stone, a meens to the end. not t's not what this game is all about...it is tho about 70% of the game how ever.

not I'm not discrediting that sleep in PvE is very slow to the point of removing it from your bar.(which is bad)

infact it's really bad cause now only bishop and EE...the two lest played healer classes in the game get a sleep thats fast(WC dream spirit was reduced in cast time to 4 sec tho)

[EllieBelly]

It's not bad, I did a SH (slowest casting) from 1-61 on the PTS and didn't die any more than when I had sleep (which was almost never).

[Zypherys]

Dude.. I';m a spellhowler.. we got 1 sleep which is now useless... I am now denied pit parties.. forget trying to get down to imp tomb. The class and job I have been doing for 2 years is now denied to me cause of whiny meatshields *who will suffer for this by my hand and by mobs*

Not to mention if I wander into a cata or necro and accidently aggro 2 or more mobs.. I'm dead or I bsoe.. no other options now.

GL trying to find 2 healrs for your parties now cause 1 healer wont be able to control IT bug room or pit AND heal..

So all meatshields.. plz.. DIE fast.. too bad you wont drop stuff anymore.. that would make it all the funnier :D

[Lord Chaos]

Tanks can only hold the agro if they have hate, not all classes have this.

And just a pull of 2 mobs can go terribly wrong for a nuker, unlike melee and archer classes, nukers do not have a mostly garanteed damage over time.

[Lord Chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not bad, I did a SH (slowest casting) from 1-61 on the PTS and didn't die any more than when I had sleep (which was almost never).

[/ QUOTE ]

You did make up for it by simply using raw power and a healer ;) to punch through the mobs.

If you didn't really use sleep in the first place, this won't really affect you.

[NNZorn]

The nerf is terrible but doesn't render the skill useless. It still works in group pve just takes a tad bit longer, a 2 second cast vs no sleep is still worth doing if you need to sleep in the first place. Running through a field and getting 2-3 agro mobs, you shouldent die unless you're trying to sleep your way through a catacomb or way out of your level range. It's a total waste in pvp to begin with unless you could cancel but for pve is still effective.

[Headcrab]

[ QUOTE ]
I logged into a necro after my net died today... oh dear. I can't use sleep cloud anymore. *dies*

[/ QUOTE ]
No surprise there as we don't get Sleeping Cloud ;)

Anyway, I solo 99% of the time, and to be honest I can't remember last time I used Sleep. I can usually tank the mobs using Vampiric Claw (which now returns more HP) and kiting them around.

I don't see this Chronicle as a huge nerf to my class, at least not on paper. I've yet to try it out, still waiting for some computer parts. The only thing that bothers me is that Vampiric Claw now does less damage, which means I'll have to use Death Spike more. That doubles the cost of grinding, but it's a topic for another thread.

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]
Tanks can only hold the agro if they have hate, not all classes have this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess the term varies, but personally I wouldn't call a class with 4k pdef and 15k hp a tank unless he has hate. Orcs and dwarves for example, I call meathshields. Whenever I talk about tanks I mean DA/TK/SK.

[ QUOTE ]
You will ALL learn that nurfing sleep cast time is a bad thing for PvE.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sleep is the only reason I am usually not wanted in parties. To me, this change will make it easier for me to get groups and my TS will actually be useful if we get adds.

[nolerahl]

you forgot pally's to...they are tanks to ya kow!

[Lord Chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Sleep is the only reason I am usually not wanted in parties.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would sleep be the reason you're NOT wanted in parties? That doesn't make sense.

[Whisky]

i think he means , that because he has an AoE skill that breaks sleep he gets in less teams. Well sorta like that :)

[nolerahl]

cause now he can't do CC.

no sleep = no CC.

with places like DVC= antharas lair, where the mobs have a very fast respwan rate, (you wouldn't know SP wont let you in there) you need a good crowd controller to stop the mobs from over runing your group.

IT, MoS, DVC, FoG, stacako nest(StK), swamp of sreams,ToI are all places where you need a good CCer.

[Whisky]

I would like to know WHY sleep was nerfed?
The Pvp part i understan, but ccouln't implented it so that it was just longer casting for PvP?
Or was SLeep abused in some way during PvE?

[MalineII]

He's a warlord. He, too, has an AoE CC skill - but who needs AoE stun when you can have the oh-so-safe sleep cloud?

And I'm sorry, I just don't think it should be possible to hunt in a place where the old sleep cloud is required. Bring a dagger or something.

Sleep made PvE very safe - so safe that the cushion of a real healer (bishop, EE) or real tank (TK, SK, DA, Pal) was often foregone in favour of a melee with low armour and high damage output tanking - after all, you can just sleep adds.

[Varaya]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it amusing that PvP is being used as a counterarguement in both sides - am I the only one who thinks this nerf was primarily aimed at PvE?

[/ QUOTE ]

They intended it as a nerf to 1v1 self-buffed pvp in the olympiad. I cannot think of anything else.

Because in BUFFED pvp, sleep never landed anyway. You usually needed like five or six tries to sleep somebody, and then it's probably better anyway to spend that mana (sleep cost=nuke cost) on five or six nukes...

And in pve, this nerf is a complete killer. Using SC now is a kamikaze move. Without a tank, you will most likely get 1/3 to 1/2 of the mobs after you when you use SC, because it causes a LOT of aggro. With a tank, the tank can hate the mobs and you have time to use SC (all the while the healer has to waste a ****load of mp to keep the tank alive for 5-10 seconds with 10+ mobs beating on him), and while SC works/when it wears off the tank has to use quite a lot of hate aura or the mobs will go after the nuker - a quick recast of SC is not possible.

Yes, using SC is still possible if you have a tank in the party. But even then you will need far more mp than before to heal the tank, maybe root the mobs when they run after the nuker, hate to get aggro back and give the nuker time to recast, and so on.

And Maline, the argument "when you need SC you are in over your head anyway" is getting old. There are areas in the game where you have so many mobs, fast respawn, and "spawner" mobs that even a full "blue tag" party WITH tank and bishop will be happy about SC. I definitely have the feeling that some mobs and areas were actually DESIGNED with sleeping cloud in mind. That's something I really do not like about NCSoft - they put skills into the game, then they put in mobs and areas where you need those skills or where they make sense and make exping easier, then they decide "oh that skill is actually good, let's nerf it" - but they keep the mobs/areas in game. Think e.g. of AB and aoe nukes. Now AB is not a "necessary" area for quests, so the area is simply devoid of players now, because the aoe skill nerf makes exp worse than in a normal lvling spot and even pole users do not like the area because of the stun. But some of the new higher level areas with necessary quests will be pretty hard to do now. Not necessarily party wipes (though I can see that coming when you get something like an unlucky double or triple spawn in forge of gods and simply run out of mp on the healers), but exp will be slow because you will have definitely more downtime.

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sleep is the only reason I am usually not wanted in parties.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would sleep be the reason you're NOT wanted in parties? That doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

All my skills are aoe which wakes sleeps, sans howl. If I don't use TS or WW, I'm just a tank with no shield, no hate, and slower attack speed. Focus does not work on specials.

The old sleep was so fast, that if we got an add and I instantly started my stun, a mage could easily sleep it a little later and my stun landed after the sleep did, waking it up again.

[Rages]

yea I said this was going to happen when I read the sleep nerf

Waiting for you guys to scream to high heaven about not bng able to sleep the mobs for crowd control. :cool: There are many place on the map that even parties will have a difficult time now that sleep cant even be used properly for PVE.

Way to go NCSoft. You think they complaining now wait until they get to higher levels. w00t.

[GildranTheMighty]

Hope everyone here realizes that the land rate of sleep is by no means affected... Hell, Mental Shield got a freaking nerf.

You can STILL sleep those (EDIT:) 20 mobs, it just takes longer. Jesus Christ, now you actually have to plan ahead! If [censored] goes wrong, your SC still is useful, just make sure your healer is already hard at work at sleeping/healing whatever the case may be.

The ONLY thing that has changed is nukers can no longer solo pinks and reds like they are greens. If I remember correctly, somewhere in the mystic class description sometime ago it said they have a HARD TIME SOLOING because of their low defense. ZOH MY [censored] GAWD!

[MalineII]

I remember being in tomb, not with a sleeper but with ... jajan, a puller. Yes, tight-spawn rooms might be too much for a party without SC - and if AoE sleep is required for a given area, it's up to NCSoft to redesign it. I don't know why they would design into such a broken skill, but it's NCSoft of course.

Elemental Summoners still like half HP mobs for AoE - just a shame there aren't nearly half as many of us as there are of SpS, or the whole place would be bustling with merrows and/or soulless's collecting trains.

[Lord Chaos]

Thats not what he wrote, read it again.

He wrote that he couldn't get parties before because of sleep, but now BECAUSE of the nerf to sleep he can get parties.

Which doesn't really make sense, hence my question.

[MalineII]

[ QUOTE ]
Sleep is the only reason I am usually not wanted in parties. To me, this change will make it easier for me to get groups and my TS will actually be useful if we get adds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like he wrote just that to me: '__'

[ QUOTE ]
Sleep is the [...] reason I am usually not wanted in parties.

[/ QUOTE ]

By way of slightly longer explanation: If all adds are slept, a warlord is like an elephant grazing amidst a precious collection of rare china/porcellaine (? the fragile stuff): A really bad idea.

If they can't be slept anyway, he can provide an AoE stun and of course howl and quicker clear-up in case of adds: In short, he can do his AoE job.

[Tarun]

Because now I can stun and WW when we get adds. Before I could not as I would wake the slept mobs.

[Thorn]

*Not in rsponse to Maline :p* Let me just say ROFL. Nukers whining about being underpowered? Ha. CC is not your job! A nuker's job is to, I dunno....Nuke? Blow the hell out of anything that moves? Party with an OL or another Support class. LoL - Offensive classes think they should have everything. How the hell did you guys get along before you had sleep? Good I assume. Come up with new playstyle tactics or reroll.

[MalineII]

<crosses her fingers she got it right> :p Reading in context is hard Tarun - make longer posts saying the same thing over again more often, it increases my hit rate! Sometimes I even get a crit on such posts...

[PameanWraith]

As a sorc, I am a mana-eating, decent to mediocre DD. I mean if I am needed in a group to nuke, then my mana is shot very quickly. I spent more ss beating mobs than sps on spells. My job in a group has always been CC.

Now, MalineII has a very narrow view on the game, clearly anti-nuker from every post on the subject. But I can't deny her the perspective she has. I can't even deny the validity of the argument that if you are in an area needing sleep-cloud that you are in over your head, because in a game like L2, if you die to mobs (and it isn't a bug or lag) you have only yourself (or your mates) to blame.

Fact is, if my role as a cc is negated, I am only welcome in parties as a courtesy for being such a nice guy (not to mention handsome in my pajamas).

I will still grind in or out of party, I will adjust to the mobs and will move on. This nerf does not solve the pvp issues that most anti-nukers really have at the heart of their agendas. This nerf doesn't just negatively affect nukers, but also the parties that they CC'd for.

Parties that did not rely on a CC'er will roll on and have the advantage. It's their turn to get a nod anyway so good for them. Will this bring more live-healers to the game? I think we all know better. But in the off-chance it does... and in the event that live healers are preffered over boxed toons, I am all for it.

But this isn't really just a nerf on nukers.

[Crawlerin]

It can make sense actually: previously they do not like him, because he wakes mobs.
Now they need to, intead of SC + kill one after one, kill those mobs without sleep. Which is where Warlord or any other AoE come in handy.

[nolerahl]

[ QUOTE ]
He's a warlord. He, too, has an AoE CC skill - but who needs AoE stun when you can have the oh-so-safe sleep cloud?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking to LC who plays a SH on erica.

not to tarun, who I didn't even post to tyvm.

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I even get a crit on such posts...

[/ QUOTE ]
Made me think of this thing: http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4015/mapleydforumskills8ps8xv3iy.gif

I can get pretty unclear sometimes when I just think "geez.." and hit that reply button primarily as a venting exercise and not considering someone is trying to like.. understand it.

But yes. It's not that complicated. C4 sleep = Sleepers telling me "plz don't use WL skills", hence I'm 90% dead weight. C5 sleep = I get to use aoe stun when we get adds.

