Magic Power vs. Acumen SA

[AndreasK]

I made this in thread the form of a guide because there are a number of people who wonder what is the use of Magic Power SA. I have used both extensively, so I will try to write my view on this subject.

First I want to begin a brief description of both.
[u]Acumen[u]: is a pretty much straightforward SA. It simply increases your casting speed by 15%, independently from any other bonuses. That means that you can use your magic skills faster (affects both casting speed and skill reuse timer).
[u]Magic power [u]: is a more subtle SA. It increases M. Attack by a fixed amount (amount increases by weapon grade) but then your magical skills cost 15% more MP. Furthermore, this increase is not affected by any buffs (e.g. Empower). But it is affected by the use of spirit shots (since it is part of the total M. Attack)

The benefit of acumen SA is self evident for any class that uses magic skills. Casting fast for classes like nukers or healers is essential. Magic power though, can have its uses under certain circumstances which I will try to present.
Let’s take a look at offensive magic skills. Basically, they do 2 things:
1) Direct damage
and
2) Cause abnormal conditions (sleep, hold, paralyze, various debuffs).

The first case is affected much less from M. Attack than the second. That is because the Magical damage formula uses the square root of M. Attack. So an increase in M. Attack is not translated in a direct increase in M. Damage. For example, if one increase his M. Attack by 50%, the increase of damage on the same target would be 22% [SQR (1.5) =1.22].
The second case though is much different. Landing rate of magical skills that cause abnormal conditions is affected by the attacker’s direct M. Attack (not the square root). Increase of M. Attack results on a direct increase on the chances of a skill to land. Given the fact that these skills can change the course of a PvE or PvP, it becomes clear that for classes (e.g. buffers) that use these kind of skills a weapon with such SA can be useful (maybe as secondary weapon). In the game there are a number for resistances (passive, buffs, boss jewels). In order to overcome all these, you need all the M. Attack you can have.
Orc mages is another category that can benefit from these weapons, especially for landing skills like dreaming spirit and OL seals. Their low INT is greatly benefited by such an SA.
DE fighters are another good example. They have low INT but have several magical skills (hex, drain health, etc.). The landing rate of debuffs as well the HP gained can be increased with such a weapon SA (on a secondary weapon of course).
Lastly, I would like to add some nukers that can benefit from this SA. A good example is a SpS that solos without empower. At level 45 he would see his damage output increase more than the MP consumption does. But still if the MP consumption is a bit higher (e.g. MP consumption +15%, damage increase +13%) the increase itself might help to kill a mob in 2 shots instead of 3. In this case we have a huge MP efficiency, but it depends on mobs and presence or lack of buffs.

Low INT, lack of empower and use of magical skills is a good reason for a class to use a weapon with Magic Power SA.

[Lobomal]

Thank you, I have always wondered which SA to get for my SH, this helps alot

[Spudnik]

lets take this one step further there andreas;

youre now into your final levels 78-80. you are facing others of similar level, and it will be hard to take them down fast - given the crazy amounts of damage possible by many classes at that level.

should you take Acumen or MagicPower?

and why does EVERY end game nuker take acumen?

cause the faster you throw down skills, the higher chance your opponent will be interrupted, or die.

plain and simple, Acumen > all.

scale it down to low levels; give a healer a NG weapon, vs a B grade weapon. the % difference in amount healed is NEGLIGIBLE to say the least.

give a nuker acumen; set that nuker in 1xhp white mobs and watch him exp faster than the one in Magic power. why? still takes 2 shots to take down the mob, but 15% faster means 15% faster. 15% faster time to take down the mob, but NOT faster out of mana. indeed, Magic Power will make you OOM at the SAME time. 15% cost of spells vs 15% faster levelling speed...

theres a HUGE difference. anyone that ever played a nuker knows - 1dmg nukes that costed you MORE mana than listed on the skill and slow refresh time for the skill = dead or will soon be dead.

Magic Power = BAD. also useless.

FYI andreas, debuffs land best when applied with BSPS. you can root 9 a mob in your 60's as a bishop using NG +BSPS and no empower. it works. using Magic power to debuff will end up costing you money for an acumen weapon so you can throw a heal down in time.

[AndreasK]

Obviously you didn't understand my post.

Nukers and healers are better with acumen (only exception I pointed is possibly a low level SpS). I went through lengths to explