What was the point of changing heals? [Archive]

Listof

09-09-2006, 01:21 PM

Hmm, I both agree and disagree with you.

I do not like the new heal system at all. I saw no problem with the old system, no reason to change it. It did really gimp SEs, I mean they are useless in PvP now. I think that's ******ed. And this coming from me, the EE who got cheated out of sooooo many parties from C1 - C3 because they all wanted an SE.

However, I disagree with you on the 'making healers useless' point. If anything this chronicle has made EEs and Bishops better and more needed than they've ever been before. We're now the only classes that can function as sleepers. We're boosted above SEs who are now just buffers with average heals. We're able to provide defence against necros, where before there was little you could do against them. And in the right situations, we can actually do something in PvP other than heal (mana burn). And even though Major Heal costs money, it still works exactly like the old heal did.

I'm not one to claim that healers just sit back and rake in the dough, everyone always assumes that about healers and it's just not true. Most classes make their money soloing, not in parties and since healers can't solo... But still, one spirit ore per heal is not that bad. I mean it's just about 500a per heal and you get that much on every mob. Plus it saves you MP.

My main concern is the learning curve. You have to decide which heal to use. Is Greater Heal going to restore HP fast enough? What if the person suddenly gets crit or aggros more mobs? Is Major Heal overkill? Don't want to waste money. It's just bothersome is all.

SithMaster

09-09-2006, 01:25 PM

Anything that requires ppl to think...instead of simply pick the uber class and win...is a healthy change.

Elrohir

09-09-2006, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anything that requires ppl to think...instead of simply pick the uber class and win...is a healthy change.

[/ QUOTE ]
Crap, you're gonna make me think now? :mad:

It's definitely an adjustment... ****, I didn't notice until now that the new heals require soul ore. ++more crap to carry.

Champa

09-09-2006, 01:41 PM

When I first heard about this change/nerf I was ****** - this is only natural. Untill now I have been able to function both as a healer and a buffer (not both at once, or at least not without help), which really wasn't right. But this is what SEs have been used to. We choose one class because of what it's able to do, and suddenly everything changes. I've been demoted to buffer and back up healer. This isn't really fun to me, so I don't really have problems abandoning my SE and starting a new life as a bishop on Der Franz.

Mortova

09-09-2006, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anything that requires ppl to think...instead of simply pick the uber class and win...is a healthy change.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Writes that down somewhere* I have GOT to remember that.

Oh and QFTDT (Quoted for the dam truth)

kiraliaa

09-09-2006, 01:50 PM

Only the real Major Heals need spirit ore, so you don't have to carry extra Elohir. I'm sure those who do have to with this and other skills will be glad if they add in that Korean patch to make em lighter lol.

Listof there is more to think of than if the Major would be overkill too, since the old pansy baby Heal is almost as strong as the new version of Greater Heal's immediate portion.

And Sith the idea of claiming anyone chose any healer/buffer class in this game as an ' uber class " and talking about doing so to win made me giggle. :)

Isdin

09-09-2006, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And Sith the idea of claiming anyone chose any healer/buffer class in this game as an ' uber class " and talking about doing so to win made me giggle. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I picked my SE so I could be a mad PKer if I wanted to and no one would beable to stop me.

jkoster

09-09-2006, 02:30 PM

Hah.

Of course, I'm known as the Bloody Elder.

First SE in my clan to require a sin eater twice.

Orvieta

09-09-2006, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hah.

Of course, I'm known as the Bloody Elder.

First SE in my clan to require a sin eater twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the club...only difference is = I keep my pk points, no sin eater in my house.

Elrohir

09-09-2006, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Only the real Major Heals need spirit ore, so you don't have to carry extra Elohir.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I said "new heals". :p

EllieBelly

09-09-2006, 04:03 PM

I don't really care for this either, I picked a bishop to be a pure healer, to have all the good heals but little else. Now my heals are sort of gimped because I need to not only bring a stack of sps/bsps but now ALSO spirit ore. It's like being an archer but not being able to solo or kill people. :/

So now I have

greater heal (HoT)
greater battle heal (immediate)
greater group heal (HoT)
Vitalize (immediate, expensive)
Balance life
Restore life (immediate, slow, long recharge)
Major heal (immediate, costs ore)
Major Group heal (immediate, costs more ore)

I mean come on. Why didn't they just make the major heals work like the greater heals for bishops and EE's and gimp the SE's heals only? It's not like buckets of people were playing bishops anyway.

Molte

09-09-2006, 04:08 PM

Wel, SE was allways a slow healer in pvp anyhow.
Now they got a little boosted as for usefullness with mana burn as wel.
Root is really powerfull in pvp, and very underestimated.
Perhaps its time to think more offensive as an SE, and go as assistant healer instead.

I dont really see the problem with using Spirit Ore (appart from the weight). Its not like its most expensive class in party anyhow. Archers need arrows, healers now need spirit ore.

And were still pretty early in c5, so we'll see I guess.

afkanddead

09-09-2006, 04:13 PM

lol, prophets only have level 40 heals and SE's get greater heals and VR and Emp instead of haste/acumen/btb. IMO they finally reorganized heals the way they should have been from the beginning. An SE is an offensive buffer and has no business with top heals. They still have greater heal which is completely fine for any pve group.

So whats the problem? EE's and Bishops actually get to play the role they were meant for since C1? I am very suprised anyone has a problem with this except for those with SE's who are made because they cant have a one class does all the buffing and healing anymore.

Sleep/heals were one of the best balances I have seen in any of the udpates. Now healers belong in the proper classes and have a role in pvp. Buffers have a role in pvp its called BUFFING. At sieges its going to be a lot better when you save your mana for when your whole alliance dies and needs to be rebuffed instead of sending everyone into the castle with no buffs.

Lord Chaos

09-09-2006, 04:17 PM

Ok, what exactly does a healer have to do with "uber class"?

SilverWolfEcho

09-09-2006, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, what exactly does a healer have to do with "uber class"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I believe in C4 we were referred to as the "class behind the uber class."

SithMaster

09-09-2006, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And Sith the idea of claiming anyone chose any healer/buffer class in this game as an ' uber class " and talking about doing so to win made me giggle. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I picked my SE so I could be a mad PKer if I wanted to and no one would beable to stop me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I couldve sworn that for every 1% you lose in a clan war in a 2 min pvp, you have to spend nearly 20-30 mins earning it back exping. So you spend 10x more pve than pvp. Thus making pve a terribly important aspect...enabling you to return to pvp. The SE was the uber support class. It buffed, it healed, it did everything. What's the point of using another buffer if 90% of the job can be done by one? Hence why 3/4s of the buffers were SEs. This will fix that ratio and force a mix. It will make pts harder, yes, but how is that bad? PvE is a joke these days.

Most people hardly pay attention to what theyre doin, and if you take them out of their uber parties they get confused. They stand next to rooted mobs, they wake mobs that are solo slept, they train away from the party into aggro. When PvE gets that easy because the classes get so strong, you have to do something about it. Hence the major crowd control and buffer/healer nerfs that got passed around. This game rewards risks taken. If you exp in tougher places, it hands out better rewards. Instead, risk had been removed for many class combos. That is being restored. Everyone has a weakness...a risk...and a reward for playing smart. That is a good way to run L2.

hoaxian

09-09-2006, 04:54 PM

The new heals system is gimped, but it adds strategy to a fight if your an SE, but what they should do is back the aggro off from healers if they are going to a heal over time system. i was okay pulling aggro when heals were instant, but when i'm healing over time and still pulling aggro, that angers me

Caracarn

09-09-2006, 07:17 PM

Major Heal is actually better than the normal heals used to be. Yes they cost spirit ore, but they cost much less mp and heal for more. I've only done one xp party since i got major heal (dont have major group heal yet) and I already like it better than before.

Lyds

09-09-2006, 07:41 PM

Are bishops seriously complaining about their heals??? You have a new heal that costs 1 spirit ore when fully buffed with prayer heals for 1700 hp, using only 80 mp at high levels, and its instant for all of that HP. Your group heal heals for about 1500 HP fully buffed, instantly for the whole party.

It costs 1 spirit ore, one, thats 500 adena and truthfully its only really necessary as an emergency heal or for PVP circumstances. In a party from what I've seen and experienced regular heal does just fine. Even if you use major heal without spiritshot it heals for almost 1k. If you're that concerned just use a NG weapon and NG BSPS and you'll still get heals for 1400-1500 or so.

Bishops got the best of both worlds, they got two new heals, EE's also rock with major heal - its an amazing skill. SE's are the only healer class who got "screwed" per se, however they were never that great as pvp healers either (compared to EE's and Bishops) And their place in party as a healer is still there - it does take more strategy as was pointed out and may have to also be used with battle heal if stuff gets really bad in your party.

Healers are very very far from useless, quite the opposite, you've sat there for many chronicles not needing to use spirit shot, all of a sudden its useful for heals, even so still wasn't necessary in all healing circumstances. You're still getting 1/2 to 1/9 of the loot in the party. You don't hear the rest of the party complaining about spending 90+ adena per hit, or mages spending 350+ adena per spell - almost 700 adena per spell if they have an S grade weapon.

If anyone got screwed its prophets, greater might/shield costs 3 spirit ore each cast while the WC greater might/shield cost 3 spirit ore for the entire party. And you better believe your party is going to want GM/GS thats 6 spirit ore per character, each time you buff, let alone if that prophet has POF - thats another 5 spirit ore per player every 5 minutes.

You have many options as a bishop to conserve MP and money now, if you don't feel like spending the extra bucks just use vitalize and greater heal until mp gets lower than switch off to major heal to conserve MP for a bit.

Unless you're soloing its always been nearly impossible to make good profit in party on adena drops alone, and if you're depending on adena drops to build your majestic set its not going to happen. Getting adena drops isn't how you make money in this game, if anything it pays for the cost of exping. At least thats how its been for DD classes for a while, welcome to the world of always being broke, you should be thankful you got the heals you did, they're kick ***... no one is making you use them for every heal, it may take a bit of getting used to to learn when to use them, but they DO have their purpose - and its a **** good one at that.

SithMaster

09-09-2006, 08:32 PM

The changes are good and the crying needs to end.

EllieBelly

09-09-2006, 08:39 PM

Do you PLAY a healer? I've been using sps for my heals since they started boosting heals, because it was still far far cheaper than a DD using SS in party or a mage using sps to attack.

And heals for 4 chronicles were instant without spirit ore, it's just bizzare and new. We'll get use to it but yea it's odd as heck having a skill you've used since the beginning of time changed plus adding an extra cost. Or for SE's , their heals use to be just as good as bishops and now they aren't.. takes some adjusting doesn't it?

ProdaznayaShkura

09-09-2006, 11:41 PM

Copyed from another thread :

What I was saying the whole time, and what surprisingly few people understand. Everybody seems to think the SE is overpowered because we have empower and VR. And people seem to believe that having these two buffs is enough to justify that SE heals should get nerfed, because "SE is a buffer" (while at the same time they forget that most parties want a Prophet or Warcryer, because SE lacks important buffs, and prophets have all the buffs SE has except for emp/vr, so all SE buffs EXCEPT emp/vr are superfluous).

Now, if all you really want from a SE is emp/vr, consider this: empower 3 is a lvl 52 buff. VR3 is a lvl 58 buff. VR3 is totally enough for almost all situations. If you have a BD in party (which all parties want, since BD immensely increases kill speed), you even get effectively vr6 with vr3+dance of vampire. So all you need is an out of party lvl 58 SE. You simply do not NEED a high lvl SE, because they have no interesting skills. They have nothing to look forward to. Yes, a high level SE can recharge other high level toons, but so can a EE - and far better, with higher mp regen and clarity buff for self recharge. Just give me one good reason why somebody should now play a SE to lvl 75+ (except masochism).

As was said above, EE and Bishop were always good in pvp, they were wanted classes there because they could actually keep people alive, and party return is a great skill for gank parties. SE was always the good pve healer. Now EE and Bishop got far, far better in pve and stay just as attractive in pvp. While the SE sucks even worse in pvp (I cannot keep anybody alive now, it is just hopeless) and got seriously nerfed in pve, too. I honestly do not know what NCSoft were thinking. Actually, I suppose they were not thinking at all, to be honest.

(C) Varaya

Please try to answer questions like "why you need live SE if after heal you need to wait for HoT anyway?" or "point to playing a SE to high lvl if in C5 it has zero end game use?"

Belophan

09-09-2006, 11:53 PM

i did whine alot about the new heals too...

but now since i got the SBs i needed i think its fine ^^

they could have given us some SP in C5 tho so i had enough to leanr all the new skills... :)

MalineII

09-10-2006, 12:47 AM

Well, on a positive side note Prophecy of Wind got a passive boost in C5 thanks to the re-emergence of daggers - some of them don't want the slow-motion from CoV or PoF.

Still, the one spell hardly makes up for the empty stretch between 58 and 75+.

Nagh

09-10-2006, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Copyed from another thread :
Please try to answer questions like "why you need live SE if after heal you need to wait for HoT anyway?" or "point to playing a SE to high lvl if in C5 it has zero end game use?"

[/ QUOTE ]

It was and still the best combination of skills in 1 char to support any attacker class.
It get almost all the buffs you reall need. Haste2+acumen3 you can get in potions, vr and emp - not.
It got recharge and good heals.

Before c5 what was the sole reason to have another type of healer for pve? EE? Bishop? Se could do everything just fine.
Buffers? ) You know, I saw many times PP got booted out of group or not taken in and group was going only with one se and pack of potion, to maximize exp.

Now they give for gimped EE and Bishops reasons to be wanted. Something they can do and se not just to balance it out and make this classes also wanted in PVE and not only for some strange reasons.

Greater heal is still enough, when used right. And even its now better then was before, because u can add extra hp for 15sec even when hp fully healed, just for situations when it may start to drop. It very useful in pvp also.

So what you are complaining about? EE and Bishops now not useless class it is the matter of complain? Jealous? Envy?

And just to clear it.
Situation: You have dd ready and no support at all. Now you can get only one support char.

What class it will be - SE, PP, EE, Bishop, WRC?

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Please try to answer questions like "why you need live SE if after heal you need to wait for HoT anyway?" or "point to playing a SE to high lvl if in C5 it has zero end game use?"

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/race_darkelf_skill.html?my_class=dark_elf_shillien _saint

Please tell me how it is any different from playing a prophet to these levels.

Wait wait...you get better heals >.>

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please try to answer questions like "why you need live SE if after heal you need to wait for HoT anyway?" or "point to playing a SE to high lvl if in C5 it has zero end game use?"

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/race_darkelf_skill.html?my_class=dark_elf_shillien _saint

Please tell me how it is any different from playing a prophet to these levels.

Wait wait...you get better heals >.>

[/ QUOTE ]
You almost got it.And i think you know how exactly prophets are "played" at these levels.Class with good buffs and bad heals is senteced to be boxed.Prophets are best example.Now SE's are joining them.If you or any one here thinks that i (or most SE's) has started their character to play buffer ...You are very mistaken.The prophets fate was very good example not to follow.Or you know SE that can buff heal and even recharge 5+ people group ?If so then make them come out and share their invaluable knowlege with the whiners like me and we will shut up imediatly.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 03:22 AM

People that use SEs as the main buffer usually hunt in (for the group) easy spots with a VR tank and without nukers - think BD/SwS/Spoiler/[randomarcher]/[randomarcher]/[SE]. I've seen SEs do rather well in groups like that, but basically if you have a nuker in there (or a tank that does not pull so well that CC is plainly unnecessary) it won't work out.

Of course, challenging spots are pretty much out of the question.

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 03:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Or you know SE that can buff heal and even recharge 5+ people group?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooo one support class should handle everything for everyone with the best buffs in a 9 man party? Ummm puff puff pass.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 04:23 AM

Shkura (excuse me, I can't spell that whole thing ;_;) was saying that people going on about how an SE can buff, heal and recharge are forgetting that even though they have all these abilities, they can not perform them all in a party at the same time - it's just like a summoner. Of course they can do arcane damage, but not at the same time as physical damage, and certainly not at the same time as buffing.

Varaya

09-10-2006, 04:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or you know SE that can buff heal and even recharge 5+ people group?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooo one support class should handle everything for everyone with the best buffs in a 9 man party? Ummm puff puff pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know how it was meant, no need for remarks like that.

Up to now, SE could

a.) buff - two good buffs, one of them not unique since BD and WC have it, too - the rest a subset of what the Prophet has, lacking in lots of areas (mdef buff, resists apart from resist wind, no haste, no btb/bts, no shield buffs, in C5 no greater might/shield). So SE is a good buffer for very small exp parties like duo/trio in a catacomb, where people pop haste2 pots and people do not need "perfect" buffs. Prophet as the pure buffer of course should have better buffs, no complaint there.

b.) heal - in c4, heals were good in pve, in most cases comparale to bishop heals, but pretty much useless in pvp. So SE could function very well as a healer in pve, as long as the SE did not have to recharge/buff.

c.) recharge - in c4 EE/SE could recharge about the same. The EE had better mp regen, but not by THAT much. The EE could go for longer, but in most situations you had to do some kind of break anyway eventually, so it did not matter that much.

Now in C5, the situation is:

a.) SE can still buff well in small pve parties. Greater might/shield are missing, but it is not that necessary when duoing/trioing. SE does not have trance, but root works well enough when you do not get uber large pulls. In large parties, the new skills will probably be wanted, though (resist unholy against mobs, trance for crowd control, clarity to reduce downtime). So C5 is a slight nerf in buffing capability, but SE are still very good for small groups.

b.) Heals are definitely only 2nd rate now. Absolutely useless in pvp, and in high level full group exp areas people will want a "real" healer in their parties, unless the party is super powerful and has fantastic kill speed. I think nobody can deny that C5 is a big nerf for SE heals, and that NCSoft's intention is to make SE backup healers - which means that you usually should have another healer to do the "real" healing.

c.) SE still can recharge, but EE is far far better at it now. Clarity makes EE capable of recharging themselves from lvl 58 on (or whenever they get the buff). Also the clarity buff makes other people in the party use less mp in the first place, so less recharges will be necessary. If you need mp in your party - get a EE. SE can recharge, yes, but it is also second rate now.

So what do we end up with? What is the SE good at? Seems pretty simple to me. SE is supposed to be a buffer/healer for small parties where people walk from one mob to the next and do not do any large pulls which would require heavy healing. That is - pretty much the same stuff you would use a Prophet for: out of party buffing (SE lvl 58 has all basic buffs plus emp3 and vr3). No need to get a higher level SE, the heals should be good enough at that level. Only when you play a nuker and need a recharger you need to lvl the SE higher. Apart from better recharges, I do not see any reason anymore to level a SE to 7x. And the last recharge skill levels are at 74, so why go higher than that?

Now, Luke, tell me why SE were overpowered and needed a nerf. In my opinion, the old heals should have stayed the same, EE and Bishop should have received the major heals (less mp cost and more hp healed, good deal), and SE should have received some more loving for pvp, not only the pretty pointless mana burn skill.

Tarun

09-10-2006, 04:55 AM

I can't speak for normal parties, but as far as aoe goes dance of vampire did not "replace" vr as it stacks. That's like saying focus and dw is useless because of hunter and fire.

SE is still the very best class I can duo with, all that's changed as far as aoe goes is for the big parties you actually need a bishop now, as the SE can't cover both buffs and heals.

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 05:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
b.) Heals are definitely only 2nd rate now. Absolutely useless in pvp, and in high level full group exp areas people will want a "real" healer in their parties, unless the party is super powerful and has fantastic kill speed. I think nobody can deny that C5 is a big nerf for SE heals, and that NCSoft's intention is to make SE backup healers - which means that you usually should have another healer to do the "real" healing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This right here. It makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. Running around with VR 7, there is no need for heals. Most of my parties had the SE never using 1/4 of its mana on heals in a round.

Standard full pt, 1 healer 1 buffer (and either play with what the other doesnt have)

Best melee pt combo WAS WC/Bishop.
Best melee pt combo is now WC/Bishop.
No change.

Best nuker pt combo was EE/SE.
Best nuker pt combo is now EE/SE.
No change.

Best small pt support healer SE (VR/focus/DW/emp are all the best buffs in game).
Best small pt support healer is now SE.
VR still ends the need for massive healing, and you don't heal spam in small pt anyways. You go mob to mob and there's no "mass damage" to change the way you need to heal.

The only effect a heal over time (which heals in total for more than before) could ever have, is if you have to cast heals more often than once per 15 seconds. If this was the case, then in the old party system you'd burn up your mana anyways. So your ability to heal in party doesn't change. You have to hunt in a good area, but honestly, if you're pulling that much aggro and spamming that much mana, you shouldn't be hunting there. As a tank, I have yet to see where this change has even once effected a party I was in. If anything, it saved the healer mana because his total heal value was greater.

PvE heals were 100% UNAFFECTED by this nerf.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 05:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PvE heals were 100% UNAFFECTED by this nerf.

[/ QUOTE ]
Tell that to BD who was m crited right after receiving my "ubah" heal and lacked like 300 hp to survive.Will you go to ToI 10+ , Stacato Nest , FoG , IT L room , well all places whe can occur "oh -_- -_- -_-!!!!one" situation with SE as main healer?"No PVE nerf"?Yeah right...
Just for record - i hate small groups because they are boring.And most small groups grinds in non dangerous places and have enough boxed support.

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 05:58 AM

A SE didn't belong as main healer in any of those groups anyway. That was the point of the heal changes IMO, making people look for the dedicated healers instead of the jack of all trades.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 06:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A SE didn't belong as main healer in any of those groups anyway. That was the point of the heal changes IMO, making people look for the dedicated healers instead of the jack of all trades.

[/ QUOTE ]
Such joy seeing another support class nerfed.Thank you.And i hope NCSoft finds the way to make EE/bishops perfect boxes like they did to SE's.
Care to show me burning letters in the sky saying "SE's are not main healers".Or at least something similar said by NCSoft?
I have played my SE as main healer in large groups so this heal nerf is game over for my SE.

Tarun

09-10-2006, 07:07 AM

I'd say the bishop being a pure healer, the prophet being a pure buffer, but the SE and EE doing both is your burning letters.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 07:10 AM

I'd say the whole "test of reformer" thing is a pretty darn big indication.

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 07:10 AM

Maybe you didn't notice but I have both a bishop and a SE. SE's have SO MUCH going for them they just can't do it all, that's my point. They can't buff a whole party (or much over 3 or so) AND heal AND recharge. They have a spot just like every class out there.

To cry omg I give up after being THE preferred support class for 2 Chronicles is just silly, IMO.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 07:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you didn't notice but I have both a bishop and a SE. SE's have SO MUCH going for them they just can't do it all, that's my point. They can't buff a whole party (or much over 3 or so) AND heal AND recharge. They have a spot just like every class out there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me what spot exactly?
To be main buffer?Have not seen that situation in ages.Every one and their mum is boxing prophet/SE and boxes are "prefered" main buffers.
Main healer?Cant do that anymore.
Main recharger?Melee groups dont need that and every selfrespecting nuker has box for that.And i cant take "powergrinder" nuker playstyle.
Just try leveling your SE to higher levels to understand how "usefull" they are.

[ QUOTE ]
To cry omg I give up after being THE preferred support class for 2 Chronicles is just silly, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coments on this.I dont want to be banned from these boards for insulting some one.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 07:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say the whole "test of reformer" thing is a pretty darn big indication.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wait wait.On my paladin i was doing Test of Healer.WHERE IS MY MAJOR HEAL?????

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 08:12 AM

Ok see that's something entirely different. You're comparing live SE with a boxed SE, I'm comparing just an SE no matter how it's grouped.

You said it yourself, all nukers has a boxed SE "for that"... that's how valuable the class is.

If you feel like sending me flames over this go ahead and do it in PM or something. I just don't see how it's my fault or the SE's skill sets fault that everyone boxes a SE.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 08:25 AM

It's the SE's skillset fault that they get boxed because they get all their candy at level 40-58 as opposed to later on - a bishop increases in value every few levels, all an SE does is get a bigger MP pool and slightly higher recharges - and of course, as of C5 finally a prophecy worth looking forward to.

It really is bad design that a class gains "all it's good for" at 58 - basically a balancing mistake made in C2 for both prophets and SEs, in not allowing buffs to scale up higher and higher and introducing the effective defensive buffs against them for EEs.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 08:29 AM

I see now.Maybe for you its zero diference is that SE live or boxed but for some one who is playing SE as his main...The last thing valuable thing that live SE could offer to group was heals.
When NCSoft finds the way to turn EE and bishops to perfect boxes , maybe then you will understand what i meant...

MalineII

09-10-2006, 08:35 AM

Well, the most valueable thing any non-boxed healer, buffer, DD, tank or otherwise will offer a group is their brain.

No box will heal better than you - in fact, the difficulty of handling the new heal distinguishes you over a boxed character. You got a bump up in crowd control (sleep is now less relevance, making root and windshackle suddenly attractive again - did you realise that windshackle decreases a mob's attempts to stun before it dies?), and so on.

You say you don't want to play smart parties, but that's where all-around characters shine - and in my personal experience, the specialised role mana management forces on you in big groups can be much more boring than a good, active small party. I've not known them to be boring.

Yes, relearning the playstyle from scratch up sucks. It sucks badly, I'd know (haha Seraphim) - but saying "I'm no better than a box" is nonsense unless you play really horribly.

PS: I still think bishops and EEs should stop being bitter about SEs - it's better to be a shoddy class looking towards a glorious endgame than having your high point at 58 and realising it's only going down from there.

Lord Chaos

09-10-2006, 08:35 AM

Well, its NCSofts fault for just not being able to figure out how to design the support classes properly.

The problem with this heal nerf is that it again like the sleep nerf, is a nerf that hits the wrong crowds, gives the "bad SE"'s a further advantage over non bad ones (automatic HoT management, vs. manual HoT management, automatic wins in almost all cases).

The answer would have been to instead of trying to nerf SE's, they should have thought about more ways of improving the EE and Bishop. Clarity was a step in the right direction, but give EE's another specific skill, add 2-3 more powerful skills to the Bishop and things would have been much better.

Lord Chaos

09-10-2006, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No box will heal better than you

[/ QUOTE ]

It will actually. And the bad ones even better.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 08:38 AM

Well, NCSoft thought this nerf was only relevant for PvP I think - thus touting it as a boost ("better heal power" my [ommited]!).

I personally still think a live vs a boxed (not botted) SE will perform better, and that now the difference will be much more noticable - but yeah, heals were under- not overpowered, so boosting the weak classes here for internal balance would have been much better.

ETA: Not a box. A bot, yes. A box, no.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-10-2006, 09:20 AM

Actually when the boyfriend of my CL is boxing his SE on another PC its almost as good me.While in C4 live SE was needed in dangerous places right now both live and boxed SE's in dangerous places can only buff.And guess which one is better for only buffing?Especially when you already have WC for buffs and WC are far better buffer at 70+.
Places like Hot Springs , WoA entrance ect. do not require live SE.If you get invited into such group is because they are doing you a favor , not because they need live SE.

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 09:32 AM

A live SE will of course do much, much better than a "boxed" one. Now the "auto" ones are another story, in pve those are just as good if not better, which is lame on all accounts. This goes for EE, SE, Bishop.

But I agree with Maline that the SE's were given too many GREAT skills far too early. Empower at 25? VR at what... 30? They still have be levelled up with the rest of their party though or recharges are useless.

You're more than welcome to wish boxed status on a bishop, only after we get a few chronicles of being awesome though.

Mortova

09-10-2006, 09:44 AM

So deal with it, stop crying, and move on.

SE = Buffer, 2nd Healer
EE = Healer, 2nd Buffer

Duh.

This changes nothing, there are still 20 SE's to every Bishop/EE anyway. So your BD friend got M.critted, thats bad luck, not a conspiracy, there should be few defenses for a magic crit, its just one of those risky things.

You may have been the main healer, having it easy ever since you got VR, but omg, now you have to get a Better healer class or PAY ATTENTION (not really directed at you, you get my point).

EE's & Bishops have fely how you felt now for ages, deal with it like we have and change your play style to fit the implemented changes.

Carmaine

09-10-2006, 10:11 AM

Firstly, the only reason there is more SE's is because there are more nukers, as people have previously said, a lot of nukers box SE's. Get rid of the nukers and get rid of the boxed SE's, they wont' really play live SE's.

Secondly, I've known people who box characters that play much better than live ones. Not saying the live ones were bad players, i'm saying it's all dependent on how fast your computer is and how fast you are. Are you joking? healing isn't that hard to do, it's not like in other games where mobs are hitting you for 1k dmg and quads that where a live healer is more needed. Even in games like that, i've known a guy who quad boxed and did so extremly efficent. So your argument that a live healer is always greater than a box healer is only partially true.

Thirdly, SE's only get a single buff that no one else gets, Empower. Is it justification enough to nerf heals for that one buff? don't give me the argument that VR is suitable, give me a break, get a warcyrier, they do just as well, may get VR lv 3 later down the road, but they also have haste and acumen. I know most groups when i group as my SE they either have a prophet or a warcryier doing buffs, which leaves me to healer and recharger and one buff, empower.

Fourthly, the negative sides, you bishops and EE's complain that you suck in pve, or no one wants you in pve, like your arguments, it's full of holes, you excell in pvp, look, you sacrafice desireability in pve for desireability in pvp. How many of you want a SE healing you in pvp over a EE or bishop? I mind you, EE's get plenty of buffs too, just not as good as a SE , but they can recharge and they can sleep. Don't give me the root statement, root still lets a archer attack, root still lets a nuker nuke. Sleep stops it completely. Sure, it stops them from moving, but if you still can't get there before they kill you, then you're still dead are you not?

As for you Ellie, quit complaining as you said earlier about it costing a spirit ore, if you think it's that bad, then you wouldn't mind if SE's got the heal, i'd heal for a spirit ore if it didn't give me a heal over time at the end of it for a more efficent heal.

As for people thinking the heal over time is more efficent..indeed, it is , for small parties, but i'll give you a clue, not everyone likes to do small parties, the past heal let us do larger parties and have fun, not EVERYONE likes small parties, get that through your thick skulls.

And one last thing, you cannot compare SE desireabillity because nukers want to box them. Live SE's are well, live not boxed in a solo play. Get off your high horse and not consider boxed characters for once. If you talk about boxed, then what about melee boxing prophets? what about the new rise of warcryiers being boxed, i know i've seen plenty!

A better solution was, keep heals the way they were, give SE's a heal over time but single target only, STRICTLY heal over time, give bishops and EE the better heals, give EE's clarity.

And lastly, my rez only does 20%, how about bishops and EE's? Last i checked, theirs was significantly better.

afkanddead

09-10-2006, 10:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I see now.Maybe for you its zero diference is that SE live or boxed but for some one who is playing SE as his main...The last thing valuable thing that live SE could offer to group was heals.
When NCSoft finds the way to turn EE and bishops to perfect boxes , maybe then you will understand what i meant...

[/ QUOTE ]lol, what about EE's and bishops who have had 5 chornicles of basic worthlessness? SE is buffer not a main healer and since their is an actual healer class(s) I think its common sense they should have better heals.

IMO this is how it should have been from the start. Healers get sleep and the best heals, buffers get the best buffs I dont see where the complaints can come in.

If they kept heals how they were then they would have had to give healers heals that give like...2.5k hp since greater heal used to give 1500hp on a restore. It just realy doesnt work.

Carmaine

09-10-2006, 10:34 AM

Lord Chaos

09-10-2006, 10:37 AM

EE's get major heals.

And why does Lineage 2 always has to be about "HA HA, you had it good, so its your turn to suffer", like its some sort of bagball of pain being passed around, instead of strengthening the classes to make them ALL good and fun to play in their way, it would have been way better to enhance Bishops more and give EE another useful skill ontop of Clarity.

afkanddead

09-10-2006, 10:41 AM

Explain why there are a lot more se's and will continue to be a lot more SE's than warcryers? If you are going to say they only get one exclusive buff you need to look at the other classes that have the shared buff. Vampiric rage is given to one other class and that class has much worse heals (do they even have any?) than SE's.

No, EE's and Bishops are defensive and party protection oriented. SE's and Prophets are offensive oriented and they have offense oriented skills. AND WHY DO YOU HAVE TO USE CAPS I CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT IF YOU TYPE NORMALLY.

Yes, at higher levels everyone wants Brez so % of rez is a moot point. Castle sieges now have tokens that dont force you to lose xp so that truly makes % rez moot.

Proph's get extra skills but dont get emp/vr/greater heal and greater heal still does a good job and is fine for any pve situation.

There are different classes for different situations. There are offensive buffers, defensive buffers/healers (which should be categorized as a defensive type skill). They are just fixing a problem that should have been fixed long ago. They finally gave EE's and Bishops some use. If SE's are sad that they arent the all in one package thats too bad, they were never meant to be.

afkanddead

09-10-2006, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
EE's get major heals.

And why does Lineage 2 always has to be about "HA HA, you had it good, so its your turn to suffer", like its some sort of bagball of pain being passed around, instead of strengthening the classes to make them ALL good and fun to play in their way, it would have been way better to enhance Bishops more and give EE another useful skill ontop of Clarity.

[/ QUOTE ]If they kept greater heal the same that would defeat the point of what they were trying to do. They were trying to make the healers the healers again and thats exactly what they did. If heals were kept the same then it wouldnt fix anything and everyone would just use an SE because their heals are great and their buffs are much better than any EE or bish which just continues the problem cycle.

Ledaa

09-10-2006, 10:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Explain why there are a lot more se's and will continue to be a lot more SE's than warcryers? If you are going to say they only get one exclusive buff you need to look at the other classes that have the shared buff. Vampiric rage is given to one other class and that class has much worse heals (do they even have any?) than SE's.

[/ QUOTE ]
Becouse Althought female WC's got prety good sized breasts we are green and have facial tatoos. On and we got almost nothing for nukers.
Yes, WC do have heals, or at least we had, now our heals dont stack with the HoT part of greater heals, so its not realy worth it to use them most of the time.
May be the fact that we get our buffs about 10-15 lvls later then SE/PP do plays a role in people not whnating us as boxes..

Lord Chaos

09-10-2006, 10:57 AM

Apparently Sithmaster disagrees with you, because he says the SE's heals are now better, lol.

Anyway, there would have been plenty of better ways to balance out the classes, Bishops STILL aren't useful in that fashion, since they only get useful Major Heals until WAY later in the game

Armenua

09-10-2006, 11:01 AM

From what I can see, all the changes in C5 has done is change everything up in such a way it's almost a new ballgame. Everyone is going to have learn all over again how to use their character.

From the new skills that I have been able to learn (still needed sp to get most of them up to par with my level) I almost got nervous going out on my first pve party after C5 debuted. But in the end, i was able to keep my people healed and was also discovering new ways of combining the skills to make my own game interesting.

Right now my biggest problem is the limit of 12 items on the hotkey bar. I really hope they implement that 3 bar thingy. I am gonna need it, since I now have 5 kinds of heals, not 3, and mana burn, storm, magical backfire, turn undead, hold undead, might of heaven, purify, vitalize, etc etc... just won't all fit on one. Gonna take a while to figure the best configuration.

Lyds

09-10-2006, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you PLAY a healer? I've been using sps for my heals since they started boosting heals, because it was still far far cheaper than a DD using SS in party or a mage using sps to attack.

And heals for 4 chronicles were instant without spirit ore, it's just bizzare and new. We'll get use to it but yea it's odd as heck having a skill you've used since the beginning of time changed plus adding an extra cost. Or for SE's , their heals use to be just as good as bishops and now they aren't.. takes some adjusting doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually i do PLAY a healer usually a level 78 EE, i have a 73 Bishop, I also have a level 72 SE - I play the EE in all sieges and pvp scenerios, and for all raids my clan does. Heals in Chronicle 5 are instant with spirit ore, you also have an instant heal without spirit ore, and an instant + hot heal without spirit ore, not to mention an immediate casting heal with no spirit ore and instant heals. SE's got shafted in the "new heals" area, but for a bishop to complain about getting an awesome new skill just because it costs them a little more when an SE got absolutely nothing is just completely moronic.

Its funny, i don't hear any elven elders crying, I suppose its the difference between giving a poor man $100 and giving a rich man $100.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 11:21 AM

The thing is that EEs and Bishops haven't had 5 chronicles of basic worthlessness - it was always beyond dispute that nobody would want an SE as their healer/main buffer for PvP.

The PvE imbalance has been resolved, but the SE remains balancing on the precariously short end of the balance stick in PvP and high level gameplay.

PS:
[ QUOTE ]
May be the fact that we get our buffs about 10-15 lvls later then SE/PP do plays a role in people not whnating us as boxes..

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely the beef with buffers. WCs, getting their buffs late in chronicles got them late in levels because NCSoft realised the mistake they made with SEs and prophets. Now they're starting to fix it for PPs and apparently tried to fix it for SEs with wild magic (and VR 4? 1% extra, whoopdedoo). Maybe they'll keep going - or maybe they won't.

And LC, L2 is all about nerfing because of its open PvP aspect - if you keep boosting everyone, PvP will last one or two shots or nuke... wait. It already does.

PPS: And I would totally be for something that cripples my servitor offensively for half a minute leaving it open for attack - my main beef with Erase is being left defense and attackless.

Larielle

09-10-2006, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And lastly, my rez only does 20%, how about bishops and EE's? Last i checked, theirs was significantly better.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can have my high res if you want. Doesn't get you groups, all it does is make people PM you asking you to port halfway across Aden to res them. Oh and you can't use it on yourself of course (scroll/town/20% res for me 90% of the time), I honestly don't see a high level res as a huge benefit for a class.

Ah anyways, onto the real topic. As an EE I quite like the new Greater Heals, they are more MP efficient than they used to be, and unless the tank is taking huge amounts of damage (UD?) they're perfectly fine. If they're taking that much damage regularly, maybe the party should change hunting spot. Or even just slow down a little, pull a little less.

I'm not too bothered by the cost of Major Heal, if we're hunting somewhere that I need to use it a lot, then I won't be meleeing and will save adena on SS instead. It's a decent way to save MP while healing as well, if the group is having troubles.

As far as the SE Vs Others debate. Well since C5 looking at Hindemith's party matching (around my level, low 70s), it seems SEs (usually SE or WC) are wanted about 3 times more than EE/Bishop. This is a slight improvement for EE/Bishop, but it's not really stopping SEs getting groups, they still get more.

Oh and for those SEs that didn't create their chars to be a buffer. Well I didn't create my EE to PvP, but it seems that's the way NCSoft (or the community) want me to go, and for it to be harder for me to find groups.

Mortova

09-10-2006, 12:23 PM

SE's have CHANGED from what they were, they cannot now Buff 5/6 man groups as well as healing/recharging and still keeping alot of their MP.

Get a Warcryer? i would, but they arent that common unlike SE Clone #592645284 i see behind you. Your going to have to re-learn your class because its been balanced now and rightly so.

And to help point out what we are trying to tell you to drive it into YOUR thick skull, if your sad you cant do it all and be everyone's fave healer, TOUGH BEANS YOUR NOT SPOSE TO BE.

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I see now.Maybe for you its zero diference is that SE live or boxed but for some one who is playing SE as his main...The last thing valuable thing that live SE could offer to group was heals.
When NCSoft finds the way to turn EE and bishops to perfect boxes , maybe then you will understand what i meant...

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think I can't box a healer. I can box any class in game that isn't a dd. I've seen tanks, sws, bd, buffers, every single class in this game...boxed except for dds. To suggest that this nerf forced boxed SEs into a better position is just absurd. Players do that, not game design. And when none of them get the 78 prophecy at a siege and our SE does...we will have fun ripping them apart.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 01:44 PM

If VR is as godly as some of you people think it is than it would not be, even now, that difficult to 2 box one just as effectively as a live SE.

The people who seem to support SE taking the hit are the ones who somehow believe we can do it all. We can heal, buff, and recharge all day without downtime. Not true, if the party is just really good and hunting in the right spot maybe we can do the healing and the buffing. But thats only if alot of healing is not needed, and even then you will eventually probably run into downtime. In c4 I was either a healer, or a buffer in the group and rarely did both. Usually I was the healer while a wc was the buffer and I would only toss out wind walk.

So here is c5 and its still not balanced, infact it is worse than what it was. Instead of the SE who could do PVE and only okay in PVP they now can only do PVE. And the Bishop/EE who could before do PVP and only okay at PVE can now do both well?

And everyone should just forget about the mana burn and erase as our "new pvp role" and that we need to think "offensively". If that was the case than SE should have a aoe mana burn instead of a single target, and our mana burn should do as much of a 'damage' to a person's mana bar as a nuker does to our health. Let me beable to take away a single nuker's mana completely in 1 or 2 mana burns and I'll bite. As it stands our new 'pvp' skills are only going to be used by the SE who won't gasp the notion that we are now 100% useless in pvp aside to buff the people who can actually do it.

And there was a reason more than just "because we were playing healer" that an SE would stay far away from the enemies in pvp as possible. Its cause we die faster than any other healer or buffer class. Are we really now expected to run up to the front line and try to root, erase, or mana burn one target, in hopes of helping even barely, when we will be dead in 2 nukes or as now is the situation one backstab of a dagger?

Lord Chaos

09-10-2006, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And LC, L2 is all about nerfing because of its open PvP aspect - if you keep boosting everyone, PvP will last one or two shots or nuke... wait. It already does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats why we got necros in C4 and daggers in C5.

Going up and down like this is just silly unless its a power that ALL AROUND THE BOARD is unbalanced, and heals certainly aren't that.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
can now do both well?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a secondary spot, they were already doing better than you in C4. If only one spot is free for a healer (small parties going into relatively low risk areas), you are still the superior choice.

I never got why 9 man groups not consisting of mostly nukers would let an SE tag along if there was another option - chances are there still isn't another option now, for a while.

PS: As I said - I totally think nerfing heals of all things was ******ation pure. Then again, the major heals supposedly have higher HPS than the old heals, so eh. I'm still all for breaking in the offense in PvP.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:02 PM

If you want to balance out the support classes as they stand now for both pve and pvp you know what they should do?

Bishop and Elven Elder: Keep Bishop and EE's the same. Though they WERE good in both pve and pvp though primarily in pvp I DO NOT object to the new skills they got. You were, and still are the PVP healers.

Prophet: Your buffs rock and you will always be wanted in pve. But what about pvp? You sit back, buff every 20 or when someone dies and you sit. But you have good armor masteries! You can take hits. Lets give you a skill so say you can do some damage with a bow or something. War Cryers can do both buffs and damage! Why can't you? But lets not get selfish here! You are the best buffer in game so your attacking will be considerably less than others. You can't do it all, but at least it gives you something to do after buffing that is beneficial and not just out of boredom!

Shilen Elders: You were good the way you were. Fix the healing and I think everyone who plays an SE main will be happy. But even if the healing is not fixed, since in a way you still can pve with the new greater heal, lets do something for you that at least gives you a new role in pvp since you no longer can keep people alive! How about something so you are not so squishy as well as an offensive skill(s) whether it is physical or magic based. Sound good? Cause lets face it, you can only root one person at a time and that is IF you survive getting close enough to actually cast it. Same with mana burn and erase.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 02:04 PM

"You can only root one person at a time?"

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
can now do both well?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a secondary spot, they were already doing better than you in C4. If only one spot is free for a healer (small parties going into relatively low risk areas), you are still the superior choice.

I never got why 9 man groups not consisting of mostly nukers would let an SE tag along if there was another option - chances are there still isn't another option now, for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, small parties in low risk areas SE are still supperior. If its a small nuker party EMP will let them drop fast enough that you don't have to heal. VR will let your small melee party handle 2 or 3 mobs at once easily since you can root. Any more than that you probably want to look for another support class though. WC can give your melee pretty much the same buffs and even help throw down some damage. Prophets will help the party save money.

In large groups you have much better choices than an SE.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"You can only root one person at a time?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaning per cast. We do not have an aoe root like orcs.

I've played the useless healer/buffer in sieges already. Per party you don't need many, so when all the spots for your class is taken and you have no party you get stuck trying to find something to do. I would try to root in sieges in c3 and c4 and alot of times I got owned before I could root a single person or before I could get away after rooting.

Dying in the name of one root is not a fair trade in my book.

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 02:12 PM

I don't know why people keep bringing up bishop/ee in PVP when like 90% of the game is PVE.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 02:13 PM

90% of people work towards the PvP - I'm sure you know that. What's the point of a well-paved road if it ends in a brick wall?

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why people keep bringing up bishop/ee in PVP when like 90% of the game is PVE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bring it up because this is a pvp game. I don't know figures as to what the majority is playing this game for but I know I play this game for the pvp. Pve in this game is worse than in others.

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 02:18 PM

My point is there's no PVP without PVE. If you go to PVP and lose like 5% and can't get it back, you aren't doing it again are you?

