SE being Nerfed? [Archive] - Lineage II Forums

_Charmille_

10-02-2007, 06:40 AM

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Oh, so it doesn't return health at all if you have more than 5? It isn't useless.

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"This is the deal with the VR nerf.

Lets say you have 10 mobs in your aoe radius with 10%VR and you hit each one for 1000 damage.

The FIRST mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 100 HP.
The SECOND mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 50 HP.
The THIRD mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 25 HP.
The FOURTH mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 12 HP.
The FIFTH mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 6 HP.
The SIXTH mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 3 HP.
The SEVENTH mob you hit in the radius will VR you back 1 HP.
The EIGTH through TENTH mob will not VR back any health.

So in Interlude you would VR back 1000 hp on 10 mobs in this example.
In CT1 you will VR back 197 hp in this example."

197 hp is about the same as 2 mobs hitting you. Maybe one, depends where and in what gear you are. And that is with 1k DMG per mob, not taking into notion misses or the fact that only Destroyers will be doing that kind of dmg in Frenzy(no crits) to mobs of around same lvl.

Practically, it does not return any health at all. For more realistic numbers, change that 1k dmg to 400 dmg and see what happens.

You're gonna be losing around 800hp per swing with 10 mobs only, multiply that by 2 and you get a pretty normal sized train. 1,6k dmg in around 1,5s. While you still will be getting only about 150hp or less back.

I_Faithkil

10-02-2007, 07:03 AM

Yea, this truly sucks the life out of my warlord sub that unlike the titan and dwarf classes only gets pole arm masteries, because there solo purpose in life is to AOE. The big question is, are they going to nerf the BD VR dace in the same manner.

ProdaznayaShkura

10-02-2007, 08:56 AM

Yes.And WC buff.
I prolly keep my warlord sub to help level my friends bishop sub as high as possible before ct hits.And then do what all warlords that i nkow has already done - delete my sub.

I_Faithkil

10-02-2007, 09:00 AM

Lol, WL is my 1st and was hopping to get nobleless with it, but I guess not now :(

Gnatalye

10-02-2007, 09:31 AM

Ug... you complain about having nothing to do, and now when you get something to do you complain...

The point is the lowered the effectiveness of VR, so you will have to heal now, instead of sitting down and reading a book.

Does it suck for pole users? You bet it does, but we are talking about SEs.

_Charmille_

10-02-2007, 09:39 AM

SE heals wont be able to keep a poler alive... SE heals for about 700hp using greater heal, which cant be spammed and is quite slow to cast.

SE heals are a non factor. SEs are nothing but buff/recharge pets in CT1.

ProdaznayaShkura

10-02-2007, 09:57 AM

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The point is the lowered the effectiveness of VR, so you will have to heal now, instead of sitting down and reading a book.

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SE heals wont be able to keep a poler alive... SE heals for about 700hp using greater heal, which cant be spammed and is quite slow to cast.

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QFT
I sometimes heal a poling FS (79lvl FS and FP cata or Disciples necro), and with current VR efect i barely keep my mp up.I use invo and mp elixirs as soon as they are ready and still any bad pull leads to mp rest.Without vr i have mp for one room , so i have no iliusions that my SE will be needed as a healer.

Gnatalye

10-02-2007, 10:05 AM

If you are doing that many, then bring another healer. If I kill a lot of monsters really fast on my mage then run out of mana, I don't complain about running out of mana. I realize that I did more than one healer can handle... and I get another one.

Charmille did the math already for me and it is about 200 health back a swing in the next patch. If you swing oh say about once a second (which you will fully buffed)... that is 200 health a second. Don't you think 200 health a second + greater heals is about equal to major heal? I guess we won't really know until we have had the chance to test it ourselves. Having an SE there is FAR from useless. I have a high level SE myself, and I got bored in AoE parties. All I would do is buff VR and sit.

However, again, I will state that this is NOT a nerf to the SE, it is a nerf to the pole parties, and it GIVES the SE something to do. Ok, so maybe they can't keep the health up from someone hitting 10 monsters without running out of mana... but guess what? The other healers can't without VR either.

Krissa

10-02-2007, 10:37 AM

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If you swing oh say about once a second (which you will fully buffed)... that is 200 health a second. Don't you think 200 health a second + greater heals is about equal to major heal?

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200 HP per second alone is equal or better than Major Heal MP regen wise. But with Major Heal you have much better chances to survive overpulls.

ProdaznayaShkura

10-02-2007, 11:27 AM

We are pulling one room at once , at dawn week w/ HW and other buffs from 74 lvl prophet.About inviting another healer - first you need to find one , and then that healer probably leaves because exp is bad already.
To get 200 hp per swing you need to have really high p atk.Dont think that warlord or dwarfs could get that much with ct vr.

Kia13

10-05-2007, 02:26 AM

forget pve, SEs are welcome in any PVE party, its the pvp part you should worry about coz in next update... it will get even worse for SEs in pvp ....

AlexisValentine

10-06-2007, 02:34 PM

This sucks to hear. So... is there any point in having a SE as a main or any advantage towards live SE's? :(

Kia13

10-08-2007, 02:08 AM

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This sucks to hear. So... is there any point in having a SE as a main or any advantage towards live SE's? :(

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well if you want to do pvp in eng game, dont go SE, pick more EE or BP if you wanna heal, if buff pick WC, OL or PP

but still live SE > box SE

DevilStar

10-09-2007, 07:59 AM

The VR nerf isn't a nerf to the SE class, it's a nerf to those using polearms.

SE's aren't pole users last I checked.

And anyway, the change makes sense where pole users are concerned. The ******ed levelling speed possible in this game via AoE justifies the change to VR where poles are concerned. An example of what I'm talking about is the fact that a Titan in lower forge can power level toons at a ******ed speed. 40-75 in 3 days in one instance. That kinda thing is why this change has been made and makes some degree of sense. What was possible with poles and oop buffs is insane, this fixes it.

ProdaznayaShkura

10-09-2007, 12:20 PM

FYI there is 3 more pole classes that havo no frenzy.

Nanashi_Naomhan

10-09-2007, 09:16 PM

no there isn't
apparently all pole users lvl at ******ed speeds while plvling 8 other ppl nd never needing heals hence why the nerf was done :/

DevilStar

10-10-2007, 12:23 AM

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FYI there is 3 more pole classes that havo no frenzy.

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Wow seriously? Can I hazard a guess as to what those are?

Warlord, Warsmith and Bounty Hunter I'll guess.

Warlords also level at ******ed speeds, I've witnessed it. Maybe not everyone but it most certainly is possible and remember it's because it is possible to do so which is the reason behind the change.

The dwarven classes maybe not so much which is a little rough, dwarves need a bit of love since they always get the short end of it. But none the less, there's half the classes that AoE who can level at ******ed speeds.

When other classes can do mid 60's - 75 in less than a week as a WL/Destro can in the right circumstances then we can reconsider.

Either way you look at it this thread was about it beign a nerf to SE's, which it is not. It is a nerf to pole users using oop VR and needing virtually no heals (hence no healer) if they play smart, levelling ridiculously fast is still possible in comparison to virtually every other class.

DevilStar

10-10-2007, 12:28 AM

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no there isn't
apparently all pole users lvl at ******ed speeds while plvling 8 other ppl nd never needing heals hence why the nerf was done :/

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You're poor at this and to be honest you picked possibly the worst person to try such sarcasm with lol.

No not everyone can do it without needing heals, that very idea is ******ed because not everyone has access to the support classes required to make it that way.

However as it is possible, changes are made. I mean what does this really force pole users to do? Group healers and support classes?

Should I even get into the advantages of using a pole which still remain such as the soulshot usage in comparison to other classes that level single target?

How utterly despicable of ncsoft, shame on you.

Nanashi_Naomhan

10-10-2007, 12:42 AM

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When other classes can do mid 60's - 75 in less than a week as a WL/Destro can in the right circumstances then we can reconsider.

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what exactly are these circumstances?
before you go any further i lvled my necro from 40-75 in under 5 weeks using only a lvl 72 se ( i lvled it to 74.5 while i was at it)
at no point did i spend more than 4 hours a day or more than 5 days a week xping but obviously some of that time was spent in crap xp groups and pwning S graders (mostly at 60+ but some at 70+)

if your argument is that with COV and OOP dances and heals you can lvl fast then its a pretty weak one imo

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Should I even get into the advantages of using a pole which still remain such as the soulshot usage in comparison to other classes that level single target?

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an archer arguing cost of lvling huh? thats a new one

ProdaznayaShkura

10-10-2007, 02:37 AM

To get really good exp in higher levels aoe without live healers you need a CoV/PoF and BD.I guess on your server ever pole user has whole set of boxes including 78lvl DC or HP, but on Sieg its different FYI.

DevilStar

10-10-2007, 05:48 AM

You're really not getting what I said at all.

I said it is possible (and it is and no not requiring oop cov/pof or w/e else) not that everyone does it. The mere fact that it is possible and should not be is why the change is being made. Whether you like it or not that's how it is.

ProdaznayaShkura

10-10-2007, 09:15 AM

Oh i see.All pole users that do not level at insane speeds with oop support are just lazy.
Because all archers do insane crit damage they must be nerfed to hell.Some do not run around with stacked boss jewels and stacked pvp groups , PR/SR cant carry insane amounts of pots , but the fact that its possible to crit for so much damage and carry around hundreds of gcp/qhp should be enough to nerf all archer classes.
Really ******ed logic imo.

_Charmille_

10-10-2007, 09:39 AM

And nukers can reach insane crit rates while doing massive dmg. Reason enough to nerf them too. HEY, lets nerf every class that can deal dmg with 3 buffers, boss jewels and OE'd weapons!

DevilStar

10-10-2007, 09:43 AM

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Oh i see.All pole users that do not level at insane speeds with oop support are just lazy.
Because all archers do insane crit damage they must be nerfed to hell.Some do not run around with stacked boss jewels and stacked pvp groups , PR/SR cant carry insane amounts of pots , but the fact that its possible to crit for so much damage and carry around hundreds of gcp/qhp should be enough to nerf all archer classes.
Really ******ed logic imo.

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Way to stick to the point lol.

I didn't say those that do not level at ******ed speeds are lazy, you're putting words in my mouth, don't.

I'm not sure what archers have to do with this but I will say the crit damage possible is absolutely ******ed and is in need of some serious fixing, I've always said that. I do also agree the amount of pots able to be carried is ******ed. You know what though, the amount of pots I can carry isn't a problem, it's the reuse time on them. They can be spammed at intervals of 0.4 seconds. Notice how nobody cried about cp pots before the reuse time was greatly decreased.

Now as the archer comments were quite obviously a dig at me, especially so since you direct it at my class I'll give you a tip. You'd do well not to assume things, because when your ******ed sarcasm gets thrown back in your face like it just did you look pretty dumb.

As for logic, it would be nice if you were to use some yourself instead of butthurt ranting and ******ed assumptions which couldn't be further from the truth.

Like it or not there are ******ed means of xp possible with poles at the moment whether or not you or others can take advantage of it and like it or not the devs have seen fit to remove that possibility probably not in the best way which is their usual way of doing it but it's happened. Deal with it.

oEliinao

10-10-2007, 02:43 PM

Buffs matter too much in this game.. Nuff said :(

Nanashi_Naomhan

10-10-2007, 09:07 PM

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Like it or not there are ******ed means of xp possible with poles at the moment whether or not you or others can take advantage of it and like it or not the devs have seen fit to remove that possibility probably not in the best way which is their usual way of doing it but it's happened. Deal with it.

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are the are ******ed methods of xpping with a bow as well
while L room xp has fallen out of fashion due to FOG destro plvling most melee classes in game would kill for that sort of xp - obviously you need an OOP doom cryer sws and bd but it's amazing xp

Gnatalye

10-11-2007, 10:57 AM

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And nukers can reach insane crit rates while doing massive dmg. Reason enough to nerf them too.

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Yes it is, but in this case we have an easy way to fix it, and that is to fix the wild magic augment (or take it out). This is kind of like, just as an example, giving an archer a level 80 skill that makes him be able to shoot an arrow that kills it's target, no matter what. Sounds overpowered? But not everyone is level 80... so lets just leave it in the game so the poor sub 80 archers don't have to suffer.

Honestly a good way to fix this would be to (and I know some of you will hate me) do what WoW does. Each buff has a "level" attached to it. For example, if you are a 78 buffer, and cast focus 3 on a level 10 character, he only gets focus 1... and you can't even cast PoF on him. Do that, then nerf pole VR just a little bit (not as much as now). That takes care of the powerleveling at low levels. Also, put a cap on VR, and only raise it when the level cap is raised. That takes care of huge pulls in FoG with 78 out of party buffers, and also helps with soloing raid bosses

Sigge

10-20-2007, 04:39 PM

There is one simpel fix to all of this.

1. You have to be in the same group as your buffer. Otherwise, dum dum dum.. the buffs drop.

2. Buffs have ranged. If you go beyond this fixed range of your buffer... dum dum dum.. the buffs drop.

3. If the buffer dies. then, you've guessed it, your buffs drop.

This would mean:

1. No more lame "bring your own buffer" type party setups.

2. No more Overbuffed insane exp sessions (Unless your actually leveling all the toons at the same time)

3. Overlords will truly be awesomesause.

4. No more buffing from safe distance. Your buffs are part of the fight, so you, the buffer, should be out there risking it. This would make Warcryers, Overlords and Prophets by far the best buffers cause.. Heavy armor Masteries!!!1!

Want to know why it wont happen? Fat cash from 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. hell even 7. accounts.

It the absolutely most simpel and effective solution to both inspire people to play the support characters and to make sure that leveling, unless you feel like leveling two new toons everytime, a social thing. Which provides new players with what they need the most, groups. Groups of players who aren't "boxing" their way from 1 to 79.

Pirotesa

10-21-2007, 04:18 AM

100% Agree! :mad:

Krissa

10-22-2007, 12:37 AM

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This would mean:

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...if your healer disconnects mid-fight, you can still survive with pots/elixirs/buffer's battleheal/CoL. If you buffer disconnects, you die.

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4. No more buffing from safe distance. Your buffs are part of the fight, so you, the buffer, should be out there risking it. This would make Warcryers, Overlords and Prophets by far the best buffers cause.. Heavy armor Masteries!!!1!

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Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sigge

10-22-2007, 01:01 AM

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This would mean:

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...if your healer disconnects mid-fight, you can still survive with pots/elixirs/buffer's battleheal/CoL. If you buffer disconnects, you die.

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4. No more buffing from safe distance. Your buffs are part of the fight, so you, the buffer, should be out there risking it. This would make Warcryers, Overlords and Prophets by far the best buffers cause.. Heavy armor Masteries!!!1!

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Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about.

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1. Would be easy to make a 2-3mins count down timer from a disconnect. The point is, the buffer needs to be an asset to the group when he plays. Not when he's standing back a <insert town> gatekeeper.

2. Actually I do.

Krissa

10-22-2007, 03:18 AM

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1. Would be easy to make a 2-3mins count down timer from a disconnect.

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Then what all this fuss for? People already box singers/dancers.

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The point is, the buffer needs to be an asset to the group when he plays.

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In my groups, live buffers usually are an asset. If you aren't better than a box, maybe there is something wrong with you?

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2. Actually I do.

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Really? Then how come that you happen to think that:

1. An SE needs yet another nerf?
2. Buffers, especially boxed ones, aren't the last toons to catch aggro in groups?
3. PDef of a live buffer benefits group's survivability more than the buffer's castspeed and MP pool do combined?

DevilStar

10-22-2007, 05:00 AM

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This would mean:

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...if your healer disconnects mid-fight, you can still survive with pots/elixirs/buffer's battleheal/CoL. If you buffer disconnects, you die.

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4. No more buffing from safe distance. Your buffs are part of the fight, so you, the buffer, should be out there risking it. This would make Warcryers, Overlords and Prophets by far the best buffers cause.. Heavy armor Masteries!!!1!

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Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about.

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1. Would be easy to make a 2-3mins count down timer from a disconnect. The point is, the buffer needs to be an asset to the group when he plays. Not when he's standing back a <insert town> gatekeeper.

2. Actually I do.

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It's a flawed idea. If your buffer disconnects there can be a number of reasons he or she misses the reconnect window. How many times have people got a crit error and come back to a random gameguard error like the one that tells you to check your firewall? Or even a sudden routing issue to the game servers. How about you're going to a raid boss or rushing from town at a siege and buffer needs to go afk and auto follows someone, buffer gets stuck and party loses buffs through no fault of their own.

If the buffer can't reconnect by the time the buffs wear off the group is dead in the water or must find another buffer. What you're proposing is done so with good intentions but with poor logic applied. Penalising people across the board for not having a buffer in party for a variety of reasons, some of which are beyond player control will not fix any of the problems you are seeking to resolve.

Your intentions are good, your logic and methods of implementation and execution are somewhat below par. Besides, if the group has buffs then the buffer has been an asset to the group as you state they are supposed to be, your idea forcefully removes that asset despite whose fault it is for the absence of a buffer in party or keeping up with the party.

_Charmille_

10-22-2007, 05:10 AM

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There is one simpel fix to all of this.

1. You have to be in the same group as your buffer. Otherwise, dum dum dum.. the buffs drop.

3. Overlords will truly be awesomesause.

4. No more buffing from safe distance. Your buffs are part of the fight, so you, the buffer, should be out there risking it. This would make Warcryers, Overlords and Prophets by far the best buffers cause.. Heavy armor Masteries!!!1!

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You even play the game? Overlords till now, buff the ALLIANCE. Thats not a single party, that can be several hundred people. With your change, they'd buff only the same 8 people in addition to themselves that a WC does. GG. Secondly, OLs miss _many_ useful buffs, so you'd still need to have several other buffers at hand. OLs would be totally useless, a WC could do the same with more buffs.

In CT1, OLs are getting the nerf stick by becoming Clan only buffers, even more gimp then. Lets limit them to party only too, great idea! Your parts 1. and 3. dont really work together.

And about heavy masteries, I hope that was a joke?

Your suggestions are the most simple way to drive lots of players away from L2 and make it a dead game.

Sigge

10-22-2007, 06:53 AM

The reason for the Overlord change is an attempt to make it useful to have more then 1 OL pr Alliance. Its not a nerf, its actually supposed to help Overlords. They are of course also the exception to the rule since they cant buff a group if they aren't Clan/Alliance... duh... That's why I listed them as to become really good with this change.

Drive what players away? The people who box all day long? Most likely, but they don't contribute anything game play wise to anyone. Other then grossly over buff them selves and solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed that way and make gross experience while doing it. The effectiveness of 2+ classes rolled up into one. That is just bad PvP and Pve design.

And this change would make SE awesome healers, like their Warcryer counterpart. Right now Shielien Elders are considered poor healers, why? Because there is always some boxed toon giving VR. With my changes, they would great healers in any melee group. Vampiric Rage + Greater heal (Warcryer + Chant of life), sweet sweet healers. They just do it the passive way compared to Bishops and Elven Elders who are pretty awesome healers without passive buffs.

Are you saying that Buffers take more damage in robes? Sure they can't buff everyone with everything, in heavy, but grossly over buffed players are never a good thing. There has to be some limitation on the amount of buffs that can be passed out to one player. And most important, they have to get invited to the group and show up on the field of battle for their enhancements to work. Cause they are the reason why other players do more damage, live longer and so forth compared to the players that do not show up with the buffs.

Krissa

10-22-2007, 07:06 AM

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The reason for the Overlord change is an attempt to make it useful to have more then 1 OL pr Alliance.

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It's always useful to have more than 1 OL per alliance.

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Its not a nerf, its actually supposed to help Overlords.

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Lol, how?

It's actually supposed to nerf alliance bonds. You can be sure, noone in NCsoft cares about OLs.

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And this change would make SE awesome healers, like their Warcryer counterpart. Right now Shielien Elders are considered poor healers, why?

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I have no idea what game you are playing, but in Lineage II Interlude, SEs are much better healers than WCs.

_Charmille_

10-22-2007, 07:21 AM

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The reason for the Overlord change is an attempt to make it useful to have more then 1 OL pr Alliance. Its not a nerf, its actually supposed to help Overlords. They are of course also the exception to the rule since they cant buff a group if they aren't Clan/Alliance... duh... That's why I listed them as to become really good with this change.

Drive what players away? The people who box all day long? Most likely, but they don't contribute anything game play wise to anyone. Other then grossly over buff them selves and solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed that way and make gross experience while doing it. The effectiveness of 2+ classes rolled up into one. That is just bad PvP and Pve design.

And this change would make SE awesome healers, like their Warcryer counterpart. Right now Shielien Elders are considered poor healers, why? Because there is always some boxed toon giving VR. With my changes, they would great healers in any melee group. Vampiric Rage + Greater heal (Warcryer + Chant of life), sweet sweet healers. They just do it the passive way compared to Bishops and Elven Elders who are pretty awesome healers without passive buffs.

Are you saying that Buffers take more damage in robes? Sure they can't buff everyone with everything, in heavy, but grossly over buffed players are never a good thing. There has to be some limitation on the amount of buffs that can be passed out to one player. And most important, they have to get invited to the group and show up on the field of battle for their enhancements to work. Cause they are the reason why other players do more damage, live longer and so forth compared to the players that do not show up with the buffs.

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It is already useful to have more than 1 OL per Alliance. Chain casting Ally Invincibility. Chain casting CP and HP. And really, it is a nerf since most of NA clans arent that big as to support the OLs same way their alliance could have.

Do you even know how many people have boxes? How many people couldnt really play because of their real life unless they use boxes? And they dont contribute to the game, says who? You? Whining buffers dont contribute anything to the game either. Secondly, there's a maximum of 24 buff slots in this game. Why would it be something negative to actually use them up?

WCs are not good healers, far from it. WCs are BUFFERS. SEs are POOR healers because frankly, their heals are not up to the task in PVP.

Seen any real PVP? Buffers and healers are there already. And they sure as hell arent wearing heavy armors.

DevilStar

10-22-2007, 09:02 AM

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The reason for the Overlord change is an attempt to make it useful to have more then 1 OL pr Alliance. Its not a nerf, its actually supposed to help Overlords. They are of course also the exception to the rule since they cant buff a group if they aren't Clan/Alliance... duh... That's why I listed them as to become really good with this change.

Drive what players away? The people who box all day long? Most likely, but they don't contribute anything game play wise to anyone. Other then grossly over buff them selves and solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed that way and make gross experience while doing it. The effectiveness of 2+ classes rolled up into one. That is just bad PvP and Pve design.

And this change would make SE awesome healers, like their Warcryer counterpart. Right now Shielien Elders are considered poor healers, why? Because there is always some boxed toon giving VR. With my changes, they would great healers in any melee group. Vampiric Rage + Greater heal (Warcryer + Chant of life), sweet sweet healers. They just do it the passive way compared to Bishops and Elven Elders who are pretty awesome healers without passive buffs.

Are you saying that Buffers take more damage in robes? Sure they can't buff everyone with everything, in heavy, but grossly over buffed players are never a good thing. There has to be some limitation on the amount of buffs that can be passed out to one player. And most important, they have to get invited to the group and show up on the field of battle for their enhancements to work. Cause they are the reason why other players do more damage, live longer and so forth compared to the players that do not show up with the buffs.

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I am now convinced that if you actually DO play Lineage 2, you're pretty horrible at it.

Please stop posting and polluting these forums with such garbage.

SE's and WC's are HORRIBLE healers, they're horrible at it. Paladins can potentially heal better than SE's and WC's.

WTH is passive healing? WTH is a healer with passive buffs?

People who box buffers DO contribute to the game. I've lost count of how many xp parties would never have got underway had I or one of my friends not dual boxed a buffer, I'd hazard a guess and say there are countless others in NA who do the same thing.

It is not possible to grossly overbuff, there are a certain amount of buffslots and you are free to fill them as you wish. Using the maximum amount of buffs possible makes things run better, be it xp groups or pvp. People who don't buff right are a bad thing, they don't xp efficiently and they are a pain to fight with and against in pvp.

Any live buffer who cannot give my group every buff we need because they want to use heavy armor instead of robes is going to get cut, there are few people who would not do the same. A boxed oop buffer is worth more to me than an idiot like that.

Please, keep your ideas to yourself and any of your friends who live in your delusional fantasy world.

Pirotesa

10-22-2007, 09:18 AM

More like Lionna's finest fool, and a selfish one at that. It's funny how you have no problem giving your opinion yet condemn others for giving theirs.

Players such as yourself contribute absolutely nothing to the game community. Gah, why even try, there are lower forms of simians that have more care for a community balance than you and your like.

Sigge

10-22-2007, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason for the Overlord change is an attempt to make it useful to have more then 1 OL pr Alliance. Its not a nerf, its actually supposed to help Overlords. They are of course also the exception to the rule since they cant buff a group if they aren't Clan/Alliance... duh... That's why I listed them as to become really good with this change.

Drive what players away? The people who box all day long? Most likely, but they don't contribute anything game play wise to anyone. Other then grossly over buff them selves and solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed that way and make gross experience while doing it. The effectiveness of 2+ classes rolled up into one. That is just bad PvP and Pve design.

And this change would make SE awesome healers, like their Warcryer counterpart. Right now Shielien Elders are considered poor healers, why? Because there is always some boxed toon giving VR. With my changes, they would great healers in any melee group. Vampiric Rage + Greater heal (Warcryer + Chant of life), sweet sweet healers. They just do it the passive way compared to Bishops and Elven Elders who are pretty awesome healers without passive buffs.

Are you saying that Buffers take more damage in robes? Sure they can't buff everyone with everything, in heavy, but grossly over buffed players are never a good thing. There has to be some limitation on the amount of buffs that can be passed out to one player. And most important, they have to get invited to the group and show up on the field of battle for their enhancements to work. Cause they are the reason why other players do more damage, live longer and so forth compared to the players that do not show up with the buffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am now convinced that if you actually DO play Lineage 2, you're pretty horrible at it.

Please stop posting and polluting these forums with such garbage.

SE's and WC's are HORRIBLE healers, they're horrible at it. Paladins can potentially heal better than SE's and WC's .

WTH is passive healing? WTH is a healer with passive buffs?

People who box buffers DO contribute to the game. I've lost count of how many xp parties would never have got underway had I or one of my friends not dual boxed a buffer, I'd hazard a guess and say there are countless others in NA who do the same thing.

It is not possible to grossly overbuff, there are a certain amount of buffslots and you are free to fill them as you wish. Using the maximum amount of buffs possible makes things run better, be it xp groups or pvp. People who don't buff right are a bad thing, they don't xp efficiently and they are a pain to fight with and against in pvp.

Any live buffer who cannot give my group every buff we need because they want to use heavy armor instead of robes is going to get cut, there are few people who would not do the same. A boxed oop buffer is worth more to me than an idiot like that.

Please, keep your ideas to yourself and any of your friends who live in your delusional fantasy world.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I lost count of how many Prophets, Shilien Elders, hell even "real" healers that have quit or rerolled because the line was always: Naah, we got one boxed, thank you come again. Thats the reason WHY you have trouble make exp parties now without have to box something. And I have been around since Beta so I know what im talking about.

And a passive heal is that buff you ever so badly want all the time. Vampiric rage. With melee hits you HEAL yourself.

If SE's are so bad healers, why are they needed for Polegroups? BECAUSE VR HEALS THE POLE USER?!?! lol Does that cut it out for you Cap. Caveman? Which brings me back to my first statement. SEs are bad healers because someone always boxes the VR buff. PvP might be a different story healing wise, but then the SE offers stuff like Empower, death whisper and so forth. Filling up its Hybrid Buffer Healing role just fine.

But Boxing character are now such a big part of the game that nobody ever thinks about it anymore and NCsoft is stuck trying to balance the classes because of it. And its great money for them.

My changes would make L2 a much more fun game for everyone and not just the boxers. But you two are obviously the usual "powergamers" that wont leave town unless they have all the buffs otherwise the evening is ruined lol.

_Charmille_

10-22-2007, 11:02 AM

And you alongside Piro are 2 grumpy, grudgy, bad buffers who wanna ruin the fun for everyone else.

You dont need a SE for pole groups. WC can do the buffing just fine. Heck, if you're doing 1/2HP poling, you can do it fine with a EE or Bishop. And for PVP, SE offers only Emp and recharges really, so why on earth should someone actually play one? WC and PP can buff better, EE and Bishop can heal better. Whats left for SE? Oh right, buffing EMP and recharging.

So, you've been here since Beta... so what?

PS. The dominant classes these days are archers and nukers... so VR is insignificant to them.

Sigge

10-22-2007, 11:13 AM

"You dont need a SE for pole groups. WC can do the buffing just fine."

Again lol, its cause of Vampiric Rage. Which again brings me back to my statement. SE and WC are decent healers if someone isn't just boxing the VR effect.

"So, you've been here since Beta... so what?"
So what? So I have seen a lot of my Healers and Buffers get sick and tired of boxed toons and leave. And I don't play one.

"PS. The dominant classes these days are archers and nukers... so VR is insignificant to them. "
Which ever class is FOTM has nothing to do with the buff/healing part of the game. But last I checked Empower is nice for casters, now if only they couldn't just grab it off some boxed SE standing at the gatekeeper or which ever.

_Charmille_

10-22-2007, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Again lol, its cause of Vampiric Rage. Which again brings me back to my statement. SE and WC are decent healers if someone isn't just boxing the VR effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats the difference between a boxed VR buffer and a non-boxed one when it comes to VR efficiency? NOTHING. A boxed SE is as good as a live SE when VR is being used. Hence there is no real reason to have a LIVE SE around even. If they enjoy playing support, they'd better be making bishops and EEs and let someone just box the 2 buff wonder called SE.

[ QUOTE ]

So what? So I have seen a lot of my Healers and Buffers get sick and tired of boxed toons and leave. And I don't play one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've prolly seen more people leave because of bots and the unbalance in PVP, so whats your point again? Boxing keeps people playing this broken game.

