eBay delisting Virtual Property Auctions

[Lisanna]

Slashdot article on subject (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/26/2026257)

Sounds good to me. Whether or not NCSoft or other game companies are behind it, it means that our "friends" are running out of time.

[Wardrum]

I actually searched for virtual property on ebay, and there is a ton. So yeah, lets not get our hopes up.

[Lisanna]

It will take time to find it all, of course.

[soccerrocker13]

yea there is sooo many... will be good if it will work

[AshaneFB]

What does stopping it on Ebay do anyway?

Need to shut down the billion sites, (hello i...you know what).

That'll do a ton more then whatever Ebay does.

[KingdomForCoin]

"The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner." this is from their own policy, probably some 10+ years old. the companies that run MMOs expressly state that they retain ownership of everything, even player's accounts. pretty cut and dry. if you try and sell something you dont own, you get your ebay account deleted, simple as that. so why have they allowed RMT advertisements/sales for so long? becasue they make money from it? they may have changed their ploicy, but i doubt they will be enforcing anything, unless an MMO company threatens them with a lawsuit of assisted virtual theft or somesuch.

[Thorn]

I thought there already was a thread on this. Guess the mods deleted it.

[Tillus]

lol, even if e-bay stops there are plenty of independant sites out there that dont use e-bay to sell their items. In short.... this thread means nothing.

[Arigato]

[ QUOTE ]
"The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner." this is from their own policy, probably some 10+ years old. the companies that run MMOs expressly state that they retain ownership of everything, even player's accounts. pretty cut and dry. if you try and sell something you dont own, you get your ebay account deleted, simple as that. so why have they allowed RMT advertisements/sales for so long? becasue they make money from it? they may have changed their ploicy, but i doubt they will be enforcing anything, unless an MMO company threatens them with a lawsuit of assisted virtual theft or somesuch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except virtual items don't qualify as intellectual property -- they don't even count as property at all. The intellectual property is the game's source code, the graphics, the sound, the plot, etc., not virtual items in the virtual world. Intellectual property is art you create, a process you develop, or an item you invent. Virtual items don't even exist as far as property law is concerned. Legally, virtual property trades are a service, not a purchase, because you get no assets in exchange for the money.

Game currency companies WERE sued once; the currency sellers won. Because the "property" they sell doesn't actually exist in a legal sense, there's no laws being broken, and the currency companies themselves don't have any contracts with the game companies that they could be sued for breach of.

[Crestfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner." this is from their own policy, probably some 10+ years old. the companies that run MMOs expressly state that they retain ownership of everything, even player's accounts. pretty cut and dry. if you try and sell something you dont own, you get your ebay account deleted, simple as that. so why have they allowed RMT advertisements/sales for so long? becasue they make money from it? they may have changed their ploicy, but i doubt they will be enforcing anything, unless an MMO company threatens them with a lawsuit of assisted virtual theft or somesuch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except virtual items don't qualify as intellectual property -- they don't even count as property at all. The intellectual property is the game's source code, the graphics, the sound, the plot, etc., not virtual items in the virtual world. Intellectual property is art you create, a process you develop, or an item you invent. Virtual items don't even exist as far as property law is concerned. Legally, virtual property trades are a service, not a purchase, because you get no assets in exchange for the money.

Game currency companies WERE sued once; the currency sellers won. Because the "property" they sell doesn't actually exist in a legal sense, there's no laws being broken, and the currency companies themselves don't have any contracts with the game companies that they could be sued for breach of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a double bladed sword for the adena sellers too though.

You can basically rip them off thru paypal, and they cannot get you in trouble, as the "property" you are buying doesnt exist. So you can buy whatever you want, and recall your payment with very little reprocussions. (Maybe an angry email or two ^^)

It works :P

[EllieBelly]

That applies to anything though, we sold a camera once through ebay, got paid through paypal, shipped it out. The buyer claimed they didn't authorize it or something, paypal stripped our money right out of our account, and we were also out a camera. :/

[Crestfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
That applies to anything though, we sold a camera once through ebay, got paid through paypal, shipped it out. The buyer claimed they didn't authorize it or something, paypal stripped our money right out of our account, and we were also out a camera. :/

[/ QUOTE ]

Paypal has way too many loopholes.