I'm coming from an angle as a person that has lose upwards of 30% at sieges and such.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:24 PM

I think MalineII awnsered to your question better than I could. "What's the point of a well-paved road if it ends in a brick wall?"

I agree that to keep pvping you need to pve. But whats the point of pve if you can't pvp?

Varaya

09-10-2006, 02:31 PM

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 02:35 PM

I'm sorry, could somebody remind me what the two most important siege buffs are in this nuker rerolled world we have? Could it be...empower and WM? You have the same role as any non-nuker/archer. Run around, look like an idiot. You can't heal in sieges...not in good ones. No healer can outheal a team of 5 nukers or archers that assist targets with buffs. The target is dead before anyone can do anything.

Damage has gotten too high in the pvp game. Nobody should grind to 75-78 and get killed in one hit. Your heals aren't broken, they're perfect for pve balance. The solution is not to break the pve balance to fix your pvp balance. Heavy dd pvp damage is broken...not your heals. You're arguing about things that don't matter one bit as long as archers are assisting and critting for 2k per shot.

Varaya

09-10-2006, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think MalineII awnsered to your question better than I could. "What's the point of a well-paved road if it ends in a brick wall?"

I agree that to keep pvping you need to pve. But whats the point of pve if you can't pvp?

[/ QUOTE ]

/agree

Or, in other words, what's the point of lvling up a class when you then just sit at the flags as a glorified empower dispenser while everybody else has fun. And don't give me the BS about mana burn and erase. Yes, it makes sense to run up to a nuker and zap him for 250mp and then get killed. If I do that ten times while the nuker is so polite to just stay around and wait for me, I might actually drain his mp. It's sad, but the best use for a SE at a siege is to sit around, buff emp/wm and recharge the classes who actually can DO something. And actually a lvl 52 SE could do the same job, since EE also have wm and can recharge better anyway.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, could somebody remind me what the two most important siege buffs are in this nuker rerolled world we have? Could it be...empower and WM? You have the same role as any non-nuker/archer. Run around, look like an idiot. You can't heal in sieges...not in good ones. No healer can outheal a team of 5 nukers or archers that assist targets with buffs. The target is dead before anyone can do anything.

Damage has gotten too high in the pvp game. Nobody should grind to 75-78 and get killed in one hit. Your heals aren't broken, they're perfect for pve balance. The solution is not to break the pve balance to fix your pvp balance. Heavy dd pvp damage is broken...not your heals. You're arguing about things that don't matter one bit as long as archers are assisting and critting for 2k per shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that healers have no place in pvp? I've kept people alive with my crappy pvp healing as an SE, even in sieges. And if you think a 'good' siege consists of 5 nukers all attacking one target I would have to disagree. Wouldn't it be kinda wasteful to have 5 nukers on one target? The classes that are capable of taking that many nukers to kill(and even than I think it might be stretching it) are the classes that have to catch up to you. Half that many nukers could take them out in that time easy.

And c5 was all about fixing the pvp, trying to make it less nuker/archer based. Though they apparently though archers were not too powerful in their damage seeing as they didn't get nefed what so ever, and rather made stronger. But even then your melee have so much more they can do now. Your daggers can drop your nukers and archers fast, and with trick they can mess up their targeting so that they have a hard time targeting you or your friends. Same with tanks, they can now keep them from running allowing them to get close as well as pulling their aggro to themselves so that your DD's and other classes have time to really mess people up.

If anything I think healers should be even better in pvp than what they were.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think MalineII awnsered to your question better than I could. "What's the point of a well-paved road if it ends in a brick wall?"

I agree that to keep pvping you need to pve. But whats the point of pve if you can't pvp?

[/ QUOTE ]

/agree

Or, in other words, what's the point of lvling up a class when you then just sit at the flags as a glorified empower dispenser while everybody else has fun. And don't give me the BS about mana burn and erase. Yes, it makes sense to run up to a nuker and zap him for 250mp and then get killed. If I do that ten times while the nuker is so polite to just stay around and wait for me, I might actually drain his mp. It's sad, but the best use for a SE at a siege is to sit around, buff emp/wm and recharge the classes who actually can DO something. And actually a lvl 52 SE could do the same job, since EE also have wm and can recharge better anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

/agree

Maybe NCSoft should incorporate a action similiar to a dwarve's creation shop. We click a button and for a price people can chose buffs and we automatically give it to them! We won't even need to be AT the siege, we can go afk and still do our job.

Thorn

09-10-2006, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think MalineII awnsered to your question better than I could. "What's the point of a well-paved road if it ends in a brick wall?"

I agree that to keep pvping you need to pve. But whats the point of pve if you can't pvp?

[/ QUOTE ]

/agree

Or, in other words, what's the point of lvling up a class when you then just sit at the flags as a glorified empower dispenser while everybody else has fun. And don't give me the BS about mana burn and erase. Yes, it makes sense to run up to a nuker and zap him for 250mp and then get killed. If I do that ten times while the nuker is so polite to just stay around and wait for me, I might actually drain his mp. It's sad, but the best use for a SE at a siege is to sit around, buff emp/wm and recharge the classes who actually can DO something. And actually a lvl 52 SE could do the same job, since EE also have wm and can recharge better anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

/agree

Maybe NCSoft should incorporate a action similiar to a dwarve's creation shop. We click a button and for a price people can chose buffs and we automatically give it to them! We won't even need to be AT the siege, we can go afk and still do our job.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the best suggestions Ive ever seen.

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, could somebody remind me what the two most important siege buffs are in this nuker rerolled world we have? Could it be...empower and WM? You have the same role as any non-nuker/archer. Run around, look like an idiot. You can't heal in sieges...not in good ones. No healer can outheal a team of 5 nukers or archers that assist targets with buffs. The target is dead before anyone can do anything.

Damage has gotten too high in the pvp game. Nobody should grind to 75-78 and get killed in one hit. Your heals aren't broken, they're perfect for pve balance. The solution is not to break the pve balance to fix your pvp balance. Heavy dd pvp damage is broken...not your heals. You're arguing about things that don't matter one bit as long as archers are assisting and critting for 2k per shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that healers have no place in pvp? I've kept people alive with my crappy pvp healing as an SE, even in sieges. And if you think a 'good' siege consists of 5 nukers all attacking one target I would have to disagree. Wouldn't it be kinda wasteful to have 5 nukers on one target? The classes that are capable of taking that many nukers to kill(and even than I think it might be stretching it) are the classes that have to catch up to you. Half that many nukers could take them out in that time easy.

And c5 was all about fixing the pvp, trying to make it less nuker/archer based. Though they apparently though archers were not too powerful in their damage seeing as they didn't get nefed what so ever, and rather made stronger. But even then your melee have so much more they can do now. Your daggers can drop your nukers and archers fast, and with trick they can mess up their targeting so that they have a hard time targeting you or your friends. Same with tanks, they can now keep them from running allowing them to get close as well as pulling their aggro to themselves so that your DD's and other classes have time to really mess people up.

If anything I think healers should be even better in pvp than what they were.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 nukes, 5k damage. Actually, that's not enough to kill the kiting classes. What buffs are your archers wearing? 5 nukes might not even be enough. Assistin targets is the key to effective combat. Even if you're overnuking, every target that dies is one less target shooting back. The only time heals should come into effect is if the enemy is screwing up.

Yes, I am saying healers have no current role in sieges...certainly not healing, maybe rezzing. That doesn't mean you boost their heals to make them pvp healers. That doesn't fix the problem at all. My archer pt is still going to mow yours down...especially if your pt isn't assisting.

Heal for 10k hp and cp for 1 mana...that still isn't going to make you a useful healer in pvp unless the other side is screwing up.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 03:57 PM

I am not arguing that assisting isn't important in pvp. But that majority of what you are fighting are not tanks and do not have 5,000 cp and hp. And nukers only do 1000 damage? I would think it to be more, especially to the classes that do not have anti-magic skill to go with their jewels. I remember being nuked for more than 1k and I do have anti-magic. But maybe I was mistaken? My jewels are not the best, mix of BO and Phoenix since I am not rich, but I'm haivng a hard time thinking that it would make that much of a difference if someone has full majestic and no anti-magic.

Either way, I think it would be more beneficial if you had say 3 people assisting off each other and take the time for a 2nd nuke if you have to but end up with more people getting attacked, since 3 people would be plenty for most.

But then again, maybe I am mistaken.

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 04:04 PM

I've been 1 shotted at a siege at 75, with +3 maj unsealed jewels, and +3 robe set. There's no outhealing that. (7800 crit). I'm finding myself less and less useful at sieges and it's depressing to see a siege or pvp group roll out without a healer and still do pretty well.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've been 1 shotted at a siege at 75, with +3 maj unsealed jewels, and +3 robe set. There's no outhealing that. (7800 crit). I'm finding myself less and less useful at sieges and it's depressing to see a siege or pvp group roll out without a healer and still do pretty well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I would usually be the only healer in war parties, and while without me they probably would of still done pretty well I 'have' been a help though.

The damage *is* a little extreme for the heals but that doesn't mean we are not useless. Or were not in my SE's case cause we are now. But even if our heal allows the target to take one extra nuke than normal I think that is worth it, since in that one extra nuke you have 1 more change to kill your target.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 04:28 PM

Damage needs a very serious nerf. :/

EllieBelly

09-10-2006, 05:09 PM

Well some of it may be to enhance other classes, like I hear nukers complaining that they can't do jack to SwS's because they resist like crazy with their warding songs or whatever. It's just annoying to have the best heals and still lose someone because 1-2 shots and their hp is gone.

MalineII

09-10-2006, 05:10 PM

Well, there's no warding song against critical hits for some obscure reason.

I honestly believe stacking critical power buffs to be much more problematic than nukers. They unbalance PvE and totally ruin PvP.

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Damage needs a very serious nerf. :/

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, this is the problem that needs to be addressed, not the heal changes. Similar symptoms.

Isdin

09-10-2006, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Damage needs a very serious nerf. :/

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, this is the problem that needs to be addressed, not the heal changes. Similar symptoms.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is more wrong than just damage. The game is far from being perfect but changing the heals has just hurt this more. Both damage and the current heal change needs to be adressed as well as other issues.

SithMaster

09-10-2006, 09:19 PM

The heal changes set apart the bishop and ee class from the stronger buffers. That's the whole point, get over it.

Mortova

09-11-2006, 12:35 AM

SE & PP = Stronger Buffers, Can still heal a little.
EE & Bish = Stronger Healers, Can still buff a little.

To quote Sith. "Get over it"

Taraza

09-11-2006, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there's no warding song against critical hits for some obscure reason.

I honestly believe stacking critical power buffs to be much more problematic than nukers. They unbalance PvE and totally ruin PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

well shields are pretty much the anti-crit. They block more often against crits and EE buff significantly increases shield block rate/def

Lord Chaos

09-11-2006, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The heal changes set apart the bishop and ee class from the stronger buffers. That's the whole point, get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you yourself said in another thread that this heal change makes the SE better, so by your own words it would be making the gap even smaller.

Make up your mind.

Krissa

09-11-2006, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
b.) Heals are definitely only 2nd rate now. Absolutely useless in pvp, and in high level full group exp areas people will want a "real" healer in their parties, unless the party is super powerful and has fantastic kill speed. I think nobody can deny that C5 is a big nerf for SE heals, and that NCSoft's intention is to make SE backup healers - which means that you usually should have another healer to do the "real" healing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still, no Purify and no GGH from EEs and no Recharge from Bishops. And SE+EE (or even Bishop+SE) group is more attractive than Bishop+EE.

[ QUOTE ]
c.) SE still can recharge, but EE is far far better at it now. Clarity makes EE capable of recharging themselves from lvl 58 on (or whenever they get the buff).

[/ QUOTE ]
With Clarity 1, it's better just to sit.

[ QUOTE ]
Also the clarity buff makes other people in the party use less mp in the first place, so less recharges will be necessary. If you need mp in your party - get a EE. SE can recharge, yes, but it is also second rate now.

[/ QUOTE ]
You cannot both heal and recharge... well, at least without Emp or VR.

[ QUOTE ]
So what do we end up with? What is the SE good at?

[/ QUOTE ]
Still, at finding their groups by looking into the party matching window. There is still greater need for SEs than the needs for Bishops or EEs combined.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, Luke, tell me why SE were overpowered and needed a nerf. In my opinion, the old heals should have stayed the same, EE and Bishop should have received the major heals (less mp cost and more hp healed, good deal), and SE should have received some more loving for pvp, not only the pretty pointless mana burn skill.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you were the most chosen PvE healer (more than the two others combined) in 3 chronicles in a row, a huge nerf was expected. But in my opinion, they should have nerfed VR.

Krissa

09-11-2006, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Tell that to BD who was m crited right after receiving my "ubah" heal and lacked like 300 hp to survive.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about a BD who was m critted right before receiving your heal?

[ QUOTE ]
Will you go to ToI 10+ , Stacato Nest , FoG , IT L room , well all places whe can occur "oh -_- -_- -_-!!!!one" situation with SE as main healer?"No PVE nerf"?Yeah right...
Just for record - i hate small groups because they are boring.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you wanted to be a Bishop, but have chosen the class that was easier to level, right?

Nagh

09-11-2006, 02:08 AM

Whine more )

EE & Bishops now got love )

Whinners! REROLL NOW )

Tiffy

09-11-2006, 05:14 AM

Coming from a few SE friends I've heard that my Prophet can cast heals that are as good & fast as a level 52 SE now. Considering that neither an SE or Prophet are main healers, I think the new healing system is fair. Except the fact that it takes Spirit Ore's to cast it, that will get expensive. :eek:

EllieBelly

09-11-2006, 05:22 AM

Yeah it's sort of a bizzare situation, the major heals, excluding the cost of spirit are, cost a lot less than the old greater heals and heal for a bit more. For example the old greater heal cost 120 and major heal costs 80. That's pretty sweet. Now I just have to remember to have a ton of ore at all times.

Tiffy

09-11-2006, 05:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah it's sort of a bizzare situation, the major heals, excluding the cost of spirit are, cost a lot less than the old greater heals and heal for a bit more. For example the old greater heal cost 120 and major heal costs 80. That's pretty sweet. Now I just have to remember to have a ton of ore at all times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hows the price of Spirit Ores anyways?

Ledaa

09-11-2006, 05:49 AM

Around 400a each. Also got like 20 weight each.

Isdin

09-11-2006, 06:17 AM

Why do people see SE as mainly a buffer? They are suppost to do both. Now a prophet who is suppost to be solely a buffer can heal just as well as them? Isn't that a little extreme? Might as well just take away our heals even more and give us alot of unique buffs so we are sole buffers. Then take away all of the EE buffs so they can be sole healers along side the bishop.

Do you people who tell us to stop whining even play an SE above lvl 62? What about as your main? And since c5 I've been seeing SE in the party matching system and never getting a party, I'm one of them. I've only had one true party since c5 came out. But since I'm no longer in an alliance cause of c5 its partially my fault. If I would of stayed in one I could get parties. And if I still couldn't I should leave that alliance. So how about the EE and Bishops who would complain that they could not get a party get into a good alliance that will help them level so that they can be rewarded with the classes in pvp?

And don't worry, I know alot of SE mains that are rerolling to new characters, and the ones I know who are not rerolling are the ones who only have 1 lvl to wait till they sub. Either way they will be 1 less SE too. But at least the server has their 2 boxes.

MalineII

09-11-2006, 06:21 AM

Can heal just as well as them is a gross overstatement except maybe at level 52 or so, and everyone here hopefully knows this.

By the way, my main's an ES. :) What happened to us in C4 was a lot worse of a reroll than what they did to you - SEs turned from healer/buffer to buffer, ES sorta turned from DD to buffer, which was weird as all hell.

Tiffy

09-11-2006, 06:26 AM

I don't mind the pricing of Spirit Ores since my Prophet wont use them much except for mass PVP anyways.

Actually my clans co-leader's SE is his main & past 62. Both an SE & Prophet are meant to be diverse classes that can play both healer & buffer, with out being a main at either. I like that about those classes, and even if you think these two classes wont be wanted in C5 & everyone should re-roll, I still feel a lot of nukers, Raid Groups, PVE Groups will want SE. Especially an SE & Prophet in the group, you get all the good buffs from both & with two of them, you have the choice of 1 buffing, 1 healing, them both sharing the responsibilites & MP left over for recharge etc.. :p

Krissa

09-11-2006, 06:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people see SE as mainly a buffer? They are suppost to do both. Now a prophet who is suppost to be solely a buffer can heal just as well as them?

[/ QUOTE ]
They cannot. They compare their lvl35 heals to the immediate part of SEs lvl52 heals. They forget that SEs:
* can still level their heals further,
* have HoT effect on their lvl52 heal,
* have group heal with HoT effect,
* and have that lvl35 heal, too.
And SEs' main "heal" - their VR buff - remains unchanged, and still unavailable for a Prophet.

Tiffy

09-11-2006, 06:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do people see SE as mainly a buffer? They are suppost to do both. Now a prophet who is suppost to be solely a buffer can heal just as well as them?

[/ QUOTE ]
They cannot. They compare their lvl35 heals to the immediate part of SEs lvl52 heals. They forget that SEs:
* can still level their heals further,
* have HoT effect on their lvl52 heal,
* have group heal with HoT effect,
* and have that lvl35 heal, too.
And SEs' main "heal" - their VR buff - remains unchanged, and still unavailable for a Prophet.

[/ QUOTE ]
As Prophets have heals as well, but aren't updated since level 35, & we have buffs like Acumen, Zerk, BTS, etc.. that SE's don't have! :p

Ventx

09-11-2006, 07:52 AM

As far as crystal usage on the major heals goes. This should have been implemented along time ago. Healers barely used any adena while exping. They ended up becoming the richest by hunting alone. Now healers have to use adena when they do something, still not as much as a dagger spamming attack on mobs.

MalineII

09-11-2006, 07:53 AM

Heh, prophets can still buff and sit. If I just want to buffleech I already have to spend a bunch of money on crystals, that always ticked me off.

Warper

09-11-2006, 08:21 AM

[quote=SithMaster]Actually...I have yet to find the pt that needed major heals outside pvp.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have yet to find pt that needs major heals in pvp.
Pole party will find a use for major heals, parties in new areas and IT find them useful as well. After all, major heal costs 30% less mp, so you can go hunt with prophet/bishop combo, and without any VR.

EllieBelly
As far as I know, developers prefer not to change one learned skill to another one for certain class. Instead they invent new skill with similar properties.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as crystal usage on the major heals goes. This should have been implemented along time ago. Healers barely used any adena while exping.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now if you heal with major heals only you'll be at about 0 for regular hunting spots. Buffs (including VR) will change it to positive adena over hunting, but still it's not that big amount. Anyway you have an option not to use adena at all hutning in easier areas (yet less effective, but still quite good).

[ QUOTE ]
They ended up becoming the richest by hunting alone. Now healers have to use adena when they do something, still not as much as a dagger spamming attack on mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you talk for healer hunting alone, costs are not so appealing :(
As far as I kill a mob I use twice as much ss, since my Patk is twice as low... comparing to support fighters (!). There is only possibility to overcome SwS PAtk - STR+ build in conjunction with PL and higher grade weapon. And it only calls for most gimped figher class in the whole game.
In addition to spending adena on ss solo healer has to spend money on heals - like 2-3 bsps heals over a single mob of his/her level. It costs more than any melee character with buffs.
If you think nuker-like solo is more attractive... I'd not argue about how hard is it to find undead-only area, I'd not argue about mana regen speed (franly, healers are gimps when it comes to mana regen), I'd not argue about ineffective recharges (nukers again have the shaft). There just one word that makes huge difference - tatoo. Nukers damage is 1,5 times higher even if healer has all buffs. It means... 1,5 times more adena spent on sps. Generally nuking costs are about 90% of adena drops.
It was always better for healers to stay in groups in regards of adena drops.

afkanddead

09-11-2006, 08:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see now.Maybe for you its zero diference is that SE live or boxed but for some one who is playing SE as his main...The last thing valuable thing that live SE could offer to group was heals.
When NCSoft finds the way to turn EE and bishops to perfect boxes , maybe then you will understand what i meant...

[/ QUOTE ]lol, what about EE's and bishops who have had 5 chornicles of basic worthlessness? SE is buffer not a main healer and since their is an actual healer class(s) I think its common sense they should have better heals.

IMO this is how it should have been from the start. Healers get sleep and the best heals, buffers get the best buffs I dont see where the complaints can come in.

If they kept heals how they were then they would have had to give healers heals that give like...2.5k hp since greater heal used to give 1500hp on a restore. It just realy doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that is one problem which always comes up. That people say "EE and Bishops are the healers, so SE should of course suck at healing".

Where does it say that SE aren't healers? In some weird background story nobody ever reads? Players look at the skillsets and then decide "ah, this class has this and that skill, so that's what this class is supposed to be about".

And SE have heals. When I started the game, I looked at the skills and thought "ah, so Bishop is supposed to be the class only about healing, EE is supposed to be a defensive healer, apparently with higher casting speed, and SE is supposed to be the offensive healer - and both EE and SE have buffs, the SE the more offense-oriented ones". So I chose the SE because I wanted to play a healer. And now suddenly SE is only supposed to be a buffer? After over two years of L2?

It was absolutely plain obvious for everybody that both EE and SE are supposed to be healers with buffs (after all both are "elders", so it's obvious they should function about the same, just one more defense and the other more offense).

So NCSoft is changing the play style of a class after people have played it up to 76+, and after players chose a class based on what it actually was like in game. That's why so many SE players are unhappy.

That would be like saying "oh, Necromancers are supposed to be only summoners, sorry about that, let us nerf your nukes real quick to half damage, and let us boost the nukes of the real nuker classes at the same time". I guess that would make many necro players quite unhappy.

[/ QUOTE ]It doesnt even need to be said. It is blatantly obvious they are offensive buffers. Where does it say that EE's aren't melee damage dealers? Just because something isnt stated doesnt make it true. If something is explicitly stated such as "SE's are healers and offensive buffers" then that is a different story. Now you are more on par with prophets the other main offensive buffer and still have better heals.

afkanddead

09-11-2006, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people see SE as mainly a buffer? They are suppost to do both. Now a prophet who is suppost to be solely a buffer can heal just as well as them? Isn't that a little extreme? Might as well just take away our heals even more and give us alot of unique buffs so we are sole buffers. Then take away all of the EE buffs so they can be sole healers along side the bishop.

Do you people who tell us to stop whining even play an SE above lvl 62? What about as your main? And since c5 I've been seeing SE in the party matching system and never getting a party, I'm one of them. I've only had one true party since c5 came out. But since I'm no longer in an alliance cause of c5 its partially my fault. If I would of stayed in one I could get parties. And if I still couldn't I should leave that alliance. So how about the EE and Bishops who would complain that they could not get a party get into a good alliance that will help them level so that they can be rewarded with the classes in pvp?

And don't worry, I know alot of SE mains that are rerolling to new characters, and the ones I know who are not rerolling are the ones who only have 1 lvl to wait till they sub. Either way they will be 1 less SE too. But at least the server has their 2 boxes.

[/ QUOTE ]lmao, prophets cannot heal even close to SE's especially at higher levels.

SithMaster

09-11-2006, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The heal changes set apart the bishop and ee class from the stronger buffers. That's the whole point, get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you yourself said in another thread that this heal change makes the SE better, so by your own words it would be making the gap even smaller.

Make up your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your heals got stronger (more hp/mana) and another class got more INSTANT heals which moved them up beyond you and set a new bar for good healers. You have a few buffs short of a prophet (but certainly some very unique good ones) and get greater heal...which heals for more than before...you just can't spam it.

Krissa

09-11-2006, 09:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as crystal usage on the major heals goes. This should have been implemented along time ago. Healers barely used any adena while exping.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you are prolly speaking about SEs. They don't get heals that use crystals, though.

EllieBelly

09-11-2006, 09:28 AM

No heal use crystals, they use spirit ore, I'm sure that's what people meant.

Anyway saying that healers got rich is a joke right? I make way more money on my nuker because I can go to any number of places and solo, keeping adena and drops for myself as oppose to sharing them with several other people. The healers with might of heaven (bishop, ee) can only hit undead and it's weak, costly, and should they pull a living mob it's heck to take out. I personally haven't healed without sps in ages.. easily 20+ levels.

In other words we gave up the ability to make money on our own by taking care of others. I'd rather not make other healers regret that choice.

Ventx

09-11-2006, 09:47 AM

Thats strange, I lose adena when hunting on my Necro. While healers make 1mill + a day healing in a group because they only have to throw in the odd bbsps on a heal. And I break even on my Wind Rider. I guess being almost a noblesse and playing since prelude makes my experience with this issue worth nothing.

Armenua

09-11-2006, 10:04 AM

OMG, you are kidding right? It's players like you that are so self-involved that it is the reason that prophets and SEs are boxed. No appreciation for the beauty of the group system of DDs and Support classes. The game was meant to be played that way, from what I can see. Soloing is okay I guess, but if you like to play alone why play on a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game?? In my experience of PvE, there is nothing more awesome than being in a full balanced group with everyone doing their job as intended.

And, sorry to say, I have never made a million a day healing, even if I have spent all day in TOI 10 or IT. Please, let me know where to go, so I can. What have I been doing wrong??? Oh, maybe you are including the possibility of full drops or something like that?

And I agree with Ellie, no way I can go out and solo. If I can't find a group, it's back onto my alt or maybe a duo/trio here and there. [And when I'm on my alt, i sure wish I had a healer with me :)]

Krissa

09-11-2006, 10:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thats strange, I lose adena when hunting on my Necro. While healers make 1mill + a day healing in a group because they only have to throw in the odd bbsps on a heal.

[/ QUOTE ]
And we all know the exact class of these healers. They don't get Major Heal, they don't use ore for heals.

TheIronGolem

09-11-2006, 10:32 AM

hmm I think you guys are missing a big thing; Imperical Evidence.

I was in a catacomb grp last night for 3 hrs. We had a bishop an EE an SE tank BD Heirophant and 2 Nukers for main damage. Now yes Myself and the other nuker are there trying to help the DA become an HK and the bishop a cardinal so my spamming S-bsps and his A-bsps I won;t take into acct. I can still go to fod and make my money back soloing if the manor deosn;t pay well enough. NOw the Bish uised I think under 100 ore the EE used around 200 and the HP used around 500. the buffs included clrity lvl 2 and greater shield lvl 3 cept for the bd who had greater might lvl 3.
All parties broke even or better near the end of the night.

Doe it change mechanics? yea we nromally don;t party an EE for one (clarity make nukers happy now) But you healerw ill change and adapt jsut like sorc did when they nerfed aura flare and when they nerferd sleep.

Thinkaboutitmuch

09-11-2006, 11:27 AM

I read somewhere in this thread about a comparison between a prophet and a SE.

So I did a little test
Prophet (L52 BW robes/Homu with SA acumen)
Castspeed: 667 Heal L18 Fully buffed (Including EMP/Wild Magic)
Shilien Elder (L72 Majestic Robes/Homu with SA Acumen)
Castspeed: 646 Greater Heal L27 Fully buffed (Including Berz and Acumen)

In this test I will disgarde the HoT part of the Greater Heal as in a "stinky backdrop hits the fan" situation the HoT does not stack.

Results Instant heal Prophet versus SE
447 <--------------------------------> 755
Mana used Prophet versus SE
52 <---------------------------------> 112

The cast speed on the SE will not change much anymore but the prophet will have a higher cast speed later in lvls.

Having these results I could say that at L72 the Prophet may be able to outcast 1,5x faster then a SE.

End result may be that to get/keep the HP up of the wounded player the Prophet is the better deal if he is to act as the secondairy healer. The cast costs in MP less and the speed could be high enough to make the player survive the mob attack.

Another aspect when a Prophet or SE is used as that secondairy healer.
Defence:
SE get Light Armor
Prophet Heavy
In the defence bit the SE lacks what a prophet could sustain. Both will suffer cast speed compaired to robes so the prophet wins here. If not mistaken the Prophet will be stunned less then a SE so in area's with AoE stunners the Prophet is again the better choose too. In a small area without quick respawn or social mob the Prophet again is the better choose.. Word of Fear anyone? This skill seems to be forgotten and I can assure you that the SE lacks a skill like that. Allso keep in mind the prophet with a higher cast speed might be able to "sleep" a mob/player better the a SE.

Offence:
Prophets get Haste so they hit more then a SE would be able to do. Prophet wins again.

People will argue that VR is the magic skill for melee's. I can grant you VR is nothing if you are stunned/transed/slept/rooted and range attacked. I like to compair VR to Regeneration as both will keep HP up during game play. However Regenaration is not dependant on a player hitting an opponent. Allso the SE lacks Bless the Body/Bless the Soul so that can be seen as an advantage having a Prophet around. So then we have EMP left. It could be me but EMP is mostly used by mages only.

Just my 2 adeana.

Ventx

09-11-2006, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OMG, you are kidding right? It's players like you that are so self-involved that it is the reason that prophets and SEs are boxed. No appreciation for the beauty of the group system of DDs and Support classes. The game was meant to be played that way, from what I can see. Soloing is okay I guess, but if you like to play alone why play on a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game?? In my experience of PvE, there is nothing more awesome than being in a full balanced group with everyone doing their job as intended.

And, sorry to say, I have never made a million a day healing, even if I have spent all day in TOI 10 or IT. Please, let me know where to go, so I can. What have I been doing wrong??? Oh, maybe you are including the possibility of full drops or something like that?

And I agree with Ellie, no way I can go out and solo. If I can't find a group, it's back onto my alt or maybe a duo/trio here and there. [And when I'm on my alt, i sure wish I had a healer with me :)]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for one, you are obviously not looking at how much you are actually making. I'm not counting in full drops. I'm counting in material drops that you always get as well. Sure you'll make 800-1m in a full day of leveling, then you'll have to spend 800-1m on soulshots etc. The difference is, healers make what melee dd spend on soulshots. Healers don't deny they make alot of adena this way. Some are nice enough that when/if you die, they offer you a free B-Rez because they can afford it.