[ QUOTE ]

Which ever class is FOTM has nothing to do with the buff/healing part of the game. But last I checked Empower is nice for casters, now if only they couldn't just grab it off some boxed SE standing at the gatekeeper or which ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, but it does have lots to do with support. If over 60% of the server is archers, then ofcourse support suited for their needs is more needed. And let me tell you a secret, SE is not one of them. Secondly, FoTM classes are high DPS classes, so in PVP, healers that cast fast and can heal large amounts of HP instantly are needed. Again, the SE gets the shaft since both Bishops and EEs are better at it. For empower, there's always scrolls, boxes and the _few_ live ones.

Pirotesa

10-22-2007, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And you alongside Piro are 2 grumpy, grudgy, bad buffers who wanna ruin the fun for everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that amusing. We're ruining everyone's fun by saying that boxing infringes on players who want to play classes that are boxed/botted, but can't play them because there are no groups to level with. But no, boxing is ok, because it doesn't affect anyone at all, but the person who boxes, lol.

I've seen many players that liked to play support quit, but it's ok, no harm right? You still get to play because you have your box and now you have the benefit of not having to share anything at all. So it's ok, you are blameless, honestly, you are. This game is really hard, so you have every right to box/bot. I wonder how the support class players level without a group??? Oh well, too bad for them, huh? You have your box, so it's not your problem, and you have no idea why everyone wants to ruin your fun, lol. You should drop everything and stop being a forum jockey and go into comedy.

_Charmille_

10-22-2007, 11:54 AM

I'll do that when you go for some emo-cutting drama that you seem so good at. Remember kiddo, it's down the road, not across the street.

PS. You can find any class on bot, point being? Oh yea, you think that boxing and botting is the same... riiight.

Oldfart

10-22-2007, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And you alongside Piro are 2 grumpy, grudgy, bad buffers who wanna ruin the fun for everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that amusing. We're ruining everyone's fun by saying that boxing infringes on players who want to play classes that are boxed/botted, but can't play them because there are no groups to level with. But no, boxing is ok, because it doesn't affect anyone at all, but the person who boxes, lol.

I've seen many players that liked to play support quit, but it's ok, no harm right? You still get to play because you have your box and now you have the benefit of not having to share anything at all. So it's ok, you are blameless, honestly, you are. This game is really hard, so you have every right to box/bot. I wonder how the support class players level without a group??? Oh well, too bad for them, huh? You have your box, so it's not your problem, and you have no idea why everyone wants to ruin your fun, lol. You should drop everything and stop being a forum jockey and go into comedy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose when some people wanna just go off and solo in an open-field, they just wanna drag along their box. But I and many others will support live healers and buffers, because they know there are many places in the game, especially at higher levels, where a live healer/crowd controller is very helpful, and in some places probably a must.
C'mon already, I know this is a sore spot to you, but many, maybe most, just don't see it the same way at all. Like I said once before, if you're on Seighardt and you're even half-good, c'mon and join me. If you're not on Seighardt, start over (if you're halfway good), and I'll personally powerlevel you with my Destro and SH. OK? And no offense, but if you do consider that, just make sure you know how to do the crowd control/recharges/heals (including Purify, or whatever fits the situation). Those are the things live SEs/EEs/Bishops/Prophets/WCs OLs are needed for.

DevilStar

10-22-2007, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
More like Lionna's finest fool, and a selfish one at that. It's funny how you have no problem giving your opinion yet condemn others for giving theirs.

Players such as yourself contribute absolutely nothing to the game community. Gah, why even try, there are lower forms of simians that have more care for a community balance than you and your like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Selfish? lol no, I have no issue with valid, halfway sensible opinions. What I'm reading in here though doesn't even remotely come close to that. All I see here is a sever lack of knowledge as to how this game works and what the many consequences would be in various situations would do if implemented.

I contribute plenty to the people I choose to play this game with, I always have and to me those are the only people that matter.

Keep throwing the RL insults though lol, pretty pathetic.

DevilStar

10-22-2007, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason for the Overlord change is an attempt to make it useful to have more then 1 OL pr Alliance. Its not a nerf, its actually supposed to help Overlords. They are of course also the exception to the rule since they cant buff a group if they aren't Clan/Alliance... duh... That's why I listed them as to become really good with this change.

Drive what players away? The people who box all day long? Most likely, but they don't contribute anything game play wise to anyone. Other then grossly over buff them selves and solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed that way and make gross experience while doing it. The effectiveness of 2+ classes rolled up into one. That is just bad PvP and Pve design.

And this change would make SE awesome healers, like their Warcryer counterpart. Right now Shielien Elders are considered poor healers, why? Because there is always some boxed toon giving VR. With my changes, they would great healers in any melee group. Vampiric Rage + Greater heal (Warcryer + Chant of life), sweet sweet healers. They just do it the passive way compared to Bishops and Elven Elders who are pretty awesome healers without passive buffs.

Are you saying that Buffers take more damage in robes? Sure they can't buff everyone with everything, in heavy, but grossly over buffed players are never a good thing. There has to be some limitation on the amount of buffs that can be passed out to one player. And most important, they have to get invited to the group and show up on the field of battle for their enhancements to work. Cause they are the reason why other players do more damage, live longer and so forth compared to the players that do not show up with the buffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am now convinced that if you actually DO play Lineage 2, you're pretty horrible at it.

Please stop posting and polluting these forums with such garbage.

SE's and WC's are HORRIBLE healers, they're horrible at it. Paladins can potentially heal better than SE's and WC's .

WTH is passive healing? WTH is a healer with passive buffs?

People who box buffers DO contribute to the game. I've lost count of how many xp parties would never have got underway had I or one of my friends not dual boxed a buffer, I'd hazard a guess and say there are countless others in NA who do the same thing.

It is not possible to grossly overbuff, there are a certain amount of buffslots and you are free to fill them as you wish. Using the maximum amount of buffs possible makes things run better, be it xp groups or pvp. People who don't buff right are a bad thing, they don't xp efficiently and they are a pain to fight with and against in pvp.

Any live buffer who cannot give my group every buff we need because they want to use heavy armor instead of robes is going to get cut, there are few people who would not do the same. A boxed oop buffer is worth more to me than an idiot like that.

Please, keep your ideas to yourself and any of your friends who live in your delusional fantasy world.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I lost count of how many Prophets, Shilien Elders, hell even "real" healers that have quit or rerolled because the line was always: Naah, we got one boxed, thank you come again. Thats the reason WHY you have trouble make exp parties now without have to box something. And I have been around since Beta so I know what im talking about.

And a passive heal is that buff you ever so badly want all the time. Vampiric rage. With melee hits you HEAL yourself.

If SE's are so bad healers, why are they needed for Polegroups? BECAUSE VR HEALS THE POLE USER?!?! lol Does that cut it out for you Cap. Caveman? Which brings me back to my first statement. SEs are bad healers because someone always boxes the VR buff. PvP might be a different story healing wise, but then the SE offers stuff like Empower, death whisper and so forth. Filling up its Hybrid Buffer Healing role just fine.

But Boxing character are now such a big part of the game that nobody ever thinks about it anymore and NCsoft is stuck trying to balance the classes because of it. And its great money for them.

My changes would make L2 a much more fun game for everyone and not just the boxers. But you two are obviously the usual "powergamers" that wont leave town unless they have all the buffs otherwise the evening is ruined lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the people I know that quite playing the likes of an SE did so because the class sucked [censored] and was no fun to play at all.

I mean seriously, what does an SE do? Buffs empower or VR every 20 minutes and pop off some recharges if levelling with a nuker. The rest of the time they do what? Sit around waiting to give out 2 buffs and the odd recharge, yeah, that is tons of fun, seriously.

Buffing VR is not healing, it is buffing. The actual healing ability of the class and also the WC is terrible. BD gets VR dance, should we class the BD as a healer now too and call it a bad healer? Seriously...

I agree that SE's do need some balance, their healing ability needs to be greatly increased. They have no unique buffs other than Prophecy of Wind. Your propesed changes though will not change the fact that people use them out of party. Same goes for any buffer, there are simply too many scenarios where your changes will render other players helpless in being able to play.

What they need to do is make the actual class interesting to play by giving it skills that are needed by the other classes in the game. Currently that is not the case, I can get every buff I need from other classes which are not an SE which are far more actively played and as I mentioned before, SE doesn't even have a unique buff other than PoW which in most cases isn't wanted over the other prophecy buffs.

As for the powergamer comment. I don't mind admitting the fact that at one point I had access to every possible end game buff and yes at times I did go solo with them. Mostly though I did that when the people that would normally play those support classes were not around and I took people with me many a time when I did not need to, especially support classes, I like to pvp you see and my pvp parties don't tend to work very well without the support classes I need. They need to be active and of a level suitable to properly support the party.

And for the last time, SE's aren't being nerfed, if anything the change to VR with poles is a boost for them. People need VR and will need heals on top of that with the change, live SE's will be a bit more desired. The only people nerfed in this change are the pole users who currently enjoy oop VR.

jkoster

10-22-2007, 03:00 PM

As someone who recently rerolled from an SE but still plays it regularly, I have this to say:

I often find myself as the only buffer and healer in a group, and we do just fine. It's a matter of knowing how to control your MP, of knowing just how your heals (and yes, our heals blow compared to the true healers) affect EVERYONE in the party, and what people can get away without having.

I would like to remind everyone that calls the SE a two-buff wonder that we actually have a few other skills that are useful. Purify, holy resist, wind shackle, dryad root, sleep (mine still works when I use shots and make an appointment with the mob), etc.

A live buffer can contribute to the group, even moreso if there is a prophet or WC / OL covering the 'standard' buffs.

Are the SEs healers? No. Can they heal? Yes.
Are the SEs the best buffers? No. Can they give good buffs? Yes.

They wouldn't be boxed as much if they weren't worth something.

While I believe the fault lies in the community for this, I say "Eh, whatever. Box if you want. Just don't complain when I don't party with you."