But doing this with virtual items is much easier :P

[Wardrum]

and here is how the sellers get away with selling their "time spent" and not the characters themselves:

" ***DISCLAIMER*** Please note, I am NOT selling this character, as the EULA of Lineage 2 states that all characters are the intellectual property of NCSoft. I am simply charging for the time and effort put into building this character. The winning bidder will receive only the corresponding login and password used to enter the account. Because these codes were created by me and independent of any NCSoft involvement, NCSoft and all agents acting on their behalf have no right to sanction my selling of it nor do they have any right to prevent me from charging a buyer for the time it took me to produce it. Again, for those of you who may not understand: This auction does not violate any of Ebay's policies. If you are an employee of NC Soft or acting as an agent on their behalf, you may not bid on this item and by bidding on this character you are stating that you are in no way associated with NCSoft Corporation. Lineage II: The Chaotic Chronicle are trademarks of the NC Soft Corporation. All characters, items and game currency are the property of the NC Soft Corporation. *** By bidding you agree to the following: I am selling the time invested in the procurement of this item (the hundreds of hours in research and play time). I am not selling any proprietary interest of NC Soft. You are purchasing my time and skill which equate to the above item. You acknowledge that you are not an employee of, independent contractor of, nor in any way related to NCSoft Corporation or any company or individual acting on the behalf of NCSoft . You are not bidding on this item to obtain information about the seller. You are making a Good-Faith bid for the purchase of the time spent on this item. You agree to indemnify me for any losses I incur as a result of the breach of this agreement. That means you will owe me the fair market value of this item at the time of the posting of this auction if you defraud me and violate this agreement by trying to have my account banned or harmed in any way through NCSoft"

[EllieBelly]

Even with that stack of fancy talk, you are still giving your account to someone else for a fee and that still isn't allowed. Remember they said even account sharing outside of like, immediate family was a no no.

[Lisanna]

[ QUOTE ]
Legally, virtual property trades are a service, not a purchase, because you get no assets in exchange for the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Because the "property" they sell doesn't actually exist in a legal sense, there's no laws being broken, and the currency companies themselves don't have any contracts with the game companies that they could be sued for breach of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't there something in the law that could be used here? I mean, the service in question can only be used if they are in violation of something they agree to by logging into the game.

[Wardrum]

[ QUOTE ]
Even with that stack of fancy talk, you are still giving your account to someone else for a fee and that still isn't allowed. Remember they said even account sharing outside of like, immediate family was a no no.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know how it is with laws. Many, MANY loopholes. "I'm not giving away, I make a donation." Ka-ching tax deduction.

People will ALWAYS find a way to win the law simply by using "a stack of fancy talk" :/

[EllieBelly]

Oh I know, accounts will still get sold no matter what. However if you post all that nonsense on ebay, I bet it still gets taken down.

[Zhanig]

eBay will only deal with it while it is a hot topic, but bottom line, unless it is illegal or immoral, then eBay will sell it. They are a business. It is far too hard to police something like that. Remember NcSoft said in the 1st year of Lineage 2 they had gotten eBay to agree to deal with it then and it took about all of 2 months before everything was back to normal.

This is a far bigger question than a simple company like eBay can deal with.