[MalineII]

I really don't think anything about nuker PvP was fixed - I don't remember the last time I was asleep for longer than about one second in group PvP, and to be honest, in 1v1 PvP just not nerfing Aegis might have done the trick.

I'm actually not anti-nuker - I just don't like easy PvE. Maybe it's the way I level, but as a summoner I'm pretty much forced to solo or burn the whole of my pockets - and in that case, I don't have an emergency brake. I just have heal, a prayer, some GHPs and a BSoE if all else fails. It's pretty thrilling, and I think "easy-mode" PvE with just sleeps and assissts is lame as all hell. :D

If summoners had such a skill (and in my honour, I have protested idiotic things about my own class before - I remember saying something like "pet SS that double the damage would be overpowered in 1v1 PvP" ... and look what happened), I would definitely protest also. The nerf that hurts me most on summoners has gotten the least protest from me because I understand why our "ultimate emergency retreat" was removed: Sending your servitor off to die for you while sneaking to safety (admittedly with very little defense in an aggro area) was a bit too good.

I'm not for the sleep nerf because of what it means for nukers - it means a lot of bad things for summoners also, and for healers of course. I am for it because of what it means for parties.

I'm still anti-nuker though. :D I'm ticked off they keep getting new effects when I still heal like a level 7.

[GildranTheMighty]

Everyone is just so on edge about this sleep nerf. I think this just shows how dependant on pwnage we've become. =/

[Numenorean]

Cancel was the most absurd spell in the game and had to be nerfed. Sleep is useful, but no biggie that it's gone. Sorry you can't run through TOI alone sleeping everything now -- just like 99% of the rest of us. Summoners are who have a right to whine with "erase" wiping their only decent attack, not nukers.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
By way of slightly longer explanation: If all adds are slept, a warlord is like an elephant grazing amidst a precious collection of rare china/porcellaine (? the fragile stuff): A really bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
A really bad idea is not to do AoE parties if you have a Warlord.

[ QUOTE ]
If they can't be slept anyway, he can provide an AoE stun and of course howl and quicker clear-up in case of adds: In short, he can do his AoE job.

[/ QUOTE ]
In some of our pole partes I still need to use Sleep... because I don't have Silence :D

(WTB Trance SB :p)

[Headcrab]

To the guy that said now he'd have a hard time reaching his party who were all deep in a PvE zone: soon you'll be able to summon your party members. All summoners, including Necromancers, get this skill. Though pure summoners are a rare breed, there are plenty of C3/C4-Necro-rerolls so summoning shouldn't be a problem.

[_Meate_]

[ QUOTE ]
CC is not your job!

[/ QUOTE ]

Like hell it's not! Why give us the skill and then tell us it's not our job? Sorry tanks, it's not your job to hate the mobs. Sorry healers, it's not your job to restore HP. Sure, we are nukers, but because we also have CC abilities, it means that we are also CC. Man, I'm getting tired of all you guys saying we are this and that, and that we're not this and the other. We are what we are, and that is based on our skillset, not some description in the read-me guide.

Now, I know what you're going to say next: "In the beginning you were just nukers and you didn't have sleep, and that's how it should have stayed". Well, it didn't. NCSoft gave us a new skill and we've been using it for 2 years now. So ya, after 2 years it is now a part of us..it's what we do. We nuke, and we sleep. And now, we'll also be fearing mobs.

Having said all that, I am actually one of those nukers that actually prefers to party with people. My clan doesn't have a tank, but we fair well enough. The sleep nerf hits us hard, but we'll make do.

[Whisky]

[ QUOTE ]
To the guy that said now he'd have a hard time reaching his party who were all deep in a PvE zone: soon you'll be able to summon your party members. All summoners, including Necromancers, get this skill. Though pure summoners are a rare breed, there are plenty of C3/C4-Necro-rerolls so summoning shouldn't be a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]


thank you for response, i now have something to look forward to!!!!!
And wont' mind dying few times until i get higher lvl! :)

[Tarun]

[ QUOTE ]

A really bad idea is not to do AoE parties if you have a Warlord.


[/ QUOTE ]

Riddle me this. Say you're in a clan. No SE's are available. No WC's are available. Your clan says "hey we have a party going in xyz, anyone wanna come?". Do you just log because you can't aoe or do you join a normal party for normal xp?
This gets frustrating when you know you're a burden to the party because you can't use specials.

Being able to aoe all the time would be sweet. I can get 2% each buff round in ascetics assuming I have 5 free rooms, but I don't have a VR dualbox. No VR=No aoe.

I'm not here to complain about my class. I love my WL. But I've never been able to solo, I've never been able to pvp (unless you count stunning and letting the nukers kill), and I'm generally not the first guy to get picked for regular parties. This is why I feel moderately compelled to share my experiences with nukers who complain that they can't solo anymore.

[PameanWraith]

I hear you MalineII. But as a Sorc, I have no new skills this chronicle. I think basically between levels 58 and 75 there is nothing different about the sorc except the gear they can wear. Even upping thie skills is very very minimal in effect.

Not all nukers are Uber.

And as for the whole running through TOI thing. Let's remember the character balances inherent in all of us. As a silk-wearer I get a max-hp to death beatdown in mere moments. I have zero ability to beat on a mob with my weapons, pop potions and survive. My mana runs out faster than I bleed and then I have nothing at all. No armor, no pdef, no pattk. The balance inherent in my toon is and always has been tied directly to my skills. Yes, skills other classes don't have, because they also have attribute that my class lacks.

It's whack whack whack away at the skills leaving my class with yet again, no attributes and a shrinking array of skills. Healers and buffers have it worse, but are by definition, support classes.

So.... Any legit 70+ healers, buffers and tanks looking to party with a Sorc on Sieg?

[Headcrab]

Now that I think about it, this nerf definatly hits Sorcerers and Spellsingers more than Spellhowlers and Necromancers. At least we have Vampiric Claw and can somewhat tank the mobs if we get a ton of aggro.

[Biotox]

[ QUOTE ]
... this nerf definatly hits Sorcerers and Spellsingers more than Spellhowlers

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I almost never use sleep. In fact, I think the only time I ever use it are an opening pull to get setup in some area that has multi-HP mobs (3X or more). I think Curse Fear will serve the emergency purpose. I bought a vastly overpriced SB to test it out and it is about as fast as sleep and seems to work about as well. I'm just sad that I had to waste 2M SP to max out Curse Fear. I was saving that SP for when I really need it at level 76.

One area that will be interesting is Forge of the Gods. I bet there will be lots of equipment laying around down there.

[Thalenduros]

Cancel was over the top and needed a nerf... 5 buffs is correct and the spell is finally what it should have been.

Sleep shoud have been completely removed and our SP given back if they were going to do this... (or better yet, just swap it for the appropriate level of fear so we don't have to level up a level 40 alt to get our book) also... Warcriers and OL need their sleep similarly nerfed... right now sleeplock isn't dead.. it just moved to the orc mages.
Indeed it is more likely in buffed PvP now as mental shield is nerfed. Smart warcriers/OL auto-win where they have applicable mana.

Return sleeping cloud.
This is the single biggest nerf in the whole chronicle.
The spell was used in mass PvP, but due to its AoE nature, was easy to resist. I know of not a single mage who ever cast this spell in 1v1 PvP, and even if I had it back would never use it in 1v1 PvP due to its massive failure rate on single targets.

Increase the recast delay and thus the spell will require a tank to use safely. It can also be used as a last-ditch lifesaver if necessary. Sps and Sorc stock in groups goes upas tank support and control, tanks are still necessary and 1v1 PvP is unchanged...

While we are at it...
Sps and Sorc need their mana issues are looked at.
No one will group Sps/Sorc anymore... archers or daggers are insanely better in every way due to their mana efficiency.
How? Two-pronged approach incoming...
1) Fix Damage over time spells/skills (for everyone) to be mana efficient! They should do greater than bsps-nuke level damage over time. Reduce the mana cost by a significant margin.
2) Fix MEN as it applies to mana regen. -8 MEN should mean a LOT more than 50 mana per hour lost. Mages should be choosing between endurance on the battle field and short term power just like melee do. Buff MEN's effect on mana regen at 25+ MEN and scale up. While you are at it, fix the Spellsinger mana regen spell. Remove the reagent cost and make it a % function of your current regen. If your MEN sucks, your return on this spell will too...

Add an overhit for Sorc at the same level as the elves get it...
Make it earth based... I can't imagine who is hurt by this...

Fix mages... don't leave them half a class like they are now.

[EllieBelly]

No I did use sleep a lot, yes I had a healer but it was dual boxed so I had to rely on vamp claw and corpse life drain for my HP, not a slow SE that I couldn't switch over to and back in time. (two clients one machine)

Really the short of it is adapt, we're offensive mages, the defensive stuff was given to others.

[Sovrath]

I've taken to using "Slow" now as my life saving skill. Not perfect at all but I slow the extras and can outrun as I kite the group.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A really bad idea is not to do AoE parties if you have a Warlord.


[/ QUOTE ]
Riddle me this. Say you're in a clan. No SE's are available. No WC's are available. Your clan says "hey we have a party going in xyz, anyone wanna come?". Do you just log because you can't aoe or do you join a normal party for normal xp?
This gets frustrating when you know you're a burden to the party because you can't use specials.

[/ QUOTE ]
You still can do damage. When Spellsinger has no dedicated recharger and no crowd control skills, they could be even more useless to the group than you are because of their MP management problems.

[ QUOTE ]
Being able to aoe all the time would be sweet. I can get 2% each buff round in ascetics assuming I have 5 free rooms, but I don't have a VR dualbox.
No VR=No aoe.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever tried to do pole groups with BD and Bishop/EE? It may be somewhat worse XP, but it is definitely more fun.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not here to complain about my class. I love my WL. But I've never been able to solo, I've never been able to pvp (unless you count stunning and letting the nukers kill), and I'm generally not the first guy to get picked for regular parties. This is why I feel moderately compelled to share my experiences with nukers who complain that they can't solo anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not that Spellsingers could solo much better than you before that. Without an SE pet, that is.

[C4t]

Guys, let's face reality :( : no one want us (SpSingers) in party because of our mana fast consumption due to slow regeneration.
The only reason why ppl partied us before "was" our ability to control mobs with sleep. Now, C5 deprived us of this unique advantage.
So, go and hunt solo, you can say.
"But" we cannot even solo, for the same reason, that is without sleep fast casting possibility, every 2 mobs that aggro us, we die.
So, what is the solution? Isn't it that SpSingers are completely done?
*sob* i liked my nucky, she was so lovely, i'll miss her forever.

Lovin

[Abisha]

hmm what i dont understand if Mages where not crow control why do they have level xx of sleep in their skill tree while a SE only got level 9 of sleep???
they sud have MADE all class's harder to sleep instant of killing sleep,, do sleep mods also have this negitive bonus????

[EllieBelly]

Make friends with an SE? I got all kinds of exp on my SE partying with grateful SPSs( (before I had one) even before the nerf.

[ChaosDragon]

I can't believe everyone whose crying about the sleep nerf. Mages were intended to have the highest damage output which you already do, not God-like specimens. They have given everyone a fair advantage now instead of everyone over-using the sleep/nuke style of play. Melee's have had to deal with nukers laughing at us from every aspect because as soon as we start moving towards you..SLEEP! Now you have to use a different playstyle instead just like everyone else has.

Try being a melee and fighting a nuker and you will see how unfair it is. We had no advantage when PvP'ing because of sleep. Blessed spirishots made it almost inevitable that a melee stood no chance whatsoever.

Go to your nearest arena to pvp and you will find 95% of nukers using the same sleep/nuke tactics over and over again. Now that you've suddenly come back down to earth and are kill-able, you people start to complain. Suck it up and learn to play with it just like everyone else has with their classes.

[Dreadhelm]

It looks like nukers will now have to adjust their playstyles like the rest of us had to. No more two man parties xping all day and owning everything. Can you not still two shot mobs though?

I guess you will have to relearn party mechanics and add different classes to your old "special" parties. If all else fails get in a pole party where if you slept mobs you would tick off the polers. I would think that the challenges imposed on you would excite most as you have to learn and grow in your tactics and playstyle. That or do what most of you did in C4 and reroll to another class. I would urge you not to take the easy road, but to learn how to adapt.

Adaptability/Flexibility is a great skill to have in your tool box. Melee style toons had to learn to do this over the last chronicle and now you will have to as well. As much as you may hate it I say good riddance. Now you will have to learn to play the game effectively and learn how to party. You had it easy for a whole chronicle, welcome to the pain the rest of us felt.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
without sleep fast casting possibility, every 2 mobs that aggro us, we die.
So, what is the solution? Isn't it that SpSingers are completely done?

[/ QUOTE ]
Come on, if an EE can kill these 2 mobs with MoH only (if they are undead, of course), why can't you do the same with Aura Flare (plus Hydroblast, Solar Flare and the rest of your arsenal)?

[C4t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
without sleep fast casting possibility, every 2 mobs that aggro us, we die.
So, what is the solution? Isn't it that SpSingers are completely done?

[/ QUOTE ]
Come on, if an EE can kill these 2 mobs with MoH only (if they are undead, of course), why can't you do the same with Aura Flare (plus Hydroblast, Solar Flare and the rest of your arsenal)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let those 2 mobs be stunning type (see Orcs in Aden cemetery f.i.) and i tell you what i do with my other skills, without sleepin possibility.

[MalineII]

Because auraflare is mana inefficient.

Did you not get the memo? Using MP inefficient spells to save your life is out of the question.

[GildranTheMighty]

Just like stunshotting in PvE is a no no. Can;t tell you how many times I've saved myself and others with a stunshot. But since I lost about 30 seconds of time, it's a no no.


And you nukers think you have it bad with stun mobs... *cough* You get a free +4 CON. My CON on my PR is 20. You know what 20 CON means? It means I better kill before I get killed.

I have no CC skills to speak of, Freezing Strike doesn't land well without BSPS, and Power Break is minimally useful when you only have just over 1.5k HP at 55 anyway. You STILL have sleep, you STILL have Sleeping Could. It's just not an emergency skill anymore. You know what your emergency skills are now? Fear, slow, curse: weakness, frost bolt, and even curse death link (Yes, if your HP is low pop that off and boom, no more damage dealing mob zomg.)

[PameanWraith]

Adaptability/flexibility is what's needed. And of course what most nukers will employ. Some may grow frustrated and reroll.

The notion of befriending an SE is nice. I sure would like to, but finding active SE's that haven't been snatched up by the Uber clans already is... well let's just say it takes a special breed of player to be satisfied as an SE main and that rariry mixed with the huge alliances on Sieg leaves little to no SE's wandering the plains awaiting my friendship.

But just in case.. PM me, ok???

Heck another thread is complaining about SE nerfs and I imagine they'll be even less numerous than in C4.

I said it over and over, the whiners and arena adicts will kill this class. We aren't dead yet, but we've just been wheeled into ICU. I hope those of you who cried for this nerf are going to put a Sorc or Sps into your parties. Then again, I think balance was never really the desire and invitations will not be forthcoming.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Come on, if an EE can kill these 2 mobs with MoH only (if they are undead, of course), why can't you do the same with Aura Flare (plus Hydroblast, Solar Flare and the rest of your arsenal)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let those 2 mobs be stunning type (see Orcs in Aden cemetery f.i.) and i tell you what i do with my other skills, without sleepin possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]
EE of this level can kill 2 aggroed groups of 3 stunners each in DV, and it is not that Resist Shock 2 really helps against mobs' stuns, or Shield 3 gives more that 15% PDef bonus.

So just drink a HP and spam Aura Flare, and you will be fine. Ice Dagger on one mob and AF on another, then switch to the first one could be even less boring.

[C4t]

I found aura flare not sufficient to kill 2 or 3 strong type mobs stunning you in turn, the only real life saver in that case was sleeping cloud, but we all know what this skill has become now.
That is my experience, at least.
Lovin

[Killbourne]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe everyone whose crying about the sleep nerf. Mages were intended to have the highest damage output which you already do, not God-like specimens. They have given everyone a fair advantage now instead of everyone over-using the sleep/nuke style of play. Melee's have had to deal with nukers laughing at us from every aspect because as soon as we start moving towards you..SLEEP! Now you have to use a different playstyle instead just like everyone else has.

Try being a melee and fighting a nuker and you will see how unfair it is. We had no advantage when PvP'ing because of sleep. Blessed spirishots made it almost inevitable that a melee stood no chance whatsoever.

Go to your nearest arena to pvp and you will find 95% of nukers using the same sleep/nuke tactics over and over again. Now that you've suddenly come back down to earth and are kill-able, you people start to complain. Suck it up and learn to play with it just like everyone else has with their classes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you even reading what they have been saying...

They are talking about PVE. NOT PVP.

Im not a nuker but my gf is. We wanted to go exploring and checking out all the new areas mostly the noob spots just to see what new mobs there are and new types of terrain. Needless to say she went into the Arch Lab with all the golems which are blue to us... But they are like 3-4 grp mobs and they have so much HP that she couldn't kill them without her dieing really fast.

Yes the Nukers were designed to be able to kill EVERYONE in PVP....But they are also able to be killed by everyone. In saying that I think the sleep in pvp is ok now...But in PVE when we just wanna play together (im an SR), you all are saying tough luck...how discrimnatory are you?

We play the game for fun! Just something for my gf and I to do together when its raining or if we are bored. Now we have to get an SE or Tank you say...thats pretty ******ed.

Not to mention when a sps is in a necro grp and has a tank and the tank gets maybe two or three mobs, sure np u can figure something out, but what if and more like when a TH,PW,BH come running through with a huge train. Before she could protect us from getting trained. Which was great and you could blabber on about how the tank can throw hate aura then UD and the healer heals but thats not how it works and everybody knows that cuz as soon as it does that trainer has already pulled another room ontop of your party eventually u run outta mp or u run back to GK and maybe only the tank gets killed, then drops his NM helmet :mad:

How ******ed is that???

I like the sleep nerf in PVP, but not in PVE

/signed

[PameanWraith]

Jealousy replaced practicality a long time ago.

[SithMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
Adaptability/flexibility

[/ QUOTE ]

Then again, there are VERY few nukers from the Prelude days who actually understand how far they were boosted.

SPS in Prelude was an AWFUL class with miserable exp rates.

Then things started changing

Sleep
Blessed
Empower/Zerk/Mystic stacking
Acumen SAs

and suddenly the class became the FOTM reroll train. Old nukers loved going from awful to godlike, and new nukers are the same people that rerolled C2 daggers to be cool and tough. The sleep cloud skill replaced tanking! Nobody partied a tank, a BD could run up, pull aggro on half a TOI 10 floor, and then just keep it slept from a SORC while you kill everything. I'm VERY glad they nerfed mages CC ability (its unnecessary, though I prefer it was just a sleep lasts 8 seconds change).

[Noil]

im very glad they nerfed nukers too. they are far to powerful and are now crying because they cant solo, well join the club, lvl 5x Warlord

[PameanWraith]

With all due respect, I don't think you've heard nukers cry about the soloing aspect. Those nukers (SpS and Sorc) who have naturally lousy MP management have just lost their ability to party.

But as I said, we'll adjust overcome or reroll. It's not just the nukers that are going to pay ofr this nerf, it's also the parties that used to have nuker CCs.

[SithMaster]

Crowd control was taken from healers/tanks by sleep cloud. It still works fine in large pulls with a tank...you just can't do it without hate aura. Good change.

[Mortova]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont want to share my XP with a tank, i duo just great with my SE friend, we didint need this BS nerf.


[/ QUOTE ]

I literally fell off my chair laughing at this....ok well maybe i just laughed.

[PameanWraith]

Yes this does turn out to be a good boost for healers. Question is, will people start playing live healers or add to the problem that we shall not utter?

[Thalenduros]

C5 has not changed my solo one iota...
2 nuke for 2 minutes
Stand around for 10...

Can't solo? Bull...
Paladins are better at solo however. (Kill slower, but forever)

Find an SE/EE? Where? They are all in Archer groups clearing entire dungeons of 4x/5x mobs... why would they bother with your piddly damage output?

C5 has comepletely closed all doors for Sorc and Sps to get groups.

-Buffed archers and dagges are far more efficient and are almost as good at burst damage as spellsingers yet they can sustain it insanely longer.
-Sps and Sorc offer NOTHING to a group that other classes do not and they suck at mana managment.

Finally....
(actually a good thing)
Mages now have no special PvP abilties other than damage and archers and daggers are better at it by a long shot.

Daggers, Archers, knights, and pretty much everyone with a STUN ability has at least a 50/50 shot to kill a mage even if they get the first shot.

Funny killing nukers in droves 1v1 with a paladin...

The new FoTM are:
Daggers
Archers
Warcrier
Paladin

Grats on your new FoTM and your impending nerfs.

[Junta]

I can not beleave they nerfed are ONLY form of PVP Defense in SPS. like hell they gave tanks skills to resist sleep why did they have to make it so we die trying to cast it, and most likely will not hit now if we some how make it

[SithMaster]

Mental Aegis was nerfed, it lands much more.

[Lord Chaos]

Before we had sleep? eh?

Btw, if you want to cpmpare to the past, then back then mobs moved slower, did not have the kind of special attacks they do today, stun mobs were rarer, etc.

[Lord Chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
It can make sense actually: previously they do not like him, because he wakes mobs.
Now they need to, intead of SC + kill one after one, kill those mobs without sleep. Which is where Warlord or any other AoE come in handy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh ok, I thought he was using sleep somehow and wasn't welcome because he had it.

[Lord Chaos]

Mages do not have "easy mode" PvE, except at the more extreme ends.

And thats exactly the problem now, in the past nukers powers raised exponentially the more they got (heals, buffs, better weapons, etc.), now all this sleep nerf has done is break the curve AT THE BOTTOM. The strong nukers won't really be affected so much, they're more than strong enough and have OOP healers to pound through whatever comes their way. Its the "little guy" nuker that gets screwed the most.

Btw, you've always told us how wonderful your summoner is and that you can be just about anything, so hey, maybe its you that has the "easy PvE" ;)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm ticked off they keep getting new effects when I still heal like a level 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nukers don't get additional heals either :p

[Thalenduros]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes this does turn out to be a good boost for healers. Question is, will people start playing live healers or add to the problem that we shall not utter?

[/ QUOTE ]

No... it takes a special kind of person to play a healer in Lin2as a main...

Kinda like playing goalie in hockey...
(You WANT to be the guy getting 70+ MPH worth of hard rubber shot at you all day?)

They nerf you even when it is nowhere near necessary.
Even when you start to get even the smallest iota of "fun" they nerf it.

Can anyone think of even the smallest reason why they nerfed bows in the hands of an EE/SE/bishop/Prophet?

[SithMaster]

Root/shoot step out of range to heal back up

Healers need a genuine pvp boost, or rather, dd's need a genuine pvp hit. Overall, reducing all pvp damage by 50% would be a great change. A nuker would lose 400 damage a shot, and a healer would lose 50. Those heals would also counter damage.

PVP damage has simply gotten out of hand.

[Thalenduros]

[ QUOTE ]
Mental Aegis was nerfed, it lands much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually true... but "much more" is now 1 in 6.
This is much worse is they are also wearing Nightmare.

If any player playing ANY class cannot walk up to you and kill you in the 12-20 seconds its gonna take to actually get someone slept, (provided no one is hitting you) they deserve much more than to be slept.

Sleep is dead in pretty much everything for everyone but priests and orcs from opportunity cost alone.

[SithMaster]

1/6 is bull. With MA 4 I was getting slept 1/3 at the derby. With MA 4 and Wisdom you might make 1/6. Nor does it take near that long to cast sleep on an SPS (3 seconds sleep, 5 seconds sleep cloud). It must really suck to be at a siege and sleepcloud on 50 players at a gateway with two sps and watch 10 members get taken out of the fight for 30 seconds...not to mention jam up the doorway. Oh yeah sleep is useless.

[Ellisande]

[ QUOTE ]
1/6 is bull. With MA 4 I was getting slept 1/3 at the derby. With MA 4 and Wisdom you might make 1/6. Nor does it take near that long to cast sleep on an SPS (3 seconds sleep, 5 seconds sleep cloud).

[/ QUOTE ]

I call bull on your bull. 3 second cast? 5 second cast? What chronicle are you playing in, c4? And what about these 1/3 numbers. I could maybe see that on a dwarf. But even from my own pvp experience, I can't get numbers that pretty using bsps on an even leveled target when we are self buffed.

On the other hand, the PVP tournament footage does essentially prove the 1/3 probability, but that is a special case witht he hgihest level of characters using S grade equipment liekly sith Sas, essentially that is a set which the average player does not have access ot any of, either level or weapon.

[Thalenduros]

[ QUOTE ]

Healers need a genuine pvp boost, or rather, dd's need a genuine pvp hit. Overall, reducing all pvp damage by 50% would be a great change. A nuker would lose 400 damage a shot, and a healer would lose 50. Those heals would also counter damage.

PVP damage has simply gotten out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, damage over time does indeed... buff stacking indeed.

Level 78 Vortexes hit for 600 and crit for 1200 2% of the time on fully buffed opponents...

Mage damage is pitiful compared to Archers critting for 7k.
(Its the cast speed that is out of hand...)

The simplest and most balanced change is to limit how many buffs can stack on the same stat.

Have Acumen and berzerk? Then Hot springs malaria doesn't help you as much.
Have Crit damage dance and Death Whisper? Then Warlock buff doesn't help you as much.

PvP damage by 50% would make it so a mage would NEVER be able to kill a destroyer due to running out of mana before the Destroyer dies. You'd have to halve mana costs as well.

Frankly, something must change... as it stands mages are pointless "gotta solo to 75 so I can sub to a real class" characters.

[Thalenduros]

[ QUOTE ]
1/6 is bull. With MA 4 I was getting slept 1/3 at the derby. With MA 4 and Wisdom you might make 1/6. Nor does it take near that long to cast sleep on an SPS (3 seconds sleep, 5 seconds sleep cloud).


[/ QUOTE ]

We will use your numbers for average cast time just to make you happy.
Sleep does indeed cast in roughly 3 seconds given 600 cast speed and bsps.

3 x 6 tries (my numbers) is 18 seconds...
3 x 3 tries (your numbers)is 9 seconds...
I said 12-20 seconds... my quick numbers were pretty danged close even by your numbers.

1 in 3 is not how things work for those of us not 78 yet... perhaps youd like to test with your mage and show us 1 in 3.
I'll log mine in... you log yours in.

Anyways... count 9 seconds the next time you PvP... I bet you can run up root, stun, and UD long before the mage actually manages to sleep you. PvP fights are OVER before you finish the first 3 second cast. (no one may be dead yet, but the stage is set, and the conclusion is long since decided.)

If the first sleep doesn't land (33% by your numbers) then you have 6 seconds before you do ANYTHING in the fight. After 6 seconds my PTS paladin has you dead to rights unless you paralyzed me. Thats one of the worst DPS classes in the game... Daggers would have you dead before the first sleep was done...

[ QUOTE ]

It must really suck to be at a siege and sleepcloud on 50 players at a gateway with two sps and watch 10 members get taken out of the fight for 30 seconds...not to mention jam up the doorway. Oh yeah sleep is useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try it please... 4 of 10 people get slept and then those 4 are woken up by scrolls or just by getting swatted. Even with 2 Sps casting it, there will still be 1 or 2 that resist.

You need to practice your PvP more Luke... Sleep cloud was useful before, but never held anyone down for 30 seconds.
You slow down 40-60% of the targets for a few seconds, and then the rest wake them up. You see, if you had ever cast sleep cloud and had any experience with it at all, you would know that the spell suffers from the same problem as all AoE spells... lowered hit rate....

/sigh considering I had to teach you how to use a simple SA that worked 50% of the time, I am not surprised I have to teach you group PvP tactics either.

How is it possible to get to 7x levels and not know how to defend against sleep or sleeping cloud?

Our clannies type zzzz or say something in vent... we wake them up...
Yours just stand there with a little white ball over their head I suppose...

Against 10 skilled people, sleepcloud lasts MAYBE a few seconds. Against my clan groups it lasts just over 1 second as we have plenty of practice against this tactic and we all carry waking scrolls.

Practice in a group... soon sleepcloud is little more than a good excuse to use some of the 5484385484384339289797824982379247934 waking scrolls you get while grinding.

I honestly hope you and your clan aren't half as bad at this game as you claim to be Luke.

[SithMaster]

What part about this don't you get?

SLEEP IS NOT A 100% WIN BUTTON.

There, nice big capital letters for you. If you sleep at the end of a fight and it lands, you can end a fight with full hp. In mass pvp, while people scramble to target their clannies and wake scroll, they also have to stop attacking you...meaning you effectively stop ALL of their members from fighting for a brief instant. If you spend 10 seconds (two sps) to stop 50 people from fighting for 5 seconds, you've made a huge difference in combat! 10 people? In a party vs party do you all stand on top of eachother? I'm talking about the gateway in a siege here. You should not have a skill which lands more than 50% and causes so much of a problem for everyone...while also dealing 1k+ per nuke on a target without 3 specific buffs to your magic type. That's overpowered. You have to carry 7-8 buffs to counter mages...and you've still got the problem of mass range assisting on targets.

5 people nuke while 5 targets run at them, they kill 2 targets before they arrive. Now you have 5 to 3 odds...I don't care if that paladin can rip you apart, they've already lost the numbers game, and the time it takes for that to happen will allow the nukers to continue assisting to destroy the targets.

The ranged advantage is still totally there, mages have only slightly been pvp weakened, but immensely pve weakned for the nuker/se combo. GOOD

And I am no pvp fool, I am a 100% archer user for mass pvp. I make and design combat around seperating enemies for mass archer parties with pimped out offense buffs to rip through. I am well aware how bad the class is broken, but the fact they need fixing as well does not justify your being overpowered too. In the mean time, get over it. It happened, you got nerfed despite all the bytching and it isn't going away. Deal with it and adapt.

[SithMaster]

[ QUOTE ]

I call bull on your bull. 3 second cast? 5 second cast?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sleep does indeed cast in roughly 3 seconds given 600 cast speed and bsps.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for playin, have a nice day.

[TheIronGolem]

honestly I agree the sleep doesn;t hurt met much as a archmage lvl 77 and an SE dual box I can pretty much stay active with walking. Solo I still kill the same mobs I did c4. Grped now??? lol yeah I grp with a bunch of Storm Screamers between the 3 of them 1 SE can keep them charged while I need a dual boed one just to keep up. But we don;t use sleep we don;t use a tank in c5. Sleep hurts the lvl 68 Sorc and Sps who don;t have the dual box and trust me one time I had 15 _25 Se's on my firendslist now they are never online. hmmm
Sleep nerf needed for pvp
Killed a class that lots of ppl whined abo8ut so gg.
PPl say my dmg output is to high? lol with similar lvl PW dealing 9k dmg to robe users and similar archers dealing 10k to robe users, lol you guys just complained that we were equal. I feel sry for the nukers who rolled later inthe game because it was a class they liked. Soon you'll here things like lol sps or lol sorc around town.


Oh wait you already do.
/end whine session

[Ellisande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I call bull on your bull. 3 second cast? 5 second cast?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sleep does indeed cast in roughly 3 seconds given 600 cast speed and bsps.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for playin, have a nice day.

[/ QUOTE ]

After extensive testing, the numbers I have are:

Sleep: 5.5 second cast. Sleeping Cloud 8 to 8.5 second cast. More than enough time for the mob I need slept or a player to do me in. Have a nice day.

[Ferine]

The nerf is totally over the top I agree, but there is fear to replace it, which does also have a good role in PvE.

Orc mystics have been put back as buffing / healing classes by totally destroying their drain (+30% MP on drain, instant heal on HOP), it gives them back the purpose as crowd control and healer.

[Zeus747]

The nerf is perfect. It allows the tank class to execute its main job in parties now (crowd control) and in PVP allows other classes in PVP to shine. Learn to adapt. Those that fail to adapt will fall behind. The cream will rise to the top and that is the way it should be.

Edit: It also allows other classes to use their crowd control abilities as well. The point of a balanced game PVE and PVP is that everyone has value to a party and not be dead weight. As has been mentioned a warlord is pretty much dead weight if sleep is heavily used. Now they should be a big part of a party. If people want to XP safer they have to sacrifice some Xp and party up a tank (the horror). If you want to keep the XP yourself take the gamble.

[EvilTreerat]

All I can say...

BWAHAHAHAAH! HARDCORE GAMERS MY [censored]!

Welcome to learning what every DAoC caster, WoW mage/warlock, and EQ wizard that wasn't power-leveled learned by the halfway point in levels. Its really simple; think instead of just keep mashing the "I win" button.

If you want to keep up soloing in PvE, how about learning to body-pull and use things like slow and fear instead of sleep/nuke/sleep/nuke? Maybe you could go ask the "carebear" Shadowknights and Necromancers of EQ about fear kiting since this chronicle just gave you access to fear? Try it some time - pull a critter out of a room, fear it while you face the corner you want it buried in, then nuke the daylights out of it while its helpless.

Of course I doubt many nukers truly will bother to learn new methods. They've been spoiled by two expansions of "uberness." First they'll whine, throw temper tantrums, and generally make themselves look even more pathetic to people with precious little reason to have any sympathy for them. Then when it becomes clear that nothing is going to change some might take the time to explore their abilities - the rest will hop to the current flavor-of-the-month until that gets nerfed.

[PameanWraith]

lol, it's always funny when a person's post forces you to imagine a psty chubby dude in tightie-whities doing a victory dance in his mom's basement.

But I digress....

Not only is my sleep useless in critical situations, I have found that my nukes are doing less damage. 2 shot blues and greens are now 3 shot blues and greens 9and yes that is with bsps) so now I am also effectively 1/3 additionally mana-gimped.

I guess the upside is that I can finally stop hearing MalineII and other Nuker haters crying about how fast we are able to XP solo (and by solo they usually mean with full buffs and an oop recharger which in the realm of common sense negates the term SOLO).

I'd feel calm knowing that archers may get the next scrutinization but some chest-beater will lose to a mage in the arena and the crying will start again.

[Zeus747]

I do not remember seeing any of the spellsinger or sorceror nukes nerfed in the official patch notes. Can you provide a link or proof please?

[PameanWraith]

.....
Same mobs I was hunting on Tuesday, 2 shots. Tonight 3 shots. Feel free to accuse me of being a liar to this community since that's what your post is saying if you will. I'll be happy to stand on my reputation. Pardon me if I wasn't expecting a change in damage and had a set od dame screenshots pre-c5 awaiting your personal perusal and comparison.

[afkanddead]

imo I am with everyone else and I am the usual guy saying nukers are too powerful. Increase cast speed pve keep same pvp I dont think anyone would have a disagreement with this.

[Zeus747]

[ QUOTE ]
.....
Same mobs I was hunting on Tuesday, 2 shots. Tonight 3 shots. Feel free to accuse me of being a liar to this community since that's what your post is saying if you will. I'll be happy to stand on my reputation. Pardon me if I wasn't expecting a change in damage and had a set od dame screenshots pre-c5 awaiting your personal perusal and comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very defensvie considering I am asking very little in return. I did not say you were wrong but you have jumped to a conclusion it seems.

[ QUOTE ]
imo I am with everyone else and I am the usual guy saying nukers are too powerful. Increase cast speed pve keep same pvp I dont think anyone would have a disagreement with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

No...no...no.

Tanks have been neglected long enough. And a warlord in this thread was crying tears of joy being able to use his skills in a party.

[PameanWraith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.....
Same mobs I was hunting on Tuesday, 2 shots. Tonight 3 shots. Feel free to accuse me of being a liar to this community since that's what your post is saying if you will. I'll be happy to stand on my reputation. Pardon me if I wasn't expecting a change in damage and had a set od dame screenshots pre-c5 awaiting your personal perusal and comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I told you my experience. You asked for proof. That means that you are calling me a liar... unless of course you are suggesting I am insane. Again, in eaither case, believe me or not, I am surely not the only nuker experiencing this.