Sigge

10-22-2007, 03:25 PM

"Buffing VR is not healing, it is buffing. The actual healing ability of the class and also the WC is terrible. BD gets VR dance, should we class the BD as a healer now too and call it a bad healer? Seriously... "

In my book, heal is when your or one of the players you support gain hit points back. Be it a straight heal, a heal over time or a buff that adds healing to you melee strike. Point is that no melee class can do this without the help of the WC, SE or BD. Now, the BD doesn't have a castable heal which leaves it rather lacking in the healing part. But WC HoT is fine or a decent melee group in Cats. Done it many times. Because every melee toon can heal them selves on with melee attacks and the WC just compliment his buff with Chant of Life should the situation require it.

"I would like to remind everyone that calls the SE a two-buff wonder that we actually have a few other skills that are useful. Purify, holy resist, wind shackle, dryad root, sleep (mine still works when I use shots and make an appointment with the mob), etc."

Most players don't even know that lol. SE has 2 buffs, done. And those buffs are given by boxed SE's who prolly once were real players who quit. Also love the "SE cast so slow they are useless". That is really just BS. There was some truth to before the Tatoo system. But now its just an old wives tale.

Oldfart: Thanks for the offer, really tempted but I don't have the time to start over and I played support in Dark Age of Camelot for something like 5 years. That game had exactly the problem as Lineage II has. Out of group buffing. Mythic listened to player base and release new server types were out of party buffing was not allowed. The game changed in such an amazing way and there was an great flow in the exp for new players cause nobody could just "wander off" solo with their bots. Daoc was and still is the absolute crown of RvR/PvP. With herbs dropping now, there is no reason why people can't solo without boxing.

Out of party support is killing the game, especially at the lower levels were new players to game operate.

_Charmille_

10-22-2007, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I often find myself as the only buffer and healer in a group, and we do just fine. It's a matter of knowing how to control your MP, of knowing just how your heals (and yes, our heals blow compared to the true healers) affect EVERYONE in the party, and what people can get away without having.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how much it will gimp the lvling spots and the actual exp you get...

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to remind everyone that calls the SE a two-buff wonder that we actually have a few other skills that are useful. Purify, holy resist, wind shackle, dryad root, sleep (mine still works when I use shots and make an appointment with the mob), etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prophets are alot better at buffing, they have Holy resist too and compared to an SE, they will root anything ;) They also got stuff like Bless the Body&Soul, shield buffs, greater might/shield, zerk etc. Compared to those, windshackle is a non-factor skill. And if an exp party needs windshackling, rooting and sleeping to survive...

[ QUOTE ]
A live buffer can contribute to the group, even moreso if there is a prophet or WC / OL covering the 'standard' buffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that live prophet or WC will be contributing to the group. Team them up with a healer and they're infinitely better in most cases.

[ QUOTE ]
While I believe the fault lies in the community for this, I say "Eh, whatever. Box if you want. Just don't complain when I don't party with you."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say the fault lies with NCSoft making the skillsets on different classes really unbalanced. Herb drops dont help either, they've pretty much eliminated the need for VR in fields.

Oldfart

10-22-2007, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oldfart: Thanks for the offer, really tempted but I don't have the time to start over and I played support in Dark Age of Camelot for something like 5 years. That game had exactly the problem as Lineage II has. Out of group buffing. Mythic listened to player base and release new server types were out of party buffing was not allowed. The game changed in such an amazing way and there was an great flow in the exp for new players cause nobody could just "wander off" solo with their bots. Daoc was and still is the absolute crown of RvR/PvP. With herbs dropping now, there is no reason why people can't solo without boxing.

Out of party support is killing the game, especially at the lower levels were new players to game operate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sigge, I should have mentioned, I was talking to Pirotesa. As far as saying that OOP support is killing the game, I'm not ready to go that far. But I do see the shortage of live healers and buffers is a problem for all players, not just for the people who want to play healers and buffers as mains. And I tend to agree that the trap is set because boxing is so easy at lower levels. Although I'm not at 74+ yet, I think somewhere around that level, I've gotten the impression that the viabilty of playing with boxed healers, in or out of party, starts to get more difficult. And I think the devs have apparently done way too much shafting of SEs. They need to start thinking of the impact on real-life, flesh-and-blood people who choose to play these classes and invest years in building up a character, only to find that NC decides their class has too much of something and decides to start nerfing it.

Krissa

10-23-2007, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If SE's are so bad healers, why are they needed for Polegroups?

[/ QUOTE ]
To recharge a Bishop, lol.

Or are you talking about some lowbie catacomb pole "groups", when all you need is one pole user and one Might3/Focus/DW/Guidance/VR buffs dispenser?

Krissa

10-23-2007, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Prophets are alot better at buffing, they have Holy resist too and compared to an SE, they will root anything ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
How come? It's SE who has higher Int and selfbuffed Empower, not PP.

[ QUOTE ]
And if an exp party needs windshackling, rooting and sleeping to survive...

[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with having fun in PvE? :p

_Charmille_

10-23-2007, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In my book, heal is when your or one of the players you support gain hit points back. Be it a straight heal, a heal over time or a buff that adds healing to you melee strike. Point is that no melee class can do this without the help of the WC, SE or BD. Now, the BD doesn't have a castable heal which leaves it rather lacking in the healing part. But WC HoT is fine or a decent melee group in Cats. Done it many times. Because every melee toon can heal them selves on with melee attacks and the WC just compliment his buff with Chant of Life should the situation require it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What lvl were you again? NM Light has 3% VR, so every melee CAN get HP back without any of the above classes. Not to mention clanhalls or the boss jewels...

[ QUOTE ]
Most players don't even know that lol. SE has 2 buffs, done. And those buffs are given by boxed SE's who prolly once were real players who quit. Also love the "SE cast so slow they are useless". That is really just BS. There was some truth to before the Tatoo system. But now its just an old wives tale.

[/ QUOTE ]

Old wives tale? Really? lvl 80 Shillien Saint, +4 WIT, Arcana mace Acu, DC robes, Acumen, Dance of Concentration, Zerk, Magnus Chant AND Malaria lvl 4 has 1575 cast speed. EE with the same setup, 1907, Bishop 1649. Not to mention they have faster, better heals... So really, come again when you know what you're talking about.

_Charmille_

10-23-2007, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How come? It's SE who has higher Int and selfbuffed Empower, not PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zerk and Acumen. In the time the SE has cast 1 root, the PP has done several. Heck, in the time SE casts root, the mob has been killed already.

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with having fun in PvE? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing, but it does not make a class useful, really. Gimp exp is gimp exp even if you had tons of fun. And personally, the PVE of L2 is not great. There's no change from lvl1 to lvl 80. But hey, if you enjoy mindless grinding with a poor setup(leading to even more mindless grinding needed) I'm not stopping you. Go ahead, charge at the bugbears and waste your time killing them in a poor party. And after that, come on boards complaining how you cant make money and how SS is draining all your adena etc.

Krissa

10-23-2007, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Most players don't even know that lol. SE has 2 buffs, done.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's actually how most live SEs position themselves. And then whine how they suck compared to buffboxes (Piro even went so far to say that she cannot compete with autofollow, lol), and how NCsoft needs to change the game so that those 2-buff dispenser SEs are partied by everyone around.

If you want to play a simple class in parties, don't try to play a "passive" healer, lol. Reroll a dagger, make a /target/assist/attack macro and play while watching TV or reading a book or making a homework or whatever at the same time.

Krissa

10-23-2007, 12:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with having fun in PvE? :p

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing, but it does not make a class useful, really. Gimp exp is gimp exp even if you had tons of fun. And personally, the PVE of L2 is not great. There's no change from lvl1 to lvl 80. But hey, if you enjoy mindless grinding with a poor setup(leading to even more mindless grinding needed) I'm not stopping you. Go ahead, charge at the bugbears and waste your time killing them in a poor party. And after that, come on boards complaining how you cant make money and how SS is draining all your adena etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol.

SE+BD+Healer+BH. Commander or Hero rift. Enjoy :p

_Charmille_

10-23-2007, 01:02 AM

That isnt really great exp you know ;) And the party would be better off with a WC that can give haste among other things too.

Krissa

10-23-2007, 01:47 AM

Exp is not the main goal there, although it's not very bad either. And WC cannot recharge BH ;)

Edge

10-23-2007, 02:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And I think the devs have apparently done way too much shafting of SEs. They need to start thinking of the impact on real-life, flesh-and-blood people who choose to play these classes and invest years in building up a character, only to find that NC decides their class has too much of something and decides to start nerfing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can tell you what I have done: Reroll. Problem solved!

A game is supposed to be fun. I prefer playing a character that offers fun now, instead of whining about unreasonable changes that have only a slight chance to be implemented in some vague future.

ps: +1 for the polite writing :cool:

Sigge

10-23-2007, 06:06 AM

"What lvl were you again? NM Light has 3% VR, so every melee CAN get HP back without any of the above classes. Not to mention clanhalls or the boss jewels..."

lol... okay, so you have to be light armor. That's Daggers, Archers and Tyrants. Archers dont need it, Daggers will most likely not notice the 3% and archers, well.. Tyrants would get my pick as a class that would notice it, but aren't they trying to keep low hp because of skills? I doubt you'll start seeing tanks in light armor. Think most DD's who have the skills opts for the heavy version aswell. And I know clan buffs can be gotten, but few people with any real sanity finds it fun to exp then have to port every 20mins. But again here you have buffs that will allow you to solo without boxing. Even more reason to change the buff rules.

_Charmille_ I read a guide once that was about a militant approach to grinding in L2. Did you write that perhaps? It was something long the lines of screw everyone that didn't fit into my perfect setup group and did too much chatting (Wonder if Vent/TS counts aswell). Its those players who thrive with the boxing, while people with a social view on MMO's get shafted.