[TailChaser]

[ QUOTE ]
and here is how the sellers get away with selling their "time spent" and not the characters themselves:

" ***DISCLAIMER*** Please note, I am NOT selling this character, as the EULA of Lineage 2 states that all characters are the intellectual property of NCSoft. I am simply charging for the time and effort put into building this character. The winning bidder will receive only the corresponding login and password used to enter the account. Because these codes were created by me and independent of any NCSoft involvement, NCSoft and all agents acting on their behalf have no right to sanction my selling of it nor do they have any right to prevent me from charging a buyer for the time it took me to produce it. Again, for those of you who may not understand: This auction does not violate any of Ebay's policies. If you are an employee of NC Soft or acting as an agent on their behalf, you may not bid on this item and by bidding on this character you are stating that you are in no way associated with NCSoft Corporation. Lineage II: The Chaotic Chronicle are trademarks of the NC Soft Corporation. All characters, items and game currency are the property of the NC Soft Corporation. *** By bidding you agree to the following: I am selling the time invested in the procurement of this item (the hundreds of hours in research and play time). I am not selling any proprietary interest of NC Soft. You are purchasing my time and skill which equate to the above item. You acknowledge that you are not an employee of, independent contractor of, nor in any way related to NCSoft Corporation or any company or individual acting on the behalf of NCSoft . You are not bidding on this item to obtain information about the seller. You are making a Good-Faith bid for the purchase of the time spent on this item. You agree to indemnify me for any losses I incur as a result of the breach of this agreement. That means you will owe me the fair market value of this item at the time of the posting of this auction if you defraud me and violate this agreement by trying to have my account banned or harmed in any way through NCSoft"

[/ QUOTE ]

Try using this argument to sell a copy of a song you downloaded from the internet and burned onto a CD. The big difference between a song and virtual property is that laws exist to protect songs. Virtual property is a gray area for now.

[KingdomForCoin]

so all that is needed then is for someone to stand up and say that vitual property is a intellectual asset? btw (at least in my mind) a username/password to an account that already exists seems like an intellectual assest. or is it also virtual?

[Saek]

that wont stop adena being sold. the bulk of adena sellers do not go through ebay, they go through adena selling websites.

[TailChaser]

[ QUOTE ]
so all that is needed then is for someone to stand up and say that vitual property is a intellectual asset? btw (at least in my mind) a username/password to an account that already exists seems like an intellectual assest. or is it also virtual?

[/ QUOTE ]

A usename and password are keys to the virtual property. I hate to say this but the EULA maybe not be legally binding in its entirety and can vary from state to state. Can't you make a legal transaction with a minor? The law says no. But can minors purchase items? Yes they can. The definition of a minor can vary from state to state and can include circumstances.

[Wardancer]

The adena sellers in Korea may have shot themselves in the foot by forming a trade union to resist the S. Korean government from cracking down on their practices. Apparently, it's a big deal over there...

... where the problem (for the sellers) comes in is that, now that they have declared themselves a "trade union" they want to be considered a legitimate business. For a legitimate business from outside the US to do business in the US (ie, on a server located within the borders of the US), they have to register with the US Treasury department.

This means they can be taxed. It also means that there will, most likely, be a definitive statement handed down regarding what is and what is not virtual property and intellectual property.

Speaking of, there was a man in China, I believe, who was scammed in a game very similar to Lineage II, who took the case to court. He claimed that the company who made the game were liable for the replacement of the items that were, he claimed, stolen from him, as they had a real-life (ie, eBay) market value of some $200. The company countered by saying that the items had no value, they did not interfere in player affairs, etc.

He won, and his items were returned.

[Wardrum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and here is how the sellers get away with selling their "time spent" and not the characters themselves:

" ***DISCLAIMER*** Please note, I am NOT selling this character, as the EULA of Lineage 2 states that all characters are the intellectual property of NCSoft. I am simply charging for the time and effort put into building this character. The winning bidder will receive only the corresponding login and password used to enter the account. Because these codes were created by me and independent of any NCSoft involvement, NCSoft and all agents acting on their behalf have no right to sanction my selling of it nor do they have any right to prevent me from charging a buyer for the time it took me to produce it. Again, for those of you who may not understand: This auction does not violate any of Ebay's policies. If you are an employee of NC Soft or acting as an agent on their behalf, you may not bid on this item and by bidding on this character you are stating that you are in no way associated with NCSoft Corporation. Lineage II: The Chaotic Chronicle are trademarks of the NC Soft Corporation. All characters, items and game currency are the property of the NC Soft Corporation. *** By bidding you agree to the following: I am selling the time invested in the procurement of this item (the hundreds of hours in research and play time). I am not selling any proprietary interest of NC Soft. You are purchasing my time and skill which equate to the above item. You acknowledge that you are not an employee of, independent contractor of, nor in any way related to NCSoft Corporation or any company or individual acting on the behalf of NCSoft . You are not bidding on this item to obtain information about the seller. You are making a Good-Faith bid for the purchase of the time spent on this item. You agree to indemnify me for any losses I incur as a result of the breach of this agreement. That means you will owe me the fair market value of this item at the time of the posting of this auction if you defraud me and violate this agreement by trying to have my account banned or harmed in any way through NCSoft"

[/ QUOTE ]

Try using this argument to sell a copy of a song you downloaded from the internet and burned onto a CD. The big difference between a song and virtual property is that laws exist to protect songs. Virtual property is a gray area for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you dont pay anything to lime**** or so. Its a totally different thing.

[TailChaser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and here is how the sellers get away with selling their "time spent" and not the characters themselves:

" ***DISCLAIMER*** Please note, I am NOT selling this character, as the EULA of Lineage 2 states that all characters are the intellectual property of NCSoft. I am simply charging for the time and effort put into building this character. The winning bidder will receive only the corresponding login and password used to enter the account. Because these codes were created by me and independent of any NCSoft involvement, NCSoft and all agents acting on their behalf have no right to sanction my selling of it nor do they have any right to prevent me from charging a buyer for the time it took me to produce it. Again, for those of you who may not understand: This auction does not violate any of Ebay's policies. If you are an employee of NC Soft or acting as an agent on their behalf, you may not bid on this item and by bidding on this character you are stating that you are in no way associated with NCSoft Corporation. Lineage II: The Chaotic Chronicle are trademarks of the NC Soft Corporation. All characters, items and game currency are the property of the NC Soft Corporation. *** By bidding you agree to the following: I am selling the time invested in the procurement of this item (the hundreds of hours in research and play time). I am not selling any proprietary interest of NC Soft. You are purchasing my time and skill which equate to the above item. You acknowledge that you are not an employee of, independent contractor of, nor in any way related to NCSoft Corporation or any company or individual acting on the behalf of NCSoft . You are not bidding on this item to obtain information about the seller. You are making a Good-Faith bid for the purchase of the time spent on this item. You agree to indemnify me for any losses I incur as a result of the breach of this agreement. That means you will owe me the fair market value of this item at the time of the posting of this auction if you defraud me and violate this agreement by trying to have my account banned or harmed in any way through NCSoft"

[/ QUOTE ]

Try using this argument to sell a copy of a song you downloaded from the internet and burned onto a CD. The big difference between a song and virtual property is that laws exist to protect songs. Virtual property is a gray area for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you dont pay anything to lime**** or so. Its a totally different thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked at this argument again and this will not stand up in court. Why? Because there is an item being traded. Said item is virtual property of NCSoft. By the EULA the seller does not own anything and so should not be able to trade anything related to Lineage2. The argument of time being sold is irrelevant.

Powerleveling is a different story. Now THAT is paying for someone else's time.

[Wardrum]

There are a lot of things you could say against a court. And I dont mean to be racist or anything, but in USA things said in court are outrageous.