Sorry but my main class is a Plainswalker, you think I solo'd a Plainswalker in Prelude > to now? I partied 100% from level 35>76. I made my nuker subclass so that when I don't have time to spend hours in a group, I could do a couple 20 minute buff rounds on my subclass. I hate playing alone. In fact I find parties way more enjoyable to the extent I can't bare playing my Necro solo for more than an hour at a time, by that time I either log off or start hunting down war tags.

I really don't know why you started your rant against me, because I am confident I am right in what I am talking about and all you can do is accuse me of being a loner gamer. At the peak of C2 I had my own alliance with over 200 people. I had a clan from Prelude to the middle of C3. Apparently you are not good at judging people by first impressions because you obviously have no clue who I am.

Armenua

09-11-2006, 12:26 PM

I have very sound judgement. There are times, yes, where I make snap judgements based on emotion, as everyone does. And I admit I found offence at your resentment of healers "making money" while not having to spend as much as you have, when they are just as essential to the game as DD. We may not have to spend as much on SS as DD, but there are other areas where we are at a disadvantage that makes it "even". BSPS is triple the cost of SS, btw, and now we have to add to that cost by buying soul ore to cast our major heals... and that is essential to our job. So I do have a clue as to who you are by the statements you make.

MalineII

09-11-2006, 12:36 PM

A few random pieces of information:

With the same tattoos, gear and buffs, a prophet will cast roughly 5% faster than an SE, while an EE will have ~20% over the SE and thus ~15% over the PP. A prophet casting 1.5 times as fast as an SE would involve the SE foregoing cast speed bonuses altogether and the prophet wearing DC or Tallum.

As for the tests, neglecting the HoT is unreasonable, as I hope you're well aware: You will always start with the Greater Heal and then build after it with standard heals while the HoT is going if the "small" heals are so much better.

Ventx

09-11-2006, 12:38 PM

It's just fair that everyone should have even costs while hunting, no class should make more adena in an hour than any other. It's near impossible to make it exact, but to make it close is reasonable. It's absurd that people should complain that healers need to spend a little more adena. Sure BSPS costs 3x more than SS, but a dagger for example uses 25-30 soulshots before a healer even uses one. And if there is VR in the party, most parties have it, then its 1 BSPS every 100-200 swings of a dagger. Top it off, Major Heals aren't even needed in a good PvE group. It's mostly just PvP. Also add in that Major Heals are better than the normal heals were in C4 so why complain? NCSoft couldn't have balanced heals any better. I'm just sorry that SE truly are just a buff/recharge bot now :(. They can't decently heal in PvP anymore.

I love healers, Trance is great for PvP for them. They got alot of new useful skills recently. But don't try to write me off as a Healer Hater or w/e you're trying to categorize me as.

Armenua

09-11-2006, 12:43 PM

All right then, I won't write you off as that. I'll give you opportunities to redeem yourself :)

And I agree. What a shame that SEs have been put at such a disadvantage. To be needed in a party for just two buffs and some mana regen is a travesty and encourages boxing. They wanted to make them secondary healers, something else should have been given in return to encourage current SEs to not reroll and new players to create one to play.

MalineII

09-11-2006, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no class should make more adena in an hour than any other

[/ QUOTE ]

Except dwarves.

But seriously, don't look at the healers for this - look at summoners. Beast shots are ridiculously expensive. Playing a melee summoner makes tyrants look cheap: the regular SS of a fast-swing weapon (probably a dagger), BSpS on servitor heals, BtSS en masse for the servitor ... thank god they nerfed sleep, because it used to be I burned BSpS on that too in groups. Oh, and of course the crystals for mass cubics and the servitor itself... and people wonder why summoners go anti-social and prefer soloing?

And SEs couldn't heal decently in PvP to begin with, so eh. :p

Larielle

09-11-2006, 02:20 PM

Cost wise, I usually spend a little more adena on shots than anyone else in my groups. I usually "help" with the DDing (800 damage fully buffed may not be much but it helps..) and I spam SS if the other members of the group are. Then add BBSpS on top of that, so it comes out more costly for me than most (maybe not daggers/archers/tyrants). Of course in an area with AoE stun I wouldn't be hitting as much.

The only time I've made a lot of adena is duoing with an archer/nuker where I only need to recharge. I'm lucky if I can get to pay for half their SS costs in those cases (stubborn friends) :(.

So the cost of Major Heal doesn't worry me at all. If I'm using Major Heal, we're obviously somewhere that I won't be hitting mobs, so no SS cost for me there. I'm sure it'll all even out.

Onychomys

09-11-2006, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see now.Maybe for you its zero diference is that SE live or boxed but for some one who is playing SE as his main...The last thing valuable thing that live SE could offer to group was heals.
When NCSoft finds the way to turn EE and bishops to perfect boxes , maybe then you will understand what i meant...

[/ QUOTE ]lol, what about EE's and bishops who have had 5 chornicles of basic worthlessness? SE is buffer not a main healer and since their is an actual healer class(s) I think its common sense they should have better heals.

IMO this is how it should have been from the start. Healers get sleep and the best heals, buffers get the best buffs I dont see where the complaints can come in.

If they kept heals how they were then they would have had to give healers heals that give like...2.5k hp since greater heal used to give 1500hp on a restore. It just realy doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ]

<sigh> I don't see why people get so confused as to what the classes are. The main split is in the human venue. Prophets are pure buffers and crappy healers, Bishops are the best healers in the game and crappy buffers. BOTH EE and SE are combination of the two split just like BD and SWS. The SE is an offensive buffer/healer getting buffs like VR, Emp, and WM that are attack oriented. EEs are defensive buffers/healers getting buffs like resist shock, agility, and advanced block. They were already up on SEs by getting vitality as well.

Now C5 rolls around and suddenly EEs are supposed to be main healers and SEs relegated to just buffers? I think SEs should have gotten major heal as well. This situation is just wrong.

SEs were ALWAYS second class healers, just like EEs. Are you doing a polearm party? I'd rather have a Bish in party and just have the SE for VR. Higher level raids? Better have a Bish around, preferably a couple of Bishes...what did the SE do? Recharge the tank, no healing. EE's? Advanced block, agility, recharge the tank. Mage party? SE for recharges and WM. Proper grouping including a tank? Bring a bish and EE and keep the SE oop just buffs. Gank party? EE for PR. Rift party? Bish or EE and an SE...Bish and EE for heals and SE for buffs/recharges/backup heals.

The point is, both SE and EE are composite Healer/Buffer with different focuses and in C5 NCSoft threw that all away. Clarity should have been an SE buff as it is offensively oriented. SE should have gotten Major heal or EEs should not have gotten it. SEs got greater group heal, EEs got vitalize. So even there it was kinda balanced.

Also, EEs get might of heaven and now turn undead? Does this mean that SEs should get a nuke that affects everything not-undead? Give them something spell something like "Hell's fury" that does the same damage to living creatures that MoH does to undead.

IMO, NCSoft doesn't even care to play by their own rules now, let alone think about balancing the game.

Is this going to change my gameplay? No. I will still tri-box with my SE/PP and TH. I need the PP buffs (cheaper than haste 2 pots) and I'll continue to level my SE simply because I need VR and I will continue to level my SE so I can get the higher level buffs so I need heals even less. The SE is also there for heals but I rarely, rarely need those. I use recharge more than anything else. My opinion is that if I'm using a lot of heals, I'm in the wrong place. Green mobs all the way.

Edit: And if you REALLY want to talk about gimped, I really hope that Divine protection stacks with Resist Unholy or EEs just got gimped out of one of their level 77 spells LMAO

SithMaster

09-11-2006, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cost wise, I usually spend a little more adena on shots than anyone else in my groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are in a full party, your swinging makes absolutely no difference. It ends up be tallied in the overkill damage of an archer crit.

EllieBelly

09-11-2006, 05:09 PM

Not sure why your stats matter, I've been here since open beta, main healer since 30, blah blah who cares.

But then again I don't sit there and gnash teeth because the PP sits and "leeches" for 15 mins, or that the WC buffs in 5 casts without shots, or the DD went afk for 20 mins to eat, etc etc. LIFE (oh yes that includes games) WILL NOT BE FAIR, the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be.

Nublet

09-11-2006, 05:44 PM

hmmm, so i have to run arround with 3 bishes behind me leeching , se/pp for buffs and a bishop or ee for heals ?

lol... its np , i can do that , but i hate to look like a bot train ^^

when my cute lil dorf makes aoe , i was always fine with se/pp... alt+tab spam gr heal with se...

so they both degraded to buffleechers...

thats only me... i feel sorry for the live se's that losing the fun now.
not much arround cuz its a boring class :o

GJ NCsoft ,like always

Ledaa

09-11-2006, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
<sigh> I don't see why people get so confused as to what the classes are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the way i saw it was
Buffer Profet SE EE Bish Healer
But then I learned that SE got purify and more greater heals then EE. Now I didnt knew any more where should EE go.
Now it's the way I imajined it :D

SilverWolfEcho

09-11-2006, 06:25 PM

I know how to make it fair!

SE gets new skill for endgame, at level 80:

Mana Cost: 500
Uses:100 spirit ore
Cast time: really really fast
Skill name: I kill you dead

muahahaha

Ventx

09-11-2006, 08:48 PM

Makes sense. At level 80 they should be able to summon the god Shilien at will. Too bad it would take you a year from level 75 to get there :/

ProdaznayaShkura

09-11-2006, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<sigh> I don't see why people get so confused as to what the classes are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the way i saw it was
Box Profet SE / EE Bish Live Healer
But then I learned that SE got purify and more greater heals then EE. Now I didnt knew any more where should EE go.
Now it's the way I imajined it :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed

Nublet

09-11-2006, 09:28 PM

we just makin 2 new SE on franz, with lvl 30 they are real fun to play ...

we doing more damage than the little sps / sh's, have empower (emp1 ftw), can recharge our dorfs...

i think higher lvl SE need something like a little nuke too, windstrike 5 is messed up after lvl 36 ;)

p.s.: ups... NO we dont have fun with SE .... (they will instapatch it and nerf windstrike)

Krissa

09-12-2006, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As for the tests, neglecting the HoT is unreasonable, as I hope you're well aware: You will always start with the Greater Heal and then build after it with standard heals while the HoT is going if the "small" heals are so much better.

[/ QUOTE ]
The irony is that the test was made by a live lvl 72 SE. Which shows how bad you can be as a healer, and still get to 72... if you play an SE.

Krissa

09-12-2006, 12:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People will argue that VR is the magic skill for melee's. I can grant you VR is nothing if you are stunned/transed/slept/rooted and range attacked.

[/ QUOTE ]
Occasional stuns still allow VR to work. The same is true about sleeps. And if you are trying to outheal a chain-stunned toon, you will be chain-stunned in like 5 seconds yourself. If you become rooted too often, you have the wrong place and/or the wrong party. If you are rooted occasionally, you still (due to VR) have enough MP to spam lvl 35 Battleheal.

[ QUOTE ]
I like to compair VR to Regeneration as both will keep HP up during game play.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no way in which Regeneration can keep up HP of a tanking toon. If you want to compare VR to Regeneration, nerf VR's effect to be like a quarter of the current one first.

Varaya

09-12-2006, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the tests, neglecting the HoT is unreasonable, as I hope you're well aware: You will always start with the Greater Heal and then build after it with standard heals while the HoT is going if the "small" heals are so much better.

[/ QUOTE ]
The irony is that the test was made by a live lvl 72 SE. Which shows how bad you can be as a healer, and still get to 72... if you play an SE.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are bad players in all classes. I have seen high level bishops who spam greater group heals all the time even when a normal heal would have been enough, I have seen high lvl tanks who do not use hate enough or have no clue how to pull efficiently, I have seen nukers who spam nukes and run out of mana while the rest of the group is still going strong and Prophets who have no clue about buffing and give either useless buffs to some classes because they do not know what the buff actually does or unnecessary buffs which cost mp, or they do not pay attention to when buffs will fade so that the group runs out of buffs before he starts rebuffing. I have seen Gladiators who use their aoe skill into a group of slept mobs and DDs who apparently never heard of "assisting" and start attacking parked mobs. I have seen high level players who have no clue how the game works in ALL classes. It's the player, not the class.

Belophan

09-12-2006, 04:21 AM

i still see same amount of parties that want a SE/EE and NOT a Bishop.. cause we dont have recharge..

best group imo is a WC/PP + EE/SE + Bishop + DDs

ive been in group with SE/EE and both worked fine...both do the same anyway.. recharging me ^^

Larielle

09-12-2006, 04:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cost wise, I usually spend a little more adena on shots than anyone else in my groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are in a full party, your swinging makes absolutely no difference. It ends up be tallied in the overkill damage of an archer crit.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, which is why my style of play varies from group to group. It depends on the group size, makeup and the mobs we're fighting. My groups are usually a mix of all classes, and usually not that many high level, high damage classes.

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<sigh> I don't see why people get so confused as to what the classes are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the way i saw it was
Box Profet SE / EE Bish Live Healer
But then I learned that SE got purify and more greater heals then EE. Now I didnt knew any more where should EE go.
Now it's the way I imajined it :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think that only buffers get boxed...to which I "lol"

MalineII

09-12-2006, 04:29 AM

Well, you can always box yourself an SH slave - not a biggie, I've got me a manor/melee slave, loving it. :D

And yes, it's not only the class but some certainly play a part - the fact is that an SE gets invited by virtue of being an SE, but a bishop (unless in clan gropus) gets invited by virtue of being a good bishop.

On a whole though, it's alarming - I've been told by live prophets that they buff off a macro. That's a 100% natural thing ... on a box which buffs while the main must do other things like pulling or tanking. I can't count the times I've been given melee buffs but not acumen or zerk either. I'm just not sure if people even bother trying to figure out their class that far anymore.

This is also the reason I'm sick of people telling me "you're low level you have no clue," especially since often a few pages later someone comes "by the way, I can manage".

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 04:34 AM

There are a lot of crappy played healers/buffers out there for sure. Still, I've seen people box a tank outside parties. I've seen boxed bishops, BDs, SWS, hell you could box a summoner for the buff or cubics. The only thing you can't box is a dd. Why on earth do you think changing heals does anything? People were gonna box with the old skills...they're gonna box with the new skills. It makes no difference.

MalineII

09-12-2006, 04:39 AM

Why can you not box a DD? They're easier to box than any other classs - /target MA /assist You just can't box it out of party, that doesn't change anything.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-12-2006, 05:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<sigh> I don't see why people get so confused as to what the classes are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the way i saw it was
Box Profet SE / EE Bish Live Healer
But then I learned that SE got purify and more greater heals then EE. Now I didnt knew any more where should EE go.
Now it's the way I imajined it :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think that only buffers get boxed...to which I "lol"

[/ QUOTE ]
I can name only 2 high lvl prophets on Sieghardt.Both are clan leaders.Coincidence?Oh wait all other prophets are idiots and cant play their class properly...
I cant count how many times my SE was invited as healer and some one from group would bring boxed SE or prophet (or both) to do the buffing.Maybe on Hind there is 100% instaban for boxing but on Sieg 98% of buffers are boxed.Or are grouped 24/7 and has names like "StrongArm" or "zuobao".