And SE were actually pretty decent solo'er back when wind shackle actually did something. anyways. I stand by my views and the scrappy population in L2 seems to back me up. Its has the makings of a great game but stuff like the buffing system screws it over.

ha!, found the guide. How to level with Charmille:
http://lineage2.gameamp.com/guide/viewGuides/54.php%21orderBy=

_Charmille_

10-23-2007, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
lol... okay, so you have to be light armor. That's Daggers, Archers and Tyrants. Archers dont need it, Daggers will most likely not notice the 3% and archers, well.. Tyrants would get my pick as a class that would notice it, but aren't they trying to keep low hp because of skills? I doubt you'll start seeing tanks in light armor. Think most DD's who have the skills opts for the heavy version aswell. And I know clan buffs can be gotten, but few people with any real sanity finds it fun to exp then have to port every 20mins. But again here you have buffs that will allow you to solo without boxing. Even more reason to change the buff rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, tanks are not DDs, keep them out of this. Secondly, BHs, Destros, Gladis, WLs and WS can all use light armor too. ****, they all get as many light masteries as they do get heavy masteries. Fail one mister. Okies, then about daggers... guess what set a fair number of THs use? TADAA, NM light. Fail two mister. Lets move to Tyrants, you even know their skills? Know the thing called fist fury for example? If a GK in Tallum Heavy with VR 2 needs pots or heals to maintain ~30%, NM sure as hell is useful for them too, and several Tyrants do use it for soloing. Fail three mister. Certain Gladi, WL and Destro builds are based on light armors(Titan with Draconic), bet you didnt know that either. Fail four mister. And lastly, the total ignoring of the boss jewels, fail five, you're totally out.

[ QUOTE ]
ha!, found the guide. How to level with Charmille:
http://lineage2.gameamp.com/guide/viewGuides/54.php%21orderBy=

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but that guide is pretty much the basics of L2 or any other grinding mmo. Cant take it? Go play My Little Pony.

PS. These boards have 30k registered users, max online around 1k, normally a few at the same time. Add the numbers up and compare them to the server statistics... These boards are not the voice of the people playing L2.

Warcow

10-23-2007, 11:15 AM

SE's are rechargers and duoboxes. As far as seiges or raiding, SE's are actually very valuable.

That being said, I think the next patch should let SE's char transfer to a difference class and delete SE's from the game, and replace them with a npc SE that you can oop lvl with. (basically a mercenary buffer)

Sigge

10-24-2007, 12:21 AM

Me: "Think most DD's who have the skills opts for the heavy version aswell."

You: "BHs, Destros, Gladis, WLs and WS can all use light armor too. ****, they all get as many light masteries as they do get heavy masteries."

Do you even read the posts before you start posting?

"Sorry, but that guide is pretty much the basics of L2 or any other grinding mmo. Cant take it? Go play My Little Pony."

No its not. Why even connect to a mmo to just sit there in silence going click click click. Some of the best players I have meet in this game have been hilarious to play with because of the chatting and talking. And I have played with Ginnunga/ReBorn on Bartz.

Kia13

10-24-2007, 06:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SE's are rechargers and duoboxes. As far as seiges or raiding, SE's are actually very valuable.

That being said, I think the next patch should let SE's char transfer to a difference class and delete SE's from the game, and replace them with a npc SE that you can oop lvl with. (basically a mercenary buffer)

[/ QUOTE ]

you mister do not know the value of live SE

_Charmille_

10-24-2007, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you even read the posts before you start posting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you? You intentionally avoided all the parts discussing light armor builds for SAID classes. Guess that would have underminded your stuff too much.

[ QUOTE ]

No its not. Why even connect to a mmo to just sit there in silence going click click click. Some of the best players I have meet in this game have been hilarious to play with because of the chatting and talking. And I have played with Ginnunga/ReBorn on Bartz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever heard of Ventrilo/Teamspeak/Skype for instance? They leave your hands free. Chatting ingame by typing slows you down significantly. Healers doing that can get people killed, especially when they're paying more attention to their 10 PMs than to the HP bar of their party members. A boxed buffer will never do this, it will always heal when you press the macro button.

There's certain party builds, where it does not matter if most of the support people are talking by typing, but it really does matter when it comes to PVP or dangerous EXP spots.

@Kia13, what your live SE can do better than my boxed one? Die by human error?

@PS I dont really care who you've partied with, since A. it is kinda hard to prove(even SS can be faked or taken from another site) and B. it matters jack [censored].

Sigge

10-24-2007, 03:36 PM

My conclusion to all your ranting...

Your a none factor in this game. You prefer to play with boxed characters. You could just be another NPC lol.

Charmilie gives you: Quest of solitude.

You must spend all your "free" time in a secluded dungeon, not trying to communicate with the world around you, cause by doing so will make you loose exp. And with all your macro fumbling, im sure pressing "push to talk" in Vent or TS is too much. Maybe your one of those anoying people with voice activation that makes people leave the channel.

Anyways, its obvious that some SE didn't invite you to group at some point in your L2 career or one of your friends/enemies leveled a lot faster then you because he played a support toon. Cause make the down right sub human comments you make about live players, there has to be more to it then just the functionality of a class lol.

Well, have fun :)

_Charmille_

10-24-2007, 04:20 PM

And you totally fail. Reason number one why people shouldnt act like they know something about human nature.

Non-factor, oh really? Now who then is a factor? A nameless forum noob who cant refute even simple things, draws conclusions too easily and who doesnt even have the guts to tell who he is ingame. Or what class for the matter. Oh riiiight, you must be the big factor here. Here's a lil secret for you: Everyone in L2 is as much non-factor as the next bloke.

I didnt say anywhere that I prefer to play with boxed characters, yet again, drawing conclusions so easily is a bad thing. You just fail.

Apparently, you also got no idea about macros(since you feel like they're something that one can fumble on) either, which then again, raises a question... Are you just a noob that started some months ago and got offended cos his big boobed SE is being insulted? There is no fumbling, try them and notice how easy they are.

I have a G15 keyboard and MX1000 mouse, thats plenty of buttons that can be programmed. And there is no need to fumble nor keep Vent active all the time, after all, I've got 10 fingers and a brain that can actually make use of them all.

SEs dont invite people to groups, people invite SEs to groups. Hence why Pirotesa and you are CRYING in the first place. And contrary to your "truths" I invite people to groups, or join groups. I might also just go solo with a boxed PP and SE in tow, because I can. Having a clan and alliance means that I can do all of that. Ultimately, it is my choice, and all of you anti-box whiners should realise it. People have all the right to choose boxing, for whatever reason they want. Be it strange playtime hours, lack of support classes, antisocial behaviour, language barriers or whatever.

So, when have you last logged into the game? Can you answer in Kia13s part, what a Live SE can do better than a boxed one? Come on, show how good the class really is!

PS. next time, try to type the name right, I know, I know, it can be hard to tell i apart from l, but really, copy pasting shouldnt be too hard...

PPS. Your Quest of Solitude is pretty much flawed from the start. If I'm chatting this much on boards, how much would I chat ingame with friends, clanmates and allymates... go figure Mister.

_Charmille_

10-24-2007, 04:34 PM

"Hi all,
Im looking for a clan on Teon. I aim for casual play. I have played L2 in the past (62 BD and 52 SE). Currently working on a human knight. Which is 22 right now. I played on bartz before, but it has been some time since I quit, so I don't really know much about the lastest updates..."

Your first post looking for a clan on Teon... proves quite much. I thought I remembered you from somewhere.

So, you're defending a class which you abandoned... ironic, eh Sigge?

Pirotesa

10-24-2007, 07:00 PM

Charmille, you have way too much time on your hands, Forum Monkey/Junkie.

Warcow

10-24-2007, 08:58 PM

bitter troll, imo.

Kia13

10-24-2007, 11:54 PM

Charmille, use search on forum, i think i did write it already in what live SEs are better than boxes .... at the end any live support, or any other live class is better than box, you may have G15 keyboard and MX1000 mouse but you will still end up with 1 head and 10 fingers and reach your limits where 2 heads and 20 fingers can do much much more and much faster

_Charmille_

10-25-2007, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Charmille, you have way too much time on your hands, Forum Monkey/Junkie.

[/ QUOTE ]

It helps when 4-5h of sleep is all you need ^^

Krissa

10-25-2007, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
@Kia13, what your live SE can do better than my boxed one?

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, be a real person to play with. Not just to spend time grinding, but to actually play.

[ QUOTE ]
Die by human error?

[/ QUOTE ]
For example. It's always better when someone else dies by their error, isn't it? :D

Sigge

10-25-2007, 04:32 AM

"So, you're defending a class which you abandoned... ironic, eh Sigge? "

I am not defending a class which I stopped playing. I am defending everyone who plays any healer or buffer actively. Doesn't matter which one it is. But you seem hell bent on proving that the SE class is worthless, which I disagree on strongly with. One of the biggest reason why the SE class is suffering is because the game play allows for people to just box the SE for its quality and afterwards call it a bad healer, when they couldn't survive 9/10 pve scenarios without it.

VR = Healing. Be it from SE, WC or BD doesn't matter. Its a simple buff that activates passive healing of the recipient. Only those 3 classes have it and the SE has a decent single target Heal with HoT component to further back up the healing in a pinch. That makes a good healer for any melee party. But when the buff can be gotten out of group from some boxed SE, the healing abilities of a live SE drops dramatically. Same can be said for a WC. If you had a WC stand outside group for buffs, what on earth would function of the live WC in your group be, go OOM from draining?

And your are defending Boxed characters and lol.. even bots as the posters above me already have pointed out.

You really should get a walker program and just go to town. Flawless and mechanical. Just how you like it :)

Pirotesa

10-25-2007, 05:21 AM

Exactly, the next step to boxing is to automate as much as possible. The first steps involve macros, then hardware that lets you refine the automation of the box even more, and lastly is full use of 3rd party illegal software. That mentality is of course a logical progression of someone who wants to level as easily as possible and with all the benefits that should be gained by playing with other players, but would rather not do so and thus breaking what is supposed to be a symbiotic system.

These days it's common practice to box 1-3 buffpets and now players even ask in these official forums, I refer you to this THIS (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=972260&an=0&page=0#Post9 72260) thread. Of course NC says it's ok, and so these types of players use that exonerate themselves of any possibility of wrongdoing. All the while continuing to contribute and exacerbate the problem. Now, the problem hardly exists, because for the most part, most live support classes are nonexistant. But it's ok, because the game is very difficult. CALs are made of stuff like this.

Shillien Elders (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/nemo_mz23/L2/SEdemotivator.jpg)

Krissa

10-25-2007, 06:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
VR = Healing. Be it from SE, WC or BD doesn't matter. Its a simple buff that activates passive healing of the recipient.

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be Regeneration. VR is an active selfheal buff. It requires a DD to actively do melee damage to be healed.