For example. I just auctioned a random page of my notebook. It just happened to contain my account info. :S

[Abisha]

well anyone knows that Virtual Property going to play a MAJOR role in the next 10 years more and more stuff gets created on the PC witch turns into (software) witch they like NCsoft is the rightfull owner of the software but they grand you the right to use the account witch you bought ?? like the game box then you have to agreed on a EULA but you cant get refounds if you dont agreed ????? so i not saying the Sellers of the Ebay things are legal but sure as hell NCsoft is also not very legal in doing bisness
and sinds it's virtual it not even realy exist?
just a crazy world we life in lol

[Zhanig]

[ QUOTE ]

Try using this argument to sell a copy of a song you downloaded from the internet and burned onto a CD. The big difference between a song and virtual property is that laws exist to protect songs. Virtual property is a gray area for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't create the song. There for this is a bogus argument. Thru our time, we are creating the wealth of the world and certainly the value of the account. If the items in the account have real world value then our work created that value.
What ever any company says, without the players, the is no economy and no value.

[Arigato]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there something in the law that could be used here? I mean, the service in question can only be used if they are in violation of something they agree to by logging into the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

EULA violators themselves can be banned, but that's about the extent of it. It's not illegal to do an action that breaks a contract you didn't sign. E.g. say I know that Bob has a contract with my competitor to sell widgets only at my competitor's store. I ask Bob to sell me some and he does. Bob certainly can get sued for breach of contract, but I can't, because I didn't sign the contract.

Further, under contract law, they can only sue to collect damages. That is, if you violate the EULA, in order to successfully sue you, NC needs to prove they lost money because of your contract violation, and then they can sue you for that money plus their legal fees. Punitive damages are inapplicable in most civil suits except where conduct is especially heinous.

[ QUOTE ]
I looked at this argument again and this will not stand up in court. Why? Because there is an item being traded. Said item is virtual property of NCSoft. By the EULA the seller does not own anything and so should not be able to trade anything related to Lineage2. The argument of time being sold is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except legally, there IS no such thing as virtual property. The item being traded does not legally exist. NCSoft only has the rights to the data insofar as the data is being stored on their servers. And even if there was a law that would consider the item to be NCSoft's virtual property, the item doesn't leave their server. It's their property before and their property after the trade.

It is indeed, from the court's point of view, a service, because an asset (money) is being given and no asset (as the virtual item doesn't exist) is given in return.

[Arigato]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if FBI closed [Private server]

why they cant close

[Adena selling sites]

and others

as i understud by NC Soft rules E-sell/E-buy is restricted

[/ QUOTE ]

Because private servers are illegal; they are blatent copyright infringement.

Gold selling is legal under US law. NCSoft's EULA is a contract, not a law; you can't be arrested for breaking it (and the gold selling companies themselves are not breaking the contract). You could be sued for breaking the contract, but again NCSoft would need to prove economic damages in order to win.

The FBI won't arrest you for breaking the rules of the game anymore than they'll arrest you for cheating at golf.

[Wardrum]

Sueing someone for an account transaction is a waste of time imho. Account/gold sellers can be easily proved innocent with a tad of wordplay. Laws on virtual transactions and virtual items are still very "young" and unclear, so until the e-law projects of each country are complete, things like this will happen all the time.

[TailChaser]

[ QUOTE ]
Sueing someone for an account transaction is a waste of time imho. Account/gold sellers can be easily proved innocent with a tad of wordplay. Laws on virtual transactions and virtual items are still very "young" and unclear, so until the e-law projects of each country are complete, things like this will happen all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's why the EULA says something to the effect of service being discontinued for any reason and without notice. Easier to smack the hammer than go into courts.

[Crest]

Dealing with virtual funds and items is extreamly profitable too, ive made like $2000 from selling accounts etc from assorted games, then again ive probably paid alot into accounts and etc, but im sure theres still a big profit at the end

[Populater]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealing with virtual funds and items is extreamly profitable too, ive made like $2000 from selling accounts etc from assorted games, then again ive probably paid alot into accounts and etc, but im sure theres still a big profit at the end

[/ QUOTE ]

Just Wow.... thanks for sharing?