Had the effects been at one location, I would surmise that they made a change to that mob. But Beast farm, FoD and Hotsprings all had the same effect... my spells are less effective in all the mobs I fought in all three areas. And yes, I checked, the only thing unequipped with the chronicle change was my monocle.

Edit: Add Blazing Swamp to the list. Some mobs were 3 shots and stayed as three shots but changed from Prominence+Prominence+AuraBolt to 3xProminence. Loss of mana there. Some three shots on upper BS went from 3 shots to 4 shots. And I am wearing robes, and sleep takes forever to cast. Remember that when you try convincing people that nukers still have a cakewalk.

[SithMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I call bull on your bull. 3 second cast? 5 second cast?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sleep does indeed cast in roughly 3 seconds given 600 cast speed and bsps.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for playin, have a nice day.

[/ QUOTE ]

After extensive testing, the numbers I have are:

Sleep: 5.5 second cast. Sleeping Cloud 8 to 8.5 second cast. More than enough time for the mob I need slept or a player to do me in. Have a nice day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try an acumen SA and an acumen pot...oh and put your robes back on (last part was added for humor)

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, it's always funny when a person's post forces you to imagine a psty chubby dude in tightie-whities doing a victory dance in his mom's basement.


[/ QUOTE ]
I hate you now. :mad:

[WaRpZnEwt]

this is an olympiad fix for mage vs non mage.

I saw why this was needed as a Sagitarious Mystic Muse faced off with the Sagitarious never getting a single shot/hit off due to being chain slept. The only way to balance the olympiad in this case was to significantly increase sleep casting time or simply remove it. To be blunt if you XP somewhere where you HAVE to have CC to survive you shouldn't be there.

In the olympiad you do not get any sleep resistance unless wearing nightmare/boss jewels or metal shield weapon (which mages and elves can only casts on themselfs anyways)

[MalineII]

Well, this wouldn't be the first "invisible nerf" NCSoft's put down on people, so I'm honestly not surprised you're 3-shotting. :p I'm not, by the way, a mage hater in particular - I'm a damage-dealer and crowd control hater, meaning I think the fights should be slower and more exciting.

Mental Aegis self-buffs can be used by using things like charging up (confirmed by a gladiator in C4), so pretty much every class can use them. It shouldn't be necessary, though.

There is never a reason to mess with things like cast speed for such a specific nerf, I still think it's good though. It's ridiculous that a "glass cannon" character can charge 20 mobs and pull out on top, when a tank can not.

[Lyds]

[ QUOTE ]
this is an olympiad fix for mage vs non mage.

I saw why this was needed as a Sagitarious Mystic Muse faced off with the Sagitarious never getting a single shot/hit off due to being chain slept. The only way to balance the olympiad in this case was to significantly increase sleep casting time or simply remove it. To be blunt if you XP somewhere where you HAVE to have CC to survive you shouldn't be there.

In the olympiad you do not get any sleep resistance unless wearing nightmare/boss jewels or metal shield weapon (which mages and elves can only casts on themselfs anyways)

[/ QUOTE ]

Warped, i love you but everyone can cast mental shield in the olympiad - even those with no "magic" skills all have blessing of nobelesse.

[Exello]

[ QUOTE ]
All I can say...

BWAHAHAHAAH! HARDCORE GAMERS MY [censored]!

Welcome to learning what every DAoC caster, WoW mage/warlock, and EQ wizard that wasn't power-leveled learned by the halfway point in levels. Its really simple; think instead of just keep mashing the "I win" button.

If you want to keep up soloing in PvE, how about learning to body-pull and use things like slow and fear instead of sleep/nuke/sleep/nuke? Maybe you could go ask the "carebear" Shadowknights and Necromancers of EQ about fear kiting since this chronicle just gave you access to fear? Try it some time - pull a critter out of a room, fear it while you face the corner you want it buried in, then nuke the daylights out of it while its helpless.

Of course I doubt many nukers truly will bother to learn new methods. They've been spoiled by two expansions of "uberness." First they'll whine, throw temper tantrums, and generally make themselves look even more pathetic to people with precious little reason to have any sympathy for them. Then when it becomes clear that nothing is going to change some might take the time to explore their abilities - the rest will hop to the current flavor-of-the-month until that gets nerfed.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I'm a nuker (a 60+ sps) so I know exactly how these guys feel. Your sweeping generalizations about nukers in general are trash. Plain and simple. I personally took the time before c5 ever came out to stop using sleep, and adapt to how I would feel without it when it was no longer useful. It has become exceedingly difficult to deal with more than one mob at a time. No, I don't mean 20+ mobs, I mean TWO or more. Fear helps a bit, but then have to chase down the mob I used it on, which can lead to more unwanted aggro.

As for your suggestion about fearing a mob into a corner....that's total trash as well. Where does a nuker hunt solo that has corners? At 60 I was hunting shamans in FP, and there's not anything CLOSE to a corner out there. As a matter of fact, since nukers can't solo catas effectively, it's not plausible to find a spot with corners to use. Sounds to me like you've never had a nuker past the second job transfer, and are just talking about something you know nothing about.

As for PvP, I take the other side of this arguement. Something had to be done about the over-reliance of nukers on sleep. For all of you nukers whining about being "gimped" now that sleep is gone, you're very wrong. It's actually a CHALLENGE now, but very possible for you to win. My SpS can still throw off his other spells fast enough to kill lots of people before they get to me. Keep in mind that all nukers have some form of slow. For me, it's my Ice spells. I've yet to have any REAL trouble with daggers, since most of them gimp their HP with tats. This means that my big damage burns up their smaller HP pool even faster. So now nukers have to rely on what makes them nukers: Big damage in a short time.

Something more effective than fear would have been nice for PvE, but I don't mind losing sleep for PvP.

They're not gimped, nor are they as massively overpowered as they were before.

Oh, btw, about the mobs having more HP, I've seen some evidence of SOME mobs that seem to be a bit tougher, but my spells still hit as hard as they always have. Not sure what the dea with that is. I'd like to see some notes from NC on that one, so I know just what to watch out for. I don't need to lose any % to unexpected patch changes.

[WaRpZnEwt]

hehe i hadn't thought of that but thats a bummer to have to spend money on another weapon :(

[MalineII]

If you think you MIGHT draw adds, use sleep as an opener - it casts slow, but it works out.

[Exello]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you MIGHT draw adds, use sleep as an opener - it casts slow, but it works out.

[/ QUOTE ]

In theory: yes. In practice: not always.

1) If there are 3 or more, you still can only take 1 out of the picture first. Not the real issue, but just a thought.

2) If they step toward you while you're committed to that uber long cast, and aggro you during it, it's out of the window. May as well try to spam fear and run.

Works well on non-aggro, social mobs that come in pairs =P

[Maitreya]

Ok so here it goes:

Sleep needed to be nerfed in PvP. I agree that in 1v1 pvp chain nuke sleeping was ******ed and had to be dealt with. Mass PvP usually archers, nukers, etc. all target one target and just hit it causing death and to sleep would be stupid.

No matter what a nuker could not pull 20 mobs. To think so is simply over exageration and trying to increase your stand point on making your points more valid. It takes 6 mobs to hit a nuker once, each time to kill it.

Using sleep first is a semi-viable option. Although doing sleep cloud could mean instant death if the sleep is resisted, and yes it happens!

In a party with a tank, BD, and prophet spellsingers and even sorcerers can still do semi crowd control. As the tank hates you can take the 3 seconds (if using acumen setup) or what have you and cast sleep cloud to reduce damage taken to the tank.

What sleep nerf does destroy is this simple fact, and this fact makes the nerf poorly thought out:

1.) It destroyes the capability for small groups that can't find a tank to hunt. (Not many people play tanks, esspecially at higher lvls). For example a SpS, Gladiator, and SE can not go party in forest of the dead or some place with close grouped mobs.

2.) It destroys the ability to "solo" which is never really soloing because you will have a buffer with you. But anyway, this hurts players that wanted a more solo playstyle. Since a game should be designed to benifit players of many styles this was a bad move on the developers part. But another bad move was making soloing much more faster than partying to lvl up (usually).

Imo, if you are doing arena battles a fully buffed SpS with dance of concentration...you will still be slept in about 1 second. So it won't change PvP that much, and with the nerf to mental ageis it is even more rediculas.

How to fix the sleep nerf:

You can either return sleep to it's normal speed while lowering it's landing rate on Player Characters. Or you can return the cast speed to it's normal rate and reduce the regen time on sleep (but this can be abused by waiting to nuke until sleep has recharged) So the best viable option would be the first.

Sleep was a pvp problem. It wasn't a PvE problem. What the truth is hiding from is this game dosn't reward players with better experience for grouping (again, generally).

If players want to solo, and maybe picked a nuker type class because they want to solo more than group, for which ever reason such as time constraints, social preferance, ect. They should be able to. To take away the solo ability of a character and say it is fair is ludicriss in thought, and taking away ones freedom of choice within the game, do you want to be on that thought pattern like many others in history....hmm...I would hope not!

[wasterx]

Nukes havent been nerfed,what has changed however, is mobs attributes have been revamped.

Mobs which used to have no attributes now have"slightly high mdef, slightly weak mdef"etc, etc.

This probably accounts for the change from 3-2 shot .

Some mobs are now easier to nuke, and some are harder.

[SithMaster]

Nice post but I have to question your two points...
[ QUOTE ]
1.) It destroyes the capability for small groups that can't find a tank to hunt. (Not many people play tanks, esspecially at higher lvls). For example a SpS, Gladiator, and SE can not go party in forest of the dead or some place with close grouped mobs.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's not true at all. If the SE pops a heal, the HOT starts on the glad, he aggros a few mobs, fires his aoe, while you start sleepcloud. 3 mobs isn't gonna kill the gladiator whatsoever...they have more hp than tanks and only take about 20% more damage.

[ QUOTE ]

2.) It destroys the ability to "solo" which is never really soloing because you will have a buffer with you. But anyway, this hurts players that wanted a more solo playstyle. Since a game should be designed to benifit players of many styles this was a bad move on the developers part. But another bad move was making soloing much more faster than partying to lvl up (usually).


[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, they need to remove the red and yellow mob exp penalties. They do nothing but hurt party members. However, the nuker/se buffbox is TOO powerful of a solo. Every nuker worth his salt finds a clannie or makes a 2box SE and exps 4-5x faster than everyone else. Slowing this down is a healthy change. You can still go solo like everyone else, just not in high aggro, close spawning areas (which is what gave the absurd killspeed) and that makes sense. Nobody else can either.

[ QUOTE ]
Imo, if you are doing arena battles a fully buffed SpS with dance of concentration...you will still be slept in about 1 second. So it won't change PvP that much, and with the nerf to mental ageis it is even more rediculas.


[/ QUOTE ]
A nuker with mental aegis still resists my roots fairly well. It is nowhere near 100% land rate, that's for CERTAIN. When it fails, a nuker slows me and kites. I have no choice but to pull out a bow and fight back. Right now, I can get 2 shots off inbetween sleeps (thats full buffed). They cancel against a nuker with con, and but I suggest about 1/4. Every time I get slept, the nuker (a SH) heals himself to full hp, and continues beating me down. If I can't land root, I lose the fight. Even if the SH does get rooted, I have to pray for a lot of crits. He has 4k hp/cp to work through and I only crit for 600-700 on an A grade nuker when I'm buffed. What's worse, my A grade option for crit rate is a rsk focus, so that means I don't get much use of it until I have two hits left in me...which can't kill the target whatsoever. So I hack away for 100-200 damage and the nuker wins with 1-2k hp leftover. To me, that seems balanced.

Why is it nukers feel if they get touched during pve or pvp, they aren't strong enough. Sorry, but yes, you are going to have to get used to being hit sometimes. Full hp bars 24/7 was BROKEN.

So, I disagree, sleep is pve/pvp broken, though this change wasn't the best way to address it. Frankly, people just need better resistances to debuffing attacks. The land rate on those skills shouldnt be more than 50% on targets. Hell, my shield stun doesn't land for more than 50% on most targets, and an orc mystic with majestic...it lands about 1/20. An Overlord can stun me more than I stun him. Broken. Blessed sleep should've been taken down to 50/50 in pve and 10% in pvp. Sleep time should've been extended by 1 second for each spell...base (thats less than .5 full buffed). That would've solved the problem, but you certainly aren't gimp because of this. I love the people that seem to think sleep was the only spell in-game. You can still tear down my buffs every time you cast cancel...