[ QUOTE ]
Only those 3 classes have it and the SE has a decent single target Heal with HoT component to further back up the healing in a pinch. That makes a good healer for any melee party. But when the buff can be gotten out of group from some boxed SE, the healing abilities of a live SE drops dramatically.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then how come that healers without VR (Bishops, EEs) can find groups?

[ QUOTE ]
Same can be said for a WC. If you had a WC stand outside group for buffs, what on earth would function of the live WC in your group be,

[/ QUOTE ]
I happened to be the healer in groups with boxed OOP WC. And your point is?

But, frankly, I prefer live WCs.

[ QUOTE ]
go OOM from draining?

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. How about learning what mid- and endgame is now (not what it was 3 years before in C1), and then commenting on the classes?

_Charmille_

10-25-2007, 07:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I am not defending a class which I stopped playing. I am defending everyone who plays any healer or buffer actively. Doesn't matter which one it is. But you seem hell bent on proving that the SE class is worthless, which I disagree on strongly with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you personally disagree with it, so what? The game mechanics clearly show that SE is quite worthless as a live player. If its potential can be reached 99% by boxing, why play it live to get 100% out of it? You're not defending every buffer and healer. Your system would screw many of them over. As I already said, anyone going SE should just change to EE/Bishop since one box can do the SE part as fine.

L2 has 4 worthy LIVE buffer/healers, WC, OL, EE and Bishop. Prophets are worthy only if the player actually knows what to do, instead of acting like a _BOX_ in the group. SE, the two buff wonder, can be boxed for those said 2 buffs.

[ QUOTE ]
VR = Healing. Be it from SE, WC or BD doesn't matter. Its a simple buff that activates passive healing of the recipient. Only those 3 classes have it and the SE has a decent single target Heal with HoT component to further back up the healing in a pinch. That makes a good healer for any melee party. But when the buff can be gotten out of group from some boxed SE, the healing abilities of a live SE drops dramatically. Same can be said for a WC. If you had a WC stand outside group for buffs, what on earth would function of the live WC in your group be, go OOM from draining?

[/ QUOTE ]

as Krissa said, VR is an active selfheal buff which requires a DD. Regeneration is a passive selfheal buff. You're also again ignoring the possibility of NM light, and obviously forget herbs too. VR is not mandatory for a melee DD anymore. Herbs made it so that you can go perfectly well with a PP.

HoT heals are horrible. They take a slot AND are not really that efficient IF you get into a pinch. You want a healer? Get EE or Bishop. Otherwise, GHP and QHP are better than a SE. To top it off, if the melee party is even decent, they dont need any heals. VR is plenty enough. Only bad party setups or too hard hunting spots lead to a pinch or healing needed in a normal melee party(pure DD party ;) ).

[ QUOTE ]
And your are defending Boxed characters and lol.. even bots as the posters above me already have pointed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okies, quote my exact words defending bots somewhere, anywhere. Cant do it? Get the [censored] out.

[ QUOTE ]
You really should get a walker program and just go to town. Flawless and mechanical. Just how you like it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

If I wanted easy lvls, I wouldnt bother with botting, I'd buy several accounts with 78+ toons on them. Obviously, you fail again. Next time, dont try to guess what I think, like or do.

PS. You should ask your clannies about all the changes that have come to NA since you played on Bartz, since you clearly still have HUGE gaps in your knowledge.

Pirotesa

10-25-2007, 12:43 PM

Is ANYONE at NCsoft reading this? Or are all of you just accepting that the NA Market is dead? Remember how coal mines work?

Belltre

10-25-2007, 05:50 PM

how do coal mines work anyway?

Kia13

10-25-2007, 10:46 PM

Charmille you really did not play with a good SE in party, otherwise you would not think that boxed SE is the best SE.

Krissa

10-26-2007, 12:34 AM

Unfortunately, most live SEs I partied with weren't good at their class.

It's much harder to be a good support compared to good DD, especially with such a limited skillset SEs have.

_Charmille_

10-26-2007, 01:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Charmille you really did not play with a good SE in party, otherwise you would not think that boxed SE is the best SE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really nice that you know who I've partied with and how good they are. Really, you couldnt fall farther from the truth.

Interlude SE != C3/C4 SE, which was a great asset to PVE groups.

Sigge

10-26-2007, 01:22 AM

"Yes, you personally disagree with it, so what? The game mechanics clearly show that SE is quite worthless as a live player. If its potential can be reached 99% by boxing, why play it live to get 100% out of it? You're not defending every buffer and healer. Your system would screw many of them over. As I already said, anyone going SE should just change to EE/Bishop since one box can do the SE part as fine."

lol, my system were you can't receive buffs from out side a group would screw them over? That's hilarious to read really. So your saying that all the support in Lineage 2 (Except SE) is currently benefiting from the fact that one class (Or does this include PP also?)can be boxed for its buffs. Otherwise the game would not be as great. Groups would suck, healers wont get parties and so on. That's a funny read.
How does a WC benefit from standing outside a group buffing? The reason why I think there is a huge population of WC'er is the fact that the buffs can't be given without at least a group invite. Now if only the buffs didn't stay after the WC left the group, I fail to see how that screws the Warcryer over or the Healer in the group, like EE or Bishop.

Its pretty standard for a any MMO group to have a Healer and a buffer. EE and Bishop aren't exactly buffers, that's the job of a WC or a PP. But in between those 2 groups lies the SE. It can offer both things, but just not as focused as either parties. The SE is a hybrid healer/buffer. And for most melee parties the SE can easy cover most of the stuff required for casters it can boost their damage and replenish their mana.

SE:
Casters: Increase damage, Increase critical rate, increase concentration, replenish damage. Mid core healing.

Melee: Increase accuracy, Increase Critical rate, increase critical damage, Healing through melee hits. Mid core healing

That is what you get from a SE in the party.

EE:

Casters: Replenish mana. Increase concentration. But super healing

Melee: Increase shield, Increase agility(dodge/evasion). And super healing.

More of a healer, not so great buffer.

PP:
Casters: Every thinkable buff except Empower (If I remember correctly). Sub 40 healing

Melee: Every thinkable buff except Vampiric Rage (If i remember correctly.) Sub 40 healing.

Pure buffer, healing is terrible.

See a pattern here? So by changing the group rule set I fail to see how it will screw any support class over except those that have been leveled or purchased for boxing purposes.

End of the day:
A party will need a buffer and a healer to succeed. EE and Bishop will be the healer, PP and WC will be the buffers. SE will be the in between class that can so some extent fill the role of both making it easier to make parties. This is not possible with the current OOP buffing.

_Charmille_

10-26-2007, 01:33 AM

Actually, EE has WM too, only thing they're missing for nukers is Empower. And your system would screw everyone over because buffs would fade when people disconnect, die and go CH/Town to port back/give specific buffs to everyone, not just their own parties.

Buffs working only inside a party would basically mean a dramatic drop in both PVE and PVP abilities. You really want to gimp people exping? Make them need even MORE hours of mindless grinding just to get 0.01% exp?

Sigge

10-26-2007, 01:52 AM

DC'ing would invoke a timer on the buffs, 3-5mins would work fine.

I don't gimp peoples exp, it would just mean that if they wanted to exp with buffs, they had to share their exp with the class that gave them the buffs. Not like it is now were almost every buffer is some boxed toon. I see it every day. Lets party, I'll bring my <insert PP or SE>. But its most likely too late to change it, cause those who wanted to play the classes are long gone and there are very few new ones coming. And if they do, they roll bladedancers. They are fairly protected against boxing, only the absolute solitude power gamer have the mindset to sit and invite/drop the BD every 3mins.

Krissa

10-26-2007, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
lol, my system were you can't receive buffs from out side a group would screw them over?

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. No more Nuker+EE and Nuker+SE duos sharing their buffs in adjacent grinding spots. No more PPs buffing at siege flags. No more buffs for noobs, no more buffs for friends. Raidbosses become messy, epic bosses become extremely messy. And so on.

On the other hand, it would do nothing good at all. It would just force players to invite their buffboxes into their groups. Buffs in L2 are overpowered, and at the same time the buffer classes are too boring to play. That's why there are so many boxes: there is just not enough supply of live buffers to satisfy the demand for buffs.

wasterx

10-26-2007, 02:32 AM

Well, they are giving buffers solo-ability now with wolf pets , which is probably the better solution, rather then these ideas of penalising those who exclude them via buff restrictions. So the concept is that boxing is fine, but the excluded supports will be given solo ability instead.

SE and PP will be the best wolf handlers I think, which is good because they are the 2 most vulnerable to boxing.

Regarding PvP, I think its inevitable that SEs will get a healing boost eventually....

_Charmille_

10-26-2007, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
DC'ing would invoke a timer on the buffs, 3-5mins would work fine.

I don't gimp peoples exp, it would just mean that if they wanted to exp with buffs, they had to share their exp with the class that gave them the buffs. Not like it is now were almost every buffer is some boxed toon. I see it every day. Lets party, I'll bring my <insert PP or SE>. But its most likely too late to change it, cause those who wanted to play the classes are long gone and there are very few new ones coming. And if they do, they roll bladedancers. They are fairly protected against boxing, only the absolute solitude power gamer have the mindset to sit and invite/drop the BD every 3mins.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-5mins would work fine, lol. Buffs should last 1h and even if the buffer dc'd, still last for the whole duration for that part of the system to work. Even now, with the buffs staying for 20mins, you can get into trouble thanks to the buffer dropping. If it is ISP related, it seldom is fixed in 3-5minutes... If it is a poweroutage... well, get the point?

Krissa gave you valid examples of how you would gimp exp for others. Secondly, lets take a fully buffed party. It would need a healer(EE, Bishop) a buffer(PP or WC) and a SE if it is a nuker party. To add to that, it also needs a SwS and a BD. To have the _maximum_ benefit, it would need a PP and WC.

So, we end up with EE+WC+PP+SE+BD+SwS, ****, 6 people already. You can then get 3 actual nukers in it, woo hoo! 2 if you take ES too. Do you think that a party like that will do anything good?

Now, do you know how many nukers and archers there is? How many support classes compared to them? Unless you can get 200 000 new SUPPORT players into the game, you're ruining it for everyone.

PS. BD dances arent 3min...

Sigge

10-26-2007, 08:46 AM

"To have the _maximum_ benefit, it would need a PP and WC."

Your not supposed to have that, if they wanted that they would have made one buff class with a gzillion mp and all buffs. You supposed to mix up the classes and choose which you would prefer. Otherwise there would have been no reason for NCsoft to make more then one buffer class and one healing class. EE Bishop the healer choices, WC and PP the buffer choices and SE the hybrid to help if niether is avaible.

Buffs are overpowered in Lineage 2 because you can get just about every possible buff with boxing and you can do so at 0 risk by having your boxed horde at the gatekeeper or similar hard to reach or pvp disabled place.

This would result is much more balance if people had to chose which way they wanted to go. Do we go for max buffing? We get a WC/SE with a PP/SE, do we need full healing or would we need some recharging or similar Bishop/EE choices.

Not supposed to run around with everything possible. That's just ******ed but its the mindset that dominates this game now.

Sigge

10-26-2007, 08:57 AM

"ndeed. No more Nuker+EE and Nuker+SE duos sharing their buffs in adjacent grinding spots. "

How about, now I know this comes to a shock to most here.. grouping up and having some fun together?

Raids arent going to be any more complicated. Its just requires more planning group wise.

"SE and PP will be the best wolf handlers I think, which is good because they are the 2 most vulnerable to boxing."

That maybe true (I think tanks are better), but what are they leveling up to? Nothing... Hey guys, can I join your group? Naah, we don't need PP/SE. We got one sitting over there in the corner.

The fact that SE and PP are boring classes is a valid point, but that isn't solved by encouraging boxing.

"Now, do you know how many nukers and archers there is? How many support classes compared to them? Unless you can get 200 000 new SUPPORT players into the game, you're ruining it for everyone."

Erhm your not supposed to have your own person buffer along with you.. lol

Krissa

10-26-2007, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"ndeed. No more Nuker+EE and Nuker+SE duos sharing their buffs in adjacent grinding spots. "
How about, now I know this comes to a shock to most here.. grouping up and having some fun together?

[/ QUOTE ]
And where would such a 2-nuker 2-recharger group level? Show me at least one spot comparable with VoS or even FotD for duos.

wasterx

10-26-2007, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"
"SE and PP will be the best wolf handlers I think, which is good because they are the 2 most vulnerable to boxing."

That maybe true (I think tanks are better), but what are they leveling up to? Nothing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well , more or less the same as any other class who solos to end game....

Actually, PPs have quite a large end game role in the form of 6 hours olympiad point farming every night should they feel up to it.

SEs for some reason also seem to get OLY action, they are the only class which appears to actually have a steady stream of class based fights (maybe cos theres so many of them and they are so gimp in open)

I think the PvE issue is pretty much solved by the ability to solo with pets....... the PvP issue, I expect will be fixed in the forms of better heals , perhaps major heal, or some other pvp boost....this is inevitable as its impossible for NC not to notice the gimpdness of SEs in oly vs PPs. And one thing they can be trusted to do , is nerf/change classes based on OLY performance...

Oldfart

10-26-2007, 11:25 AM

The pets can help buffers and healers level. However, I keep reading that they are very expensive to maintain. This one fact keeps me from getting one.

_Charmille_

10-26-2007, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your not supposed to have that, if they wanted that they would have made one buff class with a gzillion mp and all buffs. You supposed to mix up the classes and choose which you would prefer. Otherwise there would have been no reason for NCsoft to make more then one buffer class and one healing class. EE Bishop the healer choices, WC and PP the buffer choices and SE the hybrid to help if niether is avaible.

[/ QUOTE ]

24 BUFF SLOTS ARE THERE FOR A REASON. You prolly dont even know how to get them.

[ QUOTE ]
Buffs are overpowered in Lineage 2 because you can get just about every possible buff with boxing and you can do so at 0 risk by having your boxed horde at the gatekeeper or similar hard to reach or pvp disabled place.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you wanna return to town every five minutes, suuuure. This proves that you've never seen high lvl content.

[ QUOTE ]
This would result is much more balance if people had to chose which way they wanted to go. Do we go for max buffing? We get a WC/SE with a PP/SE, do we need full healing or would we need some recharging or similar Bishop/EE choices.

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You clearly have no idea about max buffs... WC+SE or WC+PP or PP+SE cant accomplish that.

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Not supposed to run around with everything possible. That's just ******ed but its the mindset that dominates this game now.

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Not supposed according to who, YOU? Sorry, but you're not a developer.

_Charmille_

10-26-2007, 07:59 PM

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Erhm your not supposed to have your own person buffer along with you.. lol

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Well, since your buffers cant buff people outside their party, everyone will need PERSONAL buffers. 3-4 buffers per a few nukers/archers. WAY TO GO. Or are you suggesting people go hunt in FoG unbuffed?

Warcow

10-26-2007, 10:15 PM

~quoted below

If you were forced to keep buffers IN party for pve or pvp you notice that tactics might change for the better. If a buffer could simply leave a party because they dont appreciate their buffs, they can get some retribution by taking the buffs they gave. Similiar to how a DPS char no longer offers DPS when they leave party it only makes sense...

There would need to be some slight changes to mp regen to make chars not soo boxable, give all the buffers clear mind and mana gain passives imo. Prophets should get a prayer-like buff for gaining MP from recharges (they are buff specialists right?)

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(rant starts here)

Also ironically ncsoft keeps putting ingame mechanisms that passively "nerf" buffers. Herbs, buffscrolls, clanhall buffs/rezs, i mean come on ? How about some mercenaries, herbs that kill mobs for buffers, clanhall expboostbuffs(for buffers/healers)/partysummon(for buffers/healers) . . .

Ncsoft apparently wants everyone to play necros and hawkeyes when they encourage such poor gameplay mechanics like bsoes, brez's, buffscrolls.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, EE has WM too, only thing they're missing for nukers is Empower. And your system would screw everyone over because buffs would fade when people disconnect, die and go CH/Town to port back/give specific buffs to everyone, not just their own parties.

Buffs working only inside a party would basically mean a dramatic drop in both PVE and PVP abilities. You really want to gimp people exping? Make them need even MORE hours of mindless grinding just to get 0.01% exp?

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Krissa

10-26-2007, 10:30 PM

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Buffs are overpowered in Lineage 2 because you can get just about every possible buff with boxing and you can do so at 0 risk by having your boxed horde at the gatekeeper or similar hard to reach or pvp disabled place.

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No. Buffs are overpowered in Lineage 2 because a melee does twice as much damage with just PP lvl 56 buff.

Warcow

10-26-2007, 10:46 PM

Melee cant crowd control or cast heal on other players (~some ******ed exceptions) so they must benefit more from buffers. Considering the lvl 56 grind is really where prophets basiclly become OOP'd, I think what you described is more of a problem with how partying on L2 works.

As far as damage is concerned, with only a few buffs mages can put out fairly massive damage needing little support. The same cant be said about melee (~some ******ed exceptions)

Sigge

10-27-2007, 01:29 AM

"Also ironically ncsoft keeps putting ingame mechanisms that passively "nerf" buffers. Herbs, buffscrolls, clanhall buffs/rezs, i mean come on ? How about some mercenaries, herbs that kill mobs for buffers, clanhall expboostbuffs(for buffers/healers)/partysummon(for buffers/healers) . . ."

You just gave me an idea. Out of party DD. That would balance it. Melee should be able to add their bread and butter out of party aswell. So now you can level a buffer, let's say you hit the mob once and then just let the melee finish it off. Full exp to you, none for the melee. By the logic of the current system, this is fully justified.

This would most likely just increase the number of boxed PP and SE in the end game cause it would be easy to level one, but hey, the is already going down hill fast, why not increase the speed? 2 accounts pr. player is the way to go. Nobody is actually complaining about it. While in a game like Daoc everyone was ****** and complained endlessly about people who payed more money to the developer to win. (Buffbots)

But hey, Lineage II is and always will be a PvE game, so who cares.

Even blizzard were smart enough to NOT encourage buffpets... actually WoW is has a better pvp design then lineage II and that's pretty sad.

Krissa

10-27-2007, 02:57 AM

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You just gave me an idea. Out of party DD. That would balance it.

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Suggested many times and is partially addressed by NCsoft with CT1 wolves :p

Varaya

10-28-2007, 01:55 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
You just gave me an idea. Out of party DD. That would balance it.

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Suggested many times and is partially addressed by NCsoft with CT1 wolves :p

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... which drain 30 or 40% xp (can't remember which), so it is not really any effective way of "soloing"...

Contagion

11-22-2007, 01:12 PM

Sorry, but I just can't resist playing thread necromancer for a moment.

As an SE main, I've been very disappointed by NC's treatment of the class. In your average XP situation, a boxed SE works just as well or almost as well as a live one, assuming that an SE is needed in the first place (though the same can be said of other buffers in many situations).

As always, I have the most sympathy for sub-76 SEs, as they have even less to work with. Mana Burn was a neat idea for added PvP functionality, and it CAN be used in PvE (read: it's grossly inefficient in time and MP to use it effectively on an NPC, but I've found it useful once...maybe twice, lol), but it's not a high priority or highly effective skill outside of mass PvP or Oly.

SEs are awful healers. My lowbie PS sub's Nightshade can do almost as well with equivalent buffs, and its sacrifice heals don't take up a buff slot. If HoTs didn't consume buff slots, people would complain less about SE heals, but when you are hardcore XPing or PvPing with bd/sws, noblesse buff, 78 buff, and whatever-else-have-you, those buff slots become important, and no one wants useful buffs knocked off by a crappy HoT.

On one hand I am a little excited about having a new skill in CT1 to increase my SE's ability to recharge, but on the other hand I'm annoyed again because it doesn't do anything to alleviate the issue of SEs lacking useful active play options. 79+ SEs may not exactly grow on trees (there's a good reason for that...), but boxes work just fine for most things if it's just Recharge you want.

Gotta run, but my bottom line is that the SE is obviously useful since people like to box the class, but I'm impatiently waiting for some added functionality to make it more desirable for live players and to give it more utility in PvP.