Orvieta

09-12-2006, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the tests, neglecting the HoT is unreasonable, as I hope you're well aware: You will always start with the Greater Heal and then build after it with standard heals while the HoT is going if the "small" heals are so much better.

[/ QUOTE ]
The irony is that the test was made by a live lvl 72 SE. Which shows how bad you can be as a healer, and still get to 72... if you play an SE.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are bad players in all classes. I have seen high level bishops who spam greater group heals all the time even when a normal heal would have been enough, I have seen high lvl tanks who do not use hate enough or have no clue how to pull efficiently, I have seen nukers who spam nukes and run out of mana while the rest of the group is still going strong and Prophets who have no clue about buffing and give either useless buffs to some classes because they do not know what the buff actually does or unnecessary buffs which cost mp, or they do not pay attention to when buffs will fade so that the group runs out of buffs before he starts rebuffing. I have seen Gladiators who use their aoe skill into a group of slept mobs and DDs who apparently never heard of "assisting" and start attacking parked mobs. I have seen high level players who have no clue how the game works in ALL classes. It's the player, not the class.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a sidenote =

How can you expect from a bought or powerleveled char that the player behind it knows how to play? All those examples pretty much prove that fact.

MalineII

09-12-2006, 05:23 AM

That's nonsense. I know what I would buff as a prophet, I know to buff myself first and/or stagger, etc. I don't have a prophet, but if I bought one I'd play better than idiots who have leeched in groups who think "you've got a stick up your [ommited]" for caring that they play well in days.

Orvieta

09-12-2006, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's nonsense. I know what I would buff as a prophet, I know to buff myself first and/or stagger, etc. I don't have a prophet, but if I bought one I'd play better than idiots who have leeched in groups who think "you've got a stick up your [ommited]" for caring that they play well in days.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I was merely pointing to new players who Ebay accounts and gear together and start with a lvl 71 Sorcerer with a lvl 56 SE boxed and try to pvp or pve...

...I was not talking about already established grinding players who have a fairly good understanding about any of the classes cause they have hunted with them.

Onychomys

09-12-2006, 09:28 AM

Wow, post one reasonable arguement about what's going on and get completely ignored :P

Krissa

09-12-2006, 09:46 AM

This one? :D

[ QUOTE ]
Is this going to change my gameplay? No. I will still tri-box with my SE/PP and TH. I need the PP buffs (cheaper than haste 2 pots) and I'll continue to level my SE simply because I need VR and I will continue to level my SE so I can get the higher level buffs so I need heals even less. The SE is also there for heals but I rarely, rarely need those. I use recharge more than anything else. My opinion is that if I'm using a lot of heals, I'm in the wrong place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Onychomys

09-12-2006, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This one? :D

[ QUOTE ]
Is this going to change my gameplay? No. I will still tri-box with my SE/PP and TH. I need the PP buffs (cheaper than haste 2 pots) and I'll continue to level my SE simply because I need VR and I will continue to level my SE so I can get the higher level buffs so I need heals even less. The SE is also there for heals but I rarely, rarely need those. I use recharge more than anything else. My opinion is that if I'm using a lot of heals, I'm in the wrong place.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL :p

Was actually hoping people would dissect the rest of it to show me where I'm wrong. But since noone could, I guess I'm completely right!! WOOT! :D

Tiffy

09-12-2006, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<sigh> I don't see why people get so confused as to what the classes are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the way i saw it was
Box Profet SE / EE Bish Live Healer
But then I learned that SE got purify and more greater heals then EE. Now I didnt knew any more where should EE go.
Now it's the way I imajined it :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think that only buffers get boxed...to which I "lol"

[/ QUOTE ]
I can name only 2 high lvl prophets on Sieghardt.Both are clan leaders.Coincidence?Oh wait all other prophets are idiots and cant play their class properly...
I cant count how many times my SE was invited as healer and some one from group would bring boxed SE or prophet (or both) to do the buffing.Maybe on Hind there is 100% instaban for boxing but on Sieg 98% of buffers are boxed.Or are grouped 24/7 and has names like "StrongArm" or "zuobao".

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.. you should really party with a live Prophet before you decide who doesn't know how to play there class. My Prophet is main live & even thou she's only in her 50's it can take a while sometimes with RL & legit players to get up to 70+.
I have also been playing less then a year & most people have said for a legit live Prophet - I have gotten pretty high for playing under a year. I hate people who box my class as much as the next person, but when I'm playing live I know what buffs to give what class, I know when to ask if they want something like zerk (not all classes do, especially tanks) & I know to buff myself with acumen first, before I do my buffing rounds. I play my class with pride & compassion, unfortunately I can't say the same about you. :mad:

Thinkaboutitmuch

09-12-2006, 11:08 AM

Oke,

In my previous post I assumed too much about the Greater Heal versus Normal Heal. When I started my post I did no consider combo-heals for the simple fact that I was too focused on the best heals per class per period of time.

I will assume that when working with Normal heals only a very small difference will apply between the Prophet and the SE compairing HP gained per mana spent. However the time spent to get that HP is a Prophet win since that toon has a faster castspeed.

So to make a better judgement I would love to see some stats of a L72 Prophet in majestic with Homu(acumen) without tattoo's.

I am hoping to see this discussion develope futher.

MalineII

09-12-2006, 11:29 AM

5% extra cast speed. That can not make up for the HoT running in the background of an SE popping greater heals on someone every few heals.

Why would a prophet (or an SE) go without tattoos? I've never noticed the extra MEN I got when I removed my +INT (and I really regret that now) on my ES, I don't see why a healer or buffer wouldn't take at least +4, if not +5 WIT.

Thinkaboutitmuch

09-12-2006, 11:46 AM

Agreed when it's a few heals here and there.

I am looking for the spamming kind of situation compairison.
The kind of situation here the main healer is killed/out of mana or disconnected aka where the group is in the middle of a multi-spawn mob attack.
Popping Greater Heal consitantly will make me loose HoT as everytime when I recast the Greater Heal the HoT is still running and reset after the additional is popped.
This I like to compair that to a Prophet acting as secondairy healer.
The combo heal of the SE I can figure out myself.

That's why stats are best served here even more so if a compairson can be made per class buffed with selfbuffs only.

About the tattoo's:
I lack the resources it's that simple.

Tiffy

09-12-2006, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oke,

In my previous post I assumed too much about the Greater Heal versus Normal Heal. When I started my post I did no consider combo-heals for the simple fact that I was too focused on the best heals per class per period of time.

I will assume that when working with Normal heals only a very small difference will apply between the Prophet and the SE compairing HP gained per mana spent. However the time spent to get that HP is a Prophet win since that toon has a faster castspeed.

So to make a better judgement I would love to see some stats of a L72 Prophet in majestic with Homu(acumen) without tattoo's.

I am hoping to see this discussion develope futher.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually Shrimpoo is a live Prophet in Maj Gear, I think. You might want to see if she's up for the Challenge. I will be once I hit AG & let ya know.

MalineII

09-12-2006, 12:07 PM

Get +4WIT/-5MEN from the shop if you're too poor for mammon dyes. The 1 point of MEN looks dirty, but having 4 extra wit is as much of a difference in cast speed as between dark elves and elves - foregoing it on a healer is plain out unreasonable, especially if you're already in the A Grade range.

In a spam situation, the casting goes GH->Heal->Heal->Heal. The prophet can do anything you do 5% faster than you, but that's negligible.

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 12:28 PM

We still have people who think "boxing" is caused by how powerful your heals are ... which is just ignorant. Why do people quit healers before 75? They quit because support classes are gimp in pvp. They reroll to a dd class to have fun. The solution is not to give buffers more heals, it's to weaken all your buffs if you want the class to stop being 2-boxed. Buffs are overpowered as hell in this game. A buffed player is worth three unbuffed players. Weaken the buffs and people won't have a use for 2boxing. As long as the buffs exist, everyone and his brother will 2-box the buffers and healers.

And I know plenty of boxed players of all classes. SE is not unique in any way shape or form.

And no, Maline, 2-boxing doesn't count if you have to share the exp :p

Mortova

09-12-2006, 12:50 PM

Just got back to using my EE after spending a week on Franz, and the only world i can describe the new Greater Heal as is 'Different', not a Negative change, just a new change. I can heal with it the same as i could before, people dont die because of it, if you need to spam heals bad you would use Battle Heal, which every class but the Bishop has to put up with the Lv 15 (Char Lv 35) one.

Again, this doesnt change much, SE's are still good heals, a speed set/wep/+4 WIT keeps them with enough speed, and they still get Greater Grp Heal which i wish i had. When we grped an SE (Since i couldnt handle so many ppl myself, i admitted i needed help) who gave VR, i was virtually not needed, but they kept me to recharge the fighters mostly.

Lord Chaos

09-12-2006, 12:53 PM

Why not just remove support classes then? Much easier.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-12-2006, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We still have people who think "boxing" is caused by how powerful your heals are ... which is just ignorant. Why do people quit healers before 75? They quit because support classes are gimp in pvp. They reroll to a dd class to have fun. The solution is not to give buffers more heals, it's to weaken all your buffs if you want the class to stop being 2-boxed. Buffs are overpowered as hell in this game. A buffed player is worth three unbuffed players. Weaken the buffs and people won't have a use for 2boxing. As long as the buffs exist, everyone and his brother will 2-box the buffers and healers.

And I know plenty of boxed players of all classes. SE is not unique in any way shape or form.

And no, Maline, 2-boxing doesn't count if you have to share the exp :p

[/ QUOTE ]
I was saying all the time.
People box buffers.
Do you understand a difference between buffer and healer ?If the people are boxing SE it s because of buffs not heals.People box 78 lvl bought EE's just for PoW often , they are not acting as healers.Prophets are also boxed because of buffs not heals.And with this change EE and bishop are so much better at healing and SE's heals are too weak for dangerous places.No one is kicking DD from the group to invite SE just for VR and empower.There is too many 58 lvl boxes for these buffs.

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 01:28 PM

You still can't party without a healer, and let's not pretend there are a million EEs and Bishops running around the server. Yes, SE is no longer the perfect party buffer/healer to run around with a WC, but that's a good change.

Isdin

09-12-2006, 01:38 PM

Actually, I think alot of live SEs or Prophets, or at least the legit ones, are for the most part without tatoos. We may like to have them, but doesn't mean we can afford them. My SE doesn't make NEARLY as much adena in grinding as people think. Granted I can't sell cause my game crashes everytime it goes idle for more than 30 minutes so I'm at a disadvantage.

And as far as Thinkaboutitmuch's experiment I don't think the HoT really effects it much because since we are talking about casting speed, most healing per a given amount of time, your probably going to be cutting that HoT short and only getting maybe half of it, even if you are alternating greater heal and heal. Maybe I'll throw heals at myself to see exactly how much, alternating greater and regular heal, cuts the HoT short if any at all. I'm not going to argue that an SE is a better healer than a prophet, I just don't think that now in an 'oh ****' situation that an SE is 'much' better at healing.

Isdin

09-12-2006, 01:43 PM

I still think that if you take away the boxed characters, that there would not be many more SEs than bishops, I know alot. EE and Prophet might be different.

MalineII

09-12-2006, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
or at least the legit ones, are for the most part without tatoos. We may like to have them, but doesn't mean we can afford them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, buy them from the store. It's less than one million, including application, for +4WIT/-5MEN.

For all you could just roll an alt and manor a bit to get that in a night or two - before level 20, without twinking the alt (I'd recommend an orc mystic).

Populater

09-12-2006, 01:52 PM

I've sort of gotten used to the HoT issue and look at it differently than most. When I or whoever is getting low on HP, I open it up with a Greater heal, if it looks like I need to get out another heal before the 15 second HoT is done, I use Heal or Battle Heal (whichever is needed most) then repeat/recycle. So far the new Greater heal under normal circumstance has proven to be more mana efficient when used properly. I never tend to spam it anyway as if things get really bad, Battle heal will be my spell of choice.

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 02:00 PM

And that's called adaptation.

Thinkaboutitmuch

09-12-2006, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Get +4WIT/-5MEN from the shop if you're too poor for mammon dyes. The 1 point of MEN looks dirty, but having 4 extra wit is as much of a difference in cast speed as between dark elves and elves - foregoing it on a healer is plain out unreasonable, especially if you're already in the A Grade range.

In a spam situation, the casting goes GH->Heal->Heal->Heal. The prophet can do anything you do 5% faster than you, but that's negligible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaah, I may be poor in your eyes but frankly I feel at times rich simple becuase I have been able to get some of the sets I have on my alts. 80% of what I have done I have done solo.
I started out with a Dark wizard during first release but stopped when the clan was looking for an SE. That clan broke up as the clanleader stopped being just that.

Basically now I love to play a SE best if possible full-time. I have had the bad luck running into more and more people rather having a out of party SE then a live 1.
In any party up till now when I was part of 1 I would help with heals but allso with damage using a bow. So I would blow blessed spiritshots/arrows and xss.
While they got cash I lost it very time I was in a party. I know some will see it as silly but I can't sit still at the far end and leech. It is just not my style. A reason why I hate the fact I can't use a bow like in C4. Another reason why I am "poor" was the failure of a Carnage Bow.
Some would say play the market. Well, I rather be in a live party then to have to hang out in towns looking for the deals. Apart from that I lack the time and the means to setup shop.

The rest of the time I am trying to gather mats on my own and those overpriced books that now are between 2-5.5 mil.

At this time I am clanless and I think I will remain that way unless I am invited into a clan that has "live" people.

Nanashi_Naomhan

09-12-2006, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've sort of gotten used to the HoT issue and look at it differently than most. When I or whoever is getting low on HP, I open it up with a Greater heal, if it looks like I need to get out another heal before the 15 second HoT is done, I use Heal or Battle Heal (whichever is needed most) then repeat/recycle. So far the new Greater heal under normal circumstance has proven to be more mana efficient when used properly. I never tend to spam it anyway as if things get really bad, Battle heal will be my spell of choice.

[/ QUOTE ]
my opinion prolly doesnt count because my se is boxed (although high lvl)
but i friggn love the new heals
alot more convinient for btming and an increase in their effectiveness
seriously anyone relying on a se for emergency heals is prolly hunting in the wrong area

Onychomys

09-12-2006, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
5% extra cast speed. That can not make up for the HoT running in the background of an SE popping greater heals on someone every few heals.

Why would a prophet (or an SE) go without tattoos? I've never noticed the extra MEN I got when I removed my +INT (and I really regret that now) on my ES, I don't see why a healer or buffer wouldn't take at least +4, if not +5 WIT.