All the new damage resists stack like hell and it's a great fix to the overpowered damage nukers do. They really have been tamed this chronicle if people can get over the 20 offensive buffs habit. Even the nasty spells with an SWS,WC,and resist buffs are going to start landing at much lower damage...which is PERFECT for players with 10 (yes TEN) resist buffs against magic damage. The great part is, most of them are learned at low levels, which gives cancel the highest chance to remove them first. So you lose your 5 magic resists and the nuker starts hitting again. Seems balanced to me.

[MalineII]

[ QUOTE ]
Sleep needed to be nerfed in PvP. I agree that in 1v1 pvp chain nuke sleeping was ******ed and had to be dealt with.

[/ QUOTE ]

All they had to do for this is make sleep cause a status effect that lasts maybe 35 seconds or so and works like an uberified version of Mental Aegis... but only works on players. A bit like AF? '__'; I really can't bring myself to belief that even NCSoft would pull this kind of idiotic nerf for 1v1 PvP, it makes no sense at all. Actually, on second thought. Heh. Yeah. You're right.

You can still use a dagger to pull from closely spawned groups (Lure is so underused) by the way - or root, and prioritise archers and mages (or heaven forbid someone silence in PvE).

[Tarun]

May I also mention how I hated that an sps could *solo* group mobs better than my warlord could *duo* them. There's nothing that makes your class feel more useless when someone outclasses you in your only forté.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
To be blunt if you XP somewhere where you HAVE to have CC to survive you shouldn't be there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? It's fun!

[GildranTheMighty]

[ QUOTE ]
May I also mention how I hated that an sps could *solo* group mobs better than my warlord could *duo* them. There's nothing that makes your class feel more useless when someone outclasses you in your only forté.

[/ QUOTE ]

That speaks more than every long *** post nearly everyone has made.

[Orvieta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be blunt if you XP somewhere where you HAVE to have CC to survive you shouldn't be there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? It's fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly

[MalineII]

Ah, it's not fun if you have sleep though.

So now it's actually fun.

[Zzznow21]

it was about time that L2 should stop being based on mages ONLY.
things are kind of MORE balanced now, and for 1st time in 5 chronicles, its kind of worthy to raise a fighter.
way to go NC on this one. it was really sucky to sleep to death. now, its far more interesting to pvp a mage. more skills needed than a continuous sleep

[PameanWraith]

[ QUOTE ]
Nukes havent been nerfed,what has changed however, is mobs attributes have been revamped.

Mobs which used to have no attributes now have"slightly high mdef, slightly weak mdef"etc, etc.

This probably accounts for the change from 3-2 shot .

Some mobs are now easier to nuke, and some are harder.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep that sounds about right. I did look at the mob attributes that were costing increased shots to see if maybe they had added a Resist MAttk icon, but they hadn't. But modifications on attributes does explain the added spell casting requirements.

In any case, as a Legit Sorc who doesn't have a buff bot soloing has become increasingly difficult and finding parties that want me has become.. well luckily I'm in a good clan. Unfortunately I'm the second highest level and my mates have some catching up to do, so when we party, xp is basically out the window hehe.

Fear not, I understand that there are (and should be) disadvantages that accompany advantages. I still have one spell that is an advantage over most other classes (Prominence). I suppose that's worth tossing everything else out the window.

I won't be crying to nerf every other class out there because mine has been hamstrung. I will continue to look on with mild amusement when even this nerf isn't enough to quell the chants of the arena flies to again nerf nukers.

[Tarun]

I thought the mobs always had these attributes, only now they are shown in the target window.

[PameanWraith]

I was looking for NEW attributes.

[Exello]

[ QUOTE ]
May I also mention how I hated that an sps could *solo* group mobs better than my warlord could *duo* them. There's nothing that makes your class feel more useless when someone outclasses you in your only forté.

[/ QUOTE ]

The PvE fix for this should not have been "Nerf sleep to death"; it should have been "Fix the WL"

Now we have no sleep, and WL is still gimped. Even without sleep, nukers still roll you in PvP.

I stand by my previous post. Fix or remove sleep from PvP, and leave it alone in PvE. Tanks have UD to save their butts, we need something of the sort to save ours.

[Molte]

[ QUOTE ]

I stand by my previous post. Fix or remove sleep from PvP, and leave it alone in PvE. Tanks have UD to save their butts, we need something of the sort to save ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in other words, you want sleep to have half an hour cooldown.
Good thinking ^^

[Husje]

What is the mob you are talking about quay

[Leyanire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nukes havent been nerfed,what has changed however, is mobs attributes have been revamped.

Mobs which used to have no attributes now have"slightly high mdef, slightly weak mdef"etc, etc.

This probably accounts for the change from 3-2 shot .

Some mobs are now easier to nuke, and some are harder.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep that sounds about right. I did look at the mob attributes that were costing increased shots to see if maybe they had added a Resist MAttk icon, but they hadn't. But modifications on attributes does explain the added spell casting requirements.

In any case, as a Legit Sorc who doesn't have a buff bot soloing has become increasingly difficult and finding parties that want me has become.. well luckily I'm in a good clan. Unfortunately I'm the second highest level and my mates have some catching up to do, so when we party, xp is basically out the window hehe.

Fear not, I understand that there are (and should be) disadvantages that accompany advantages. I still have one spell that is an advantage over most other classes (Prominence). I suppose that's worth tossing everything else out the window.

I won't be crying to nerf every other class out there because mine has been hamstrung. I will continue to look on with mild amusement when even this nerf isn't enough to quell the chants of the arena flies to again nerf nukers.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN to this fine statement ^^

[PameanWraith]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the mob you are talking about quay

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see (recalling from work here) Raiders of pastureland, grendel of pastureland, conjurer bats and conjurer bat lords, hames orc overlords, hames orc shamans, the doom knights at bs (can't remember their names, you know what they are) hot springs bandersnatch, hot springs atrox, bone grinder, zombie behemoth. That's what I recall for sure.

I did look to see if maybe there was a new Resists Mattack icon or something. Nope. Just takes more of my nukes to kill now.

[Thalenduros]

[ QUOTE ]

What part about this don't you get?


[/ QUOTE ]

The part about why you think your theorycraft comes anywhere near my experience and testing.

[ QUOTE ]

SLEEP IS NOT A 100% WIN BUTTON.


[/ QUOTE ]

Never has been. Guaranteed 100% Cancel + Guaranteed sleep was indeed broken... but sleep itself was fine provided you could figure out a 50% "good" magic buff SA.

As it stands now, Sleep isn't even a good investment for mana. I have removed both sleep and sleep cloud from my primary PvE and PvP hotbars. The sleep spells are almost completely useless as it stands and thus have joined Aura flare, Ice Dagger, Freezing Shackle, and all the other pointless spells in my "hotbar of random stupid tricks." Sadly, I am left with only a rare few spells worth casting in combat.

[ QUOTE ]

There, nice big capital letters for you.


[/ QUOTE ]

They say capslock is a fastlane to K3wl.
Grats on your l33T k3wLneE55.
(Is that right? My d3wdsp33k is very bad...)

[ QUOTE ]

If you sleep at the end of a fight and it lands, you can end a fight with full hp.


[/ QUOTE ]

/sigh Let's work on your mage PvP skills...
Dead opponenets don't hit you... you cant take very many hits... The logical plan is to just kill them and heal up later. Healing in combat has its place, but when you most need healing you will never be able to cast a 3 second sleep while a reasonably skilled enemy is at the keyboard.
Lesson number 1... always assume your opponent will do the best move possible and adapt to when he or she does not.

[ QUOTE ]

In mass pvp, while people scramble to target their clannies and wake scroll, they also have to stop attacking you...meaning you effectively stop ALL of their members from fighting for a brief instant.


[/ QUOTE ]

You just spent 5 seconds standing still and not killing and not helping in any way shape or form while the enemy closed to 600 range when you could have been nuking. (I guess you can nuke from 900 range intending to sleepcloud but then you have ANNOUNCED yourself and you are going to die 1 second after you start casting sleepcloud.)
Your 5 second spell is going to hit LESS than 33% of those mental shield buffed targets due to the AoE nature of Sleep cloud. (We are using your numbers for resist of sleep on mental shield which I highly doubt.)

[ QUOTE ]

If you spend 10 seconds (two sps) to stop 50 people from fighting


[/ QUOTE ]

You are not going to affect 50 people... It will get 33% of them... the other 66% will wake the ones that are slept very quickly.

[ QUOTE ]

for 5 seconds


[/ QUOTE ]

If it takes them that long to recover from a couple sleepclouds, then they don't know what they are doing.

[ QUOTE ]

you've made a huge difference in combat!


[/ QUOTE ]

Yay for slowing 16 people by 1.5seconds after having hid for a time and then casting for 5 seconds. I think killing one of them form 900 range and starting in on another is a much better solution and use of my time and mana.

Sadly enough, sleep cloud has never been anywhere near aoe root's power.
Root is harder to remove, will last longer, and requires considerably less cast time from a class(or classes now) that can take considerably more of a beating.

Smart players do not fear sleepcloud... they deal. AoE root bombs can win castle sieges all by themselves even if the opponent acts in the most reasonable method available.
Sleepcloud in C4 from 4-5 mages was considerably less powerful than a SINGLE Overlord charge.

Aoe Root was stengthened in C5... Sleepcloud was nerfed to pointlessness.

Funny how AoE root is now a paladin ability and you are lauding the power of a much weaker ability that got nerfed.

[ QUOTE ]

10 people? In a party vs party do you all stand on top of eachother? I'm talking about the gateway in a siege here.


[/ QUOTE ]

How long do people stand in gateways?
How long does sleepcloud take to cast?
What range is sleepcloud?

If you answer those correctly, then you understand how silly what you just said was.
YOU have gotten better at castle sieging (1)!

[ QUOTE ]

You should not have a skill which lands more than 50%


[/ QUOTE ]

You just said sleep lands 1 in 3 on mental shield which is 33%.
Sleep cloud has a LOWER land rate than sleep.
You are confused at best...

[ QUOTE ]

and causes so much of a problem for everyone...


[/ QUOTE ]

Sleep = 1.5 seconds and your buddy wakes you up... I suppose your clannies stand and look at the pretty bubbles? If you have a level 7x character and sleep is "so much of a problem" in mass PvP, then you need to go back to the mass PvP practice field with your buddies and practice until sleepcloud is barely an annoyance.

[ QUOTE ]

while also dealing 1k+ per nuke on a target without 3 specific buffs to your magic type.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because Eva forbid you have to get the mirror-image defensive buff to the offensive buff which the mage required to get that high of a nuke.

[ QUOTE ]

That's overpowered. You have to carry 7-8 buffs to counter mages...and you've still got the problem of mass range assisting on targets.


[/ QUOTE ]

And yet, paladins beat mages anytime their cooldowns are up... I had no trouble at all killing mages of all races... necros too. Paladins are supposed to be the rock to the mages' paper... and yet with a realtively competent player the paladin is quite good at killing mages 1v1 or in small groups with the right support.

The spellsinger class isn't overpowered in comparison to other classes by a long shot.
Perhaps in your eyes, I am overpowered as a player because I can figure out how to use a 50% SA, communicate with my clannies and deal with sleep in short order, and charge the overlord in and root everyone.
Hint... I am not the only one, and I am not overpowered in any way shape or form.

If you don't get it, you are underpowered as a player.
Go get some levels in common sense, tactics, teamwork, and game knowledge.


[ QUOTE ]

5 people nuke while 5 targets run at them, they kill 2 targets before they arrive. Now you have 5 to 3 odds...I don't care if that paladin can rip you apart, they've already lost the numbers game, and the time it takes for that to happen will allow the nukers to continue assisting to destroy the targets.


[/ QUOTE ]

Boy am I glad you aren't in the millitary...
Mages are DESIGNED to kill melee en masse when they have the advantage of range. 5 mages at 900 range will beat 5 paladins. Ask any millitary commander what happens to unsupported ground units when in optimal range of entrenched artillery units. This is correctly balanced and makes a lot of sense. Mages die when daggers get close or become useless when priests sleep/manadrain them... Frankly paladins get the better deal. A dead paladin takes less effort and mana to recover on a battle field than a manaless mage.


If we are talking seige buffed...
Give me three paladins and two archers and I will beat your 5 mages every day of the week.
There is nothing the mages can do... they will lose every single fight.
Give me three paladins and two daggers(especially TH with their cooldowns up) and I will win almost every single battle.
5 mages do not even remotely compare to 5 siege buffed archers. Two mages will die (almost mathematically guaranteed) in the first shot of the battle.


[ QUOTE ]

The ranged advantage is still totally there, mages have only slightly been pvp weakened, but immensely pve weakned for the nuker/se combo. GOOD


[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not... if you lose as a paladin more often than you win vs a nuker 1v1 with at least one of your cooldowns up you are not playing to proficient levels. Its that simple.

Mages have been horrifyingly nerfed in PvP with absolutely no defense for archers, very little defense vs daggers (both classes they are SUPPOSED to be killing), and are considerably less capable against knights and frankly anyone with stun and a few HP.

Nuker/SE combo is untouched... nothing about a manabot is reduced. You are confused.

[ QUOTE ]

And I am no pvp fool,


[/ QUOTE ]

And yet... you cannot figure out a 50% "good magic" SA.
And yet... you think sleep "causes so much of a problem for everyone" in mass PvP.
And yet... you and your buddies are held up for 30 seconds when sleeping cloud hits you.
And yet... you do not have half a clue what mages can and cannot do in mass PvP.
And yet... you seem to believe that 5 paladins should mop the floor with 5 mages at range.

Your posts speak loud and clear on your experience in PvP...

[ QUOTE ]

I am a 100% archer user for mass pvp. I make and design combat around seperating enemies for mass archer parties with pimped out offense buffs to rip through. I am well aware how bad the class is broken, but the fact they need fixing as well does not justify your being overpowered too.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are agreed on the fact archers are broken... but disagree on the method to fix it.
Archers do not actually need a nerf... buff stacking does.
This applies to ALL buffs and even to melee buffs.
Cast speed, crit chance and crit damage are the worst offenders.

Power is relative in any MMORPG.
Mages are not overpowered... Orc mystics, paladins, daggers and archers are currently overpowered in comparison to the other classes in C5.
I believe we should buff everyone up to the level of most of those classes and not nerf anyone but the extreme edges.

[ QUOTE ]

In the mean time, get over it. It happened, you got nerfed despite all the bytching and it isn't going away. Deal with it and adapt.


[/ QUOTE ]

In case you haven't noticed, I am dealing with it...

By bringing to light the exaggerations of certain ignorant players.

By making the most noise and thus getting the "oil"... but by doing it right and highlighting "balance" and "relative power".

There shouldn't be an "uber" class or classes.
Every single class should have its ups and downs. Every class should have its strengths and weaknesses and its reason to bring them to every event in the game. Every class shoud be able to "solo" to some degree, and yet bring something (or a combination of somethings) to XP groups, raids, small groups, and sieges.

Even if they don't listen to me... I get to pick apart your thin arguments for fun... ;-)

[Thorn]

Good lord that was a long post...didn't make it all the way though. Sleep got a nerf, develop new tactics, and move on. If people are going to quit because of this, I don't see how nukers got along before sleep was given to them.

[MalineII]

One note: There is no "mirror-image" defense buff that cuts mage damage that much, only warding and barrier. After that, you can protect yourself after only one element, and that's likely not going to be holy/water.

And no pity for people who get rooted - they had a whole chronicle to work on sucking up on summoners and getting their ESs into good parties to OE their pet, for all who didn't: Nobody to blame.

[PameanWraith]

[ QUOTE ]
Good lord that was a long post...didn't make it all the way though. Sleep got a nerf, develop new tactics, and move on. If people are going to quit because of this, I don't see how nukers got along before sleep was given to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mobs were slower, less resistant to magic, weren't as likely to stun, etc.

[Lyds]

Before mages had sleep:

From C1 patch notes actually, the run speed of all mobs over level 50 was increased 50% - thats not a direct quote but i can quote it directly if you're going to argue it with me.

The magic casting mobs were far and few between

Mobs didn't use "skills" (sleep, root, cancel, dagger specials, etc - i think a few stunned.. very rarely)

Mobs didn't die and spawn 5 mobs in their place

Mobs didn't run away and bring back friends to help fight you
The only "high" hp mobs were in cruma tower - At level 78 the amount of 1x hp mobs in the game that are white/green to me are next to non-existant.

There were no group mobs

There were no magic resistant mobs

There were no "critical chance" or "critical power" mobs

Etc.

While I can't speak for spellhowlers, necros, or even sorcs, I know that there is no such thing as a green or white mob in the game that i can "two shot".

Just now at level 77/78 as a spellinger (with +4 INT, empower 3, and zerk, DC set, and +3 som w/ acumen) I can two shot lava wyrms in BS, they are light blue. Even the Orc overlords in upper BS which are green to me require a surrender to "two shot" with hydroblast, which is still three spells (for those of you not versed in mages surrender takes as much MP as hydroblast does). For those of you who will argue "use solarflare it does more damage!" I'm gonna stop you and tell you now that a surrendered hydroblast is more damage than solarflare.

Spellhowlers and necros didn't get hit nearly as hard as sorcs and spellsingers. At least sh/necro have the ability to vamp back hp while handling multiple mobs.

Every single class in the entire game has the ability to vamp back HP while killing mobs (granted some need a buff to do it) except for sorcs/spellsingers - spellsingers have it worse than sorcs.. at least sorcs can vamp till about level 45 or so.

You have jewelry, armor, buffs that allow you to gain hp while attacking a mob, spellsingers do not. There is no magic jewelry, buff, spell, or armor that allows me to regenerate HP while I'm attacking a mob. Sure I can use fear.. very good spell, with emp3, a som +3, zerk, bsps, and dances its about a 60% land rate on GREEN mobs. Sure I can use frost bolt and kite a mob, hopefully not into other mobs, and i sure hope nothing spawns behind me in the process!

I don't expect all of you to understand, because the majority of people who play this game aren't at high enough levels to understand how much this nerf hurts mages (75+ specifically). Sleep cloud at 75+ is hardly an "overpowered" skill. The last time it gets upgraded is level 70, so even if you're 75 you're still using a skill thats 5 levels lower than the mobs you're trying to sleep, or to reverse that, its like trying to sleep cloud yellow/red mobs at level 70 - its a really really bad land rate. Not until i got my sleep cloud to +9 did I appreciate the skill again, prior to that I'd sleep cloud then single sleep the targets it missed, if I got REALLY lucky it would land on half of them.

Now is where Sithmaster can chime in and tell me to go cry more and reroll because I don't know how to play my class.

[MalineII]

[ QUOTE ]
and i sure hope nothing spawns behind me in the process!


[/ QUOTE ]

Just-spawned mobs rarely aggro just as they spawn, and of course you could look while you're kiting. At least you have the luxury of being able to click somewhere and actually move there. If I don't find a mob in the direction I'm trying to move towards, I'm out of luck. If I DO find a mob, I must lose target and then retarget while I'm running and hope that I actually take less than three or four seconds to react when trying to turn around.

[ QUOTE ]
its like trying to sleep cloud yellow/red mobs at level 70

[/ QUOTE ]

If you weren't a nuker, you would also know that this is not true. But eh.

Maybe it stings at the top levels - but there are 75 levels before where you are, and believe it or not, they also matter - or if they didn't, SEs would be the worst buffers on earth.

[Lyds]

Please tell me how you know the land rate of sleep cloud better than I do when I've played a spellsinger for 78 levels since the first week of Prelude?

Theres actually 77 levels before where I am, but with that logic you're telling me that its OK that the 3 hardest levels of grinding anyway should be made even harder.. just because? So its like.. yeah have fun playing your spellsinger until 75, might as well give up then because you've done 75 levels that "matter" and the last 3 may matter a little bit more but the extra effort definately isn't worth the extra rewards.

Edit: what class are you that doesn't have the luxury to click somewhere and move there.. I don't understand what you're trying to say here!

[MalineII]

Yellow/red mobs at level 70 are level 73(4?)-76 or so. The upper spectrum of that is white to you at 78, and they're all white at 75. You're going off sleeping greens/blues though (since that what you claimed was the only hunting option), which puts them at around 70 for a character around level 75 - which is white at 70, quite obviously.

Now, that aside, if you weren't a nuker but a cleric or summoner, you'd also know that character versus target level has an awful lot to do with spellfailure and that thus, even if your comment about yellow/red mobs had referred to the intended level range, it would still not be true.

ETA: I'm a summoner. If I want the pony to kite, it can kite towards me, towards a mob group, or towards a SINGLE point it has to be at first to kite back there. I can't tell it "there's a free lake over there, I know you don't get movement reduction in it, there are definitely no aggro spawns, so how about YOU KITE THERE". I can tell it "Come back here. Please. Hey, come back here does not mean 'stand still and get my 400 PDef shoved into places I don't want to think about by four mobs,' it means won't you please come back over here."

I have to guess when its reuse timer is down because I can not see it, I have to guess whether it has enough MP (because keeping a servitor status window open on a 800*600 screen is unrealistic, and I actually can't check how much MP each nuke consumes anywhere) for the next run, and I have to guess whether it will actually run straight into a group when told to stop or stop.

Consequently, and having known some summoners who kite much better than me (retargeting multiple mob groups to direct a servitor along a path without picking up aggro, pressing softly enough for the servitor to obey almost instantly etc.), I can not stand archers or nukers talking about how hard it is to kite.

Seriously, try navigating a baby pet or something across the Skyshadow Meadow without catching extra aggro to get a feel of how stupidly difficult kiting with a servitor is.

Add to that that when I use the servitor my class was designed for (which casts about as slow as sleep and also has a cool down timer of several seconds, i.e. if it does not kite even having started the nuke at range 900 it won't finish a second cast by the time a mob reaches it) consumes a whoopping 90% of experience, and things come into perspective really sharply.

As a summoner, all I can say is: Even the most [censored] nuker (namely my ponies) is awesome when coupled with a healer. Use it, love it, sit down when the healer runs OOM.

[SithMaster]

Dear GOD...how dare you suggest a nuker med.

[Serra]

I agree sleep nerf is too much and should be changed.
I have posted some suggestions for this is the appropriate forum but all the response i got was from DD's that are out for revenge. If you want to see things changed, please read my suggestions (Game suggestions -> Sleep in C5) and either agree or come up with other suggestions. Maybe we're able to talk some sense into NcSoft.

[Achika]

hmm to be honest as i read this i see one trend ....... the only people that are seeing a posative advantage are the fighter class's they are like "stop whinning" and stuff like that ... i beleive with them not having played a nuker them selfs they wouldnt know the full usefulness of sleep and i totally agree with the SPS class's out there as SPS does not do much damage in groups so crowd control is kinda what they do

[_Charmille_]

The melee classes have suffered from the sleep so ofcourse they're now enjoying the nerf. And believe me, many of us have nukers too, but on the other hand, how many of you nukers have high lvl melees?

[Lyds]

My swordsinger sub is 7x, does that count?

[PameanWraith]

[ QUOTE ]
The melee classes have suffered from the sleep so ofcourse they're now enjoying the nerf. And believe me, many of us have nukers too, but on the other hand, how many of you nukers have high lvl melees?

[/ QUOTE ]
The Nukers replying to these threads are not making exaggerations about the benefits of the melee class as is happening in the converse. We are not suggesting a retaliatory ner***e of melees etc. We grasp and appreciate the disadvantages that face the melee class and have oft suggested improvements to the class that will help balance class-to class instead of berfing away the internal balancers within each class to the lowest common denominator.

And if melees are really dealing with sleep in pvp on a regular basis, they should step out of the arena occasionally.

[_Charmille_]

Small party pvp and siegewarfare = sleep often enough.

[PameanWraith]

[ QUOTE ]
Small party pvp and siegewarfare = sleep often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. :)

[GildranTheMighty]

After all this [censored] and moaning and whatnot, I bet there really hasn't been much change at all to how you all PvP en masse or in 9 man groups.

[Lord Chaos]

The point is that if you're going to nerf something, don't just blindly nerf something which mostly affect the wrong type of nuker players.

[afkanddead]

I think its pretty obvious that they didnt 'blindly' nerf this for no reason at all. I think it is obvious that one of the reasons it changed was to allow healers to be used for sleeping now considering trance IS sleep but just lasts a little less time.

[SithMaster]

Put CC back in the hands of healers. Sounds GG to me.

[Lyds]

QUICK HEAL ME I'M DYING - ONE SEC I'M TRYING TO TRANCE THESE 7 MOBS THAT JUST GOT PULLED. HERE'S YOUR HEAL - OH CRAP ALL THE MOBS WOKE UP, CRAP I CAN'T HEAL YOU ALL THAT FAST - YOU GUYS CAN EITHER HAVE ME CC OR HEAL PICK ONE I CAN'T BE RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH.



- WHY THE -_- DID THEY HAVE TO GIMP SLEEP - WE NEED A CC'ER DOWN HERE - NOW





Sithmaster when you get out of exping in disciples and saints and get to the bigger badder areas, HF telling your healer to CC and heal :) BTW that was an actual vent conversation that took place.. poor EE :(

[SithMaster]

Yeah, like FOG or IT...and we dont seem to have problems. Guess you have crappy party designs...especially if theyre that reliant on cc.

[MalineII]

Of course getting, say, an EE for recharges and CC in the spot that used to have the SCer seems totally out of the question too...

[SithMaster]

What? Two healers?! Madness!

Better yet, get a tank with AOE root that is cheaper than hate aura :)

[MalineII]

Or get a dagger to pull... >.>

Uhoh, a DD not hitting assist over and over?

[SithMaster]

Hold on hold on...are you implying we don't just charge into rooms blindly and run around like chickens with our heads cut off?

[lilune666]

As a solo Spell Howler (no second account buffer here, so really solo =P) I've noticed the risk of soloing now more closely matches the reward, so in this case it's a good change!
For crowd control purposes, the negative impact of slower sleep spells is significant! I've been through a lot of nerfings in my EQ and EQ2 career, but there was always some compensation for the nerfed class, or at the very least an honest, formal explanation!
Whether it is done for the "good of the game" or not is beside the point, as it's the customers that matter most. It's not as simple as cutting off the parts that don't work, but I get that impression with L2 every update it seems!
Giving something thoughtful and balanced to the classes that were adversely affected would be the mark of a company that cares about it's customers.
On a side note, I have been very impressed with the ability of the EQ2 staff to implement sweeping changes to the game on such a frequent basis.
It's like they care, or something.

[PameanWraith]

A SH has reasonable mana management. So the nerf doesn't hit them as hard.

I am glad that healers get to play a more important role.

It is a shame that it came at the expense of the SpS and Sorc.

Still ok as secondary nukers at raids and sieges, still good to have in party for pvp. No use in an xp party anymore. Soloing is a new animal we need to adjust to.

Pretty much end of story.

[MalineII]

Same thing happened to summoners in C4, was touted as a "huge boost" and followed up with the Erase nerf in C5. Fun times.

Maybe the Sleep Nerf should be called a boost to your DDing abilities also?

[SithMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
No use in an xp party anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I couldve sworn we were still gathering angels on ToI 10 tonight and SCing them all to make the trip easier. Seemed to work just fine while I was tanking. Sure it's slower...but then...15 7x mobs don't kill me in 5 seconds. Try a tank.

[Nainsect]

SPS are dead ! RIP !
Many friends are leaving :/

[SithMaster]

Aww my class isn't brokenly overpowered...I quit.

[EvilTreerat]

Yep, the standard threat of the fotm - "if you don't put me back to the most-favored-baby status I'll quit!" Six years and they still haven't learned. When a company breaks out the nerf bat to an over-populated class its a good indication they figure the revenue from those staying to enjoy a better game will far outweigh the actual number of rerollers that leave. You can whine, throw hissy fits, and make all the threats you want - unless you get more casters to outright quit (not just shelve their "I win" class) than the number of returning melees sorry but you are SOL.

Oh and I don't bother toying around with casters (atleast until now) - I avoid the fotm train like the plague. See I perfer some actual risk versus easy-moding things. But as a DA I've also been playing with fear (Horror) and a snare (you call them slows - ie. Hamstring) for quite a while. For some reason even with a matk not over 200 and a slow-as-a-snail cast speed I'm still able to solo with a low-dps class on whites, yellows, and light red x4 monsters. If I absolutely need to keep the monster from running to help (remember monsters run directly away from you - fear facing away from its friends) I snare it then fear it. So somehow I'm able to use some thing like this, yet a class with better matk and faster cast speed (land more and faster) is unable to do the same method?

Oh and if these insults are the best you can direct at me please go back to school. If you can't even match the forum-war abilities of WoW and Planetside you aren't even enteraining to read. I miss my old forum-enemies. Atleast we could get into interesting fights; so far these boards and the unmoderated ones aren't even interesting.

[SithMaster]

The complaints are all the same. "I miss being uber and doing things only my class could do." Gosh...why would anyone want that changed?

[Binksley]

awww Sith. You berate all class whiners. And here i thought it was only the summoners. <3 <3 <3

[Headcrab]

Adapt and move on like the rest of us.

[MalineII]

He actually even berates paladin whiners. It's quite awesome.

I'll still whine, of course.

[GildranTheMighty]

[ QUOTE ]
Hold on hold on...are you implying we don't just charge into rooms blindly and run around like chickens with our heads cut off?

[/ QUOTE ]

I screamed and laughed all at the same time. That's worth a siggy quote.

[Lord Chaos]

Uhm, casters are still the same über really, this doesn't affect the most powerful casters.

The only real change to nukers at the top level is that some of the other classes have gained boosts which makes them comparably weaker. (and this is a good thing, a nerf thats hitting the wrong crowd is not)

[MalineII]

Nobody is celebrating this as a nuker PvP nerf I think...

And in PvE, it hit exactly where it was meant to. I'm saying this with my last crowd control tool having been taken out of the game at the same time as sleep too.

[Larielle]

Sleep (and sleeping cloud) certainly was too powerful, it made levelling in dangerous places far too easy. I'm actually enjoying playing without it (I don't have Trance yet..no spellbook), and sometimes it even saves mp. It's been an automatic reaction of mine to always sleep adds, but it's not always worth it. The change to sleep has stopped that for me at least, it's broken a bad habit :).

PvE should be a lot more difficult in my opinion (or take more thought), if you want to have a group hunting deep red mobs, mistakes should cause deaths. Sleep/Sleeping cloud almost eliminated the risks, and now maybe it'll be a little better, I doubt it though :).

As for nukers, well I still see plenty levelling in Forest of the Dead, a lot faster than my groups level. I guess they're coping with it fine.

[SithMaster]

The day of the sleep nerf, I spoke with a high lvl SPS on our server. I see one valid complaint in existence about this nerf, but he listed three entirely different ones. He listed the three CLASSIC ones listed in this entire thread...and they are all invalid. The whole point was to remove things your class could do that no other class could. That means sleeping aggro to sneak through TOI floors and dungeons. A dagger with silent moved went through aggro zones slower than a sleep clouder. That needed to be fixed, and this was one of the only ways to address it.

[SithMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
He actually even berates paladin whiners. It's quite awesome.


[/ QUOTE ]

There may be elements of balancing to fix, but it is another entire step to just whine about something because you want it. God forbid the Korean devs ever tried to make American players happy. We would all run around one hitting eachother (and not just killing, but overhitting and earning exp for it). We would all duo raid bosses (solo is OBVIOUSLY too much and players whine about that), and the bigger your clan, the less the clan buffs would effect you.

I think that covers it.

[MalineII]

The Koreans whine just as unreasonably. ;) I don't want my class to be uber. I just don't want to stand over there in the buff [Censored] corner. Honestly, at the moment I'd be very happy with how things are if they removed Queen, Seraphim and Nightshade - but oh, how FoTM rerolls (and some people who've gotten used to it) would cry.

[SithMaster]

Those summons just need more runspeed.

At least there it's 10k whiners vs 10k nonwhiners for each thread. Here...it's always Luke vs world. I'm pulling off an amazing record considering the odds.

[MalineII]

That's not true, and you know it. I've been labelled the flagship of the anti-mage hate crowd, because I totally love getting pummeled by pobbies and cohorts and that's just so mages don't sleep me in 1v1 anymore (which I don't do, but that's a detail).

Unbuffed third servitors have 198 runspeed by the way. They don't really need more.

[_Charmille_]

You're not alone Luke :) But then again, you're a tank so you can take most of the stuff and we can then take what comes past your corpse >.>

[SithMaster]

I get more runspeed in most sieges. If the class has to run from healers and is easily rooted...I have no problem with it being incredibly quick.

[Shadowmick]

I so am run down to just a freaking buffer .. . what good am I if I can help my group as a SE ??

:(

[Taraza]

summoners got nerfed in PvP but better in PvE as long as they do AoE groups.

[MalineII]

Better?

I seem to be doing ... the same... damage! Down to a point.

[SithMaster]

He meant the nongimp summoners.

And no, the SE was not reduced to a buffer. It still has greater heals...which the prophet and WC do not.

So you have buffers - Proph/WC
Healers - EE/Bishop
Hybrid - SE

And SE will still be the most wanted toon for small grps because they can do a mix of everything.

[digibluez]

there is a circle...u can not kill archers and tanks but other mages instead now - like healers-lol. Have fun.

[Taraza]

[ QUOTE ]
Better?

I seem to be doing ... the same... damage! Down to a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought summoners got AoE Surrender

[Crawlerin]

If you mean necro, then yes. As necros are summoner and nuker hybrid ...

[Tiffy]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear you MalineII. But as a Sorc, I have no new skills this chronicle. I think basically between levels 58 and 75 there is nothing different about the sorc except the gear they can wear. Even upping thie skills is very very minimal in effect.

Not all nukers are Uber.

And as for the whole running through TOI thing. Let's remember the character balances inherent in all of us. As a silk-wearer I get a max-hp to death beatdown in mere moments. I have zero ability to beat on a mob with my weapons, pop potions and survive. My mana runs out faster than I bleed and then I have nothing at all. No armor, no pdef, no pattk. The balance inherent in my toon is and always has been tied directly to my skills. Yes, skills other classes don't have, because they also have attribute that my class lacks.

It's whack whack whack away at the skills leaving my class with yet again, no attributes and a shrinking array of skills. Healers and buffers have it worse, but are by definition, support classes.

So.... Any legit 70+ healers, buffers and tanks looking to party with a Sorc on Sieg?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a legit Prophet looking for groups, but not 70+ yet sorry. heh
Sleep is a nerf that nukers will have to work around. It hurts them & there parties. It's not something NCSoft will just fix, they want to see how we adjust to it, maybe learn new ways of killing stuff & taking out more mobs if we pull to many. I myself, have a nuker & I have the casting time on sleep, but I never used it much in the first place, & I will continue to play without it. :p

[MalineII]

There's no more gimp summoner in PvE AoE than an ES. :p We got a + to MAtk, but I swear I'm getting Pobbies down to the same sliver of HP (I'm measuring it in whacks of a mystic without shots with a mystic dagger, those are really small whacks) as before C5.

Of course there's Mass Surrender to Aqua, which draws some hate off the servitor and onto the summoner. That seems really cool until you realise that tanking 4 adds consistantly in robes (and you need robes to AoE with the merrow, especially if you want to be casting extra spells) for 20 minutes is not fun. Also note that when tanking for a pony while AoEing, slapping on TP is not an option - and suddenly it looks like... dududun, nothing's changed.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course there's Mass Surrender to Aqua, which draws some hate off the servitor and onto the summoner. That seems really cool until you realise that tanking 4 adds consistantly in robes (and you need robes to AoE with the merrow, especially if you want to be casting extra spells) for 20 minutes is not fun. Also note that when tanking for a pony while AoEing, slapping on TP is not an option - and suddenly it looks like... dududun, nothing's changed.

[/ QUOTE ]
They've got a passive boost, as tanks are boosted and polearmers are nerfed :D