[/ QUOTE ]

As someone who has played a live prophet (gave up after 62 cause I got tired of bcasting for a party for 3 hours and then only having an hour to play and people that would gank you and laugh cause they were soooo much tougher than a prophet) I can definately tell you that -men is a horrible choice for a prophet. Even untatted, by the time 20 minutes are up, I'm barely finishing regenning my MP for the next buff round (9 toon parties) and that's with me sitting the whole time! -men would kill me as I would have less MP and slower regen <shudder>. I still think that it's crap that mages can go -str +con (complete bonus, no downside) and I can't go -int +wit, -int +men. What do I care about int? I never need it because I never have MP left to heal or root or sleep or anything else other than buff. But no, I can either screw my MP and MP regen to cast fast or increase MP and MP regen to cast slower than an orc can run....

MalineII

09-12-2006, 04:27 PM

I play a class that measures her MP in "minute they run out at". Take it from me: Adding 5 MEN to my setup made no palpable difference. -5 MEN won't kill any prophet - unless he's trying to give full buffs to a 9 man party, which is just not his/her job.

If you've ever buffed with +WIT, you'll never want to be without it again. ;p

Nanashi_Naomhan

09-12-2006, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I play a class that measures her MP in "minute they run out at". Take it from me: Adding 5 MEN to my setup made no palpable difference. -5 MEN won't kill any prophet - unless he's trying to give full buffs to a 9 man party, which is just not his/her job.

If you've ever buffed with +WIT, you'll never want to be without it again. ;p

[/ QUOTE ]
faster you buff the faster you get to sit back down
wit FTW

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5% extra cast speed. That can not make up for the HoT running in the background of an SE popping greater heals on someone every few heals.

Why would a prophet (or an SE) go without tattoos? I've never noticed the extra MEN I got when I removed my +INT (and I really regret that now) on my ES, I don't see why a healer or buffer wouldn't take at least +4, if not +5 WIT.

[/ QUOTE ]

As someone who has played a live prophet (gave up after 62 cause I got tired of bcasting for a party for 3 hours and then only having an hour to play and people that would gank you and laugh cause they were soooo much tougher than a prophet) I can definately tell you that -men is a horrible choice for a prophet. Even untatted, by the time 20 minutes are up, I'm barely finishing regenning my MP for the next buff round (9 toon parties) and that's with me sitting the whole time! -men would kill me as I would have less MP and slower regen <shudder>. I still think that it's crap that mages can go -str +con (complete bonus, no downside) and I can't go -int +wit, -int +men. What do I care about int? I never need it because I never have MP left to heal or root or sleep or anything else other than buff. But no, I can either screw my MP and MP regen to cast fast or increase MP and MP regen to cast slower than an orc can run....

[/ QUOTE ]

Int is used for roots, which is your secondary purpose in pvp. If you aren't wearing a mp regen armor of the proper grade...of course you can't buff.

SilverWolfEcho

09-12-2006, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or at least the legit ones, are for the most part without tatoos. We may like to have them, but doesn't mean we can afford them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, buy them from the store. It's less than one million, including application, for +4WIT/-5MEN.

For all you could just roll an alt and manor a bit to get that in a night or two - before level 20, without twinking the alt (I'd recommend an orc mystic).

[/ QUOTE ]

It used to be only upsides.. ++Cast speed AND ++ sleep/hold/silence resist. Unfortunately they changed the stats, so +4wit -4/5 men actually ++ Cast speed BUT now -- sleep/hold/silence resist.

Since there's now a downside, it's not a 100% "go" anymore. More like just even it out a bit at +2/-2 and go from there.

(Of course, I'm not paying to remove my SE or my PP's tats. But then again, I made them both buffho's far before the "nerfs" came out with C5.)

ProdaznayaShkura

09-12-2006, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And that's called adaptation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look at his level.Adaptation?I adapted to new heals.Problem is that every "oh -_-" situatuion ends in "low mp lets rest".If i'm lucky and no one died.Just how i'm suposed to keep people alive and my mp at decent level in Disciples area in WoA?With Destruction using their skills that hit for 1,3k damage light armors or crits (~600 damage on light) and they crit very often.And also Authority who often do not even engage in melee just stand there and nukes (lol root lol) and because of extensive nuke use they crit often with their nukes.Any advice on keeping mp and not spaming heals like mad?

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 11:12 PM

At 73 I can solo with my proph in disc or WOA...how you can't keep people healed is beyond me. Make better parties.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-12-2006, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At 73 I can solo with my proph in disc or WOA...how you can't keep people healed is beyond me. Make better parties.

[/ QUOTE ]
...Have you ever seen Disciples mobs in WoA?Disciples of Authority/Judgement/Destruction.At WoA entrance people do not need my heals at all (thats why all solo/duo have boxed buffers there).At the middle of WoA i can drop a heal every 30 seconds and this is enough(problem is that middle of WoA - crap exp/spoil and overcrowded with bots).Only good area is with Disciples (12k exp per mob , ~3 SoM blades per buffround and mobs are tightly packed , no need to run).
Make better groups?Sure as euro on NA server i have insane amount of people to choose from to make groups...

Mizwisfist

09-12-2006, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Make better groups?Sure as euro on NA server i have insane amount of people to choose from to make groups...

[/ QUOTE ]

hoo we get it now. Just transfer your character then.
Too bad.

SithMaster

09-12-2006, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At 73 I can solo with my proph in disc or WOA...how you can't keep people healed is beyond me. Make better parties.

[/ QUOTE ]
...Have you ever seen Disciples mobs in WoA?Disciples of Authority/Judgement/Destruction.At WoA entrance people do not need my heals at all (thats why all solo/duo have boxed buffers there).At the middle of WoA i can drop a heal every 30 seconds and this is enough(problem is that middle of WoA - crap exp/spoil and overcrowded with bots).Only good area is with Disciples (12k exp per mob , ~3 SoM blades per buffround and mobs are tightly packed , no need to run).
Make better groups?Sure as euro on NA server i have insane amount of people to choose from to make groups...

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL yes I'm well aware of all the mobs in WOA. The angels are nothing tough to me. They have crit power and crit special abilities on many of the mobs, and my tribunal debuffs crit rate. No angel hits me for more than 300 damage. Duo with a SH, we CDL, root from me, debuff his critical, and watch it fall in 3 nukes. Free Emp from Daimon as he wanders the wall too. I can also cycle my hp from regen into the SH with sacrifice.

You're playing a game on a NA server and complaining not enough ppl are on at your playtime? Not too sharp are we? ;)

Lord Chaos

09-12-2006, 11:44 PM

And the faster you buff, the faster people can get back in fight, the less chance your macro is interrupted, etc.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-12-2006, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ROFL yes I'm well aware of all the mobs in WOA. The angels are nothing tough to me. They have crit power and crit special abilities on many of the mobs, and my tribunal debuffs crit rate. No angel hits me for more than 300 damage. Duo with a SH, we CDL, root from me, debuff his critical, and watch it fall in 3 nukes. Free Emp from Daimon as he wonders the wall too. I can also cycle my hp from regen into the SH with sacrifice.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yay i get it now.Next time when i log in i will just say to my clannies that play FS/TH/dualist or other useless melee and just group some nukers.Ty for advice(all tanks from my clan quit and my clan is not unique).

[ QUOTE ]
You're playing a game on a NA server and complaining not enough ppl are on at your playtime? Not too sharp are we? ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
...Go date tubgirl or something.I'm sure she will like your bright intelect and witty coments.

SithMaster

09-13-2006, 12:08 AM

Dear God you mean...you can't bring people from out of clan along? You mean...it's possible there are class combinations that are not ideal for exping together? You're 12...right? Cry more...really...I'm heartbroken for you.

PS - It's intellect. It sounds really silly to mock what you can't even spell.

Thinkaboutitmuch

09-13-2006, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dear God you mean...you can't bring people from out of clan along? You mean...it's possible there are class combinations that are not ideal for exping together? You're 12...right? Cry more...really...I'm heartbroken for you.

PS - It's intellect. It sounds really silly to mock what you can't even spell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sith,

Comments like this or never constructive and that by itself should keep remarks like yours from being uttered on these boards. Well, atleast if you want to keep it a mature discussion.
Be kind enough to the rest of the world to keep it construtive.
Empty (abusive) nonsense in my opinion reflects the mental/social state of a person in general more then anything else.

In the beginning of the boards long discussions were made about language use on the boards in general as that would help out everybody. NCsoft wants us to write as much in english as that is what the moderators can understand to keep immaturity and bad language of the boards.

Most of us native non-english-speaking folks respect that rule so I kindly ask you to respect others when they have trouble writting perfect english. Like me focus on the essence of a discussion.

Thanks.

Mortova

09-13-2006, 12:50 AM

ProdaznayaShkura

09-13-2006, 01:04 AM

Maybe i should make myself clear :
I group with my clan everytime its possible.And these group almost never have real tank or sws.Level range is 62-77.I cant heal eficienlty do you understand?Mobs in that area has very large agro range so its easy to agro too much mobs.If the mobs wont use their high damage skills or crit in "wrong" moment no one will die.But every such "oh -_-" ends in mp rest because i must spam heals on low pdef/hp classes like adventurer or BD who cant just take thousands of damage and wait for heals like FS or duelist.
Nukers are good exp , actually far better than clan groups.Root+CDL'ing SH/necro is probably best exp you can get except for aoe.But i made my SE to group with all clannies , not to be some kind of nuker bish.So for me this heal nerf is "too much to adapt".I dont want to level useless character to be what... more useless?

Mizwisfist

09-13-2006, 01:12 AM

You don't need to clarify. We all see your problem and a few solutions even if not always possible to adopt.
Sith is just making fun of you and your anger while improving (still there ?) his postcount with cheap comments just to keep you going.
Nothing like a free boards' xp ride.

MalineII

09-13-2006, 01:16 AM

If those places are too tightly-packed for you now, have you considered bringing along out-of-clan goodies? After trading [my] cubics for buffs and in the process buffing a group we were trading with with the regen buff from the Seraphim sometimes, I was recently invited into that group after the person I was purifying/healing for left the area.

Similarly, buffing outsiders can mean fun additions to the group: 30% extra MP from me, or Lure or a sturdy shield from a dagger or tank, maybe, in your case.

I have found no better way to quickly get nice people into the group than buff-trading. It seems like a waste of MP at first, but it usually works out in the long run, as it's a real "ice-breaker" and can result in the group actually running a little better.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-13-2006, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't need to clarify. We all see your problem and a few solutions even if not always possible to adopt.
Sith is just making fun of you and your anger while improving (still there ?) his postcount with cheap comments just to keep you going.
Nothing like a free boards' xp ride.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well i also dont see the point to argue with him.He already showed his "vast" knowlege about L2 in summoner thread.Too bad these boards lack feature like "Ignore"(at least i couldnt find it >.<).

MalineII

09-13-2006, 01:40 AM

Click here (http://boards.lineage2.com/toggleignore.php?Cat=0&User=765) to ignore Luke.

ProdaznayaShkura

09-13-2006, 01:46 AM

Too bad almost all players are highly clan/ally oriented at these levels.Also having 30 clan wars dont encourage grouping with random people who will just stand untill you get killed.In that particular area i see 1 group of RGI's and often one group from one alliance.Too bad they have all needed support(its not live but also not boxed lol).Never saw stragler looking for group there.And there is very few people looking for groups in town ( at least on my playing time).

ProdaznayaShkura

09-13-2006, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Click here (http://boards.lineage2.com/toggleignore.php?Cat=0&User=765) to ignore Luke.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks :)

MalineII

09-13-2006, 01:50 AM

Well, a spot that gives a group trouble isn't a good candidate for looking for people to join up in the party - I'm not sure, I've not had a problem meeting people ... but of course I'm a well-known big-mouthed utter carebear. It is a matter of looking around.

LlothlianII

09-13-2006, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really care for this either, I picked a bishop to be a pure healer, to have all the good heals but little else. Now my heals are sort of gimped because I need to not only bring a stack of sps/bsps but now ALSO spirit ore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares, still gonna be cheaper than playing a Dagger user.

KingdomForCoin

09-13-2006, 02:45 AM

Warper

09-13-2006, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
its strange with all this amazing xp that you claim to be getting on angels at argos, that you have been level 73 for 4+ months.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with it. Some people just grind less time than you imagined :p For example, they can pvp, raid or sleep instead.
Anyway, it was yet another ++post nonsense, don't bother to answer me ;)

As for WoA area groups... there are solutions for the situation. If you have prophet in your group make him/her heal as well.
Prophet+SE with regular Heals and occasional Greater Heals will make up for Greater Heal spam in previous chronicle. In all aspects but group coordination you'll be fine.
Overall mp on healing will not raise much (if ever) due to the change, so it's justified. You can recharge your prophet to compensate mp consumption on healing. The only thing that will change - you'll spend a bit more adena on spiritshots. Anyway you'll make money in this sort of grind.
If you have no prophet (WC? boxed buffer? CH buffs?), you should consider group formula change. First of all, you should make a spot for another healer. It doesn't matter what class you get - bishop/EE/SE/prophet/OL will do well.

As a side remark, I'd like to recomend you to consider BH-oriened group there. WoA has a great spoil, so you won't regret the change :)
For example, we've got the following group there: TH, Hawkeye, Destroyer, BH, BD, SwS, SE, WC, Bishop. SE concentrated on recharging BH and archer with occasional heals, bishop healed, WC and bishop provided crowd control. Works like a charm :)

Krissa

09-13-2006, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This one? :D
[ QUOTE ]
Is this going to change my gameplay? No. I will still tri-box with my SE/PP and TH. I need the PP buffs (cheaper than haste 2 pots) and I'll continue to level my SE simply because I need VR and I will continue to level my SE so I can get the higher level buffs so I need heals even less. The SE is also there for heals but I rarely, rarely need those. I use recharge more than anything else. My opinion is that if I'm using a lot of heals, I'm in the wrong place.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL :p
Was actually hoping people would dissect the rest of it to show me where I'm wrong. But since noone could, I guess I'm completely right!! WOOT! :D

[/ QUOTE ]
After we have agreed on this, the rest seems to be mostly a noise. Sure, NCsoft does not consider EE and SE being equal "Buffer/Healer" classes. And players don't consider them this way either (at least in practice, as you have shown above), starting from C2, if not earler. So what?

SithMaster

09-13-2006, 04:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe i should make myself clear :
I group with my clan everytime its possible.And these group almost never have real tank or sws.Level range is 62-77.I cant heal eficienlty do you understand?Mobs in that area has very large agro range so its easy to agro too much mobs.If the mobs wont use their high damage skills or crit in "wrong" moment no one will die.But every such "oh -_-" ends in mp rest because i must spam heals on low pdef/hp classes like adventurer or BD who cant just take thousands of damage and wait for heals like FS or duelist.
Nukers are good exp , actually far better than clan groups.Root+CDL'ing SH/necro is probably best exp you can get except for aoe.But i made my SE to group with all clannies , not to be some kind of nuker bish.So for me this heal nerf is "too much to adapt".I dont want to level useless character to be what... more useless?

[/ QUOTE ]

I group with a lvl 40 Bishop all the time. He can't heal or buff my tank properly. Bishops are underpowered! LOL just because you don't have the classes in your clan doesn't mean they don't exist. Find a new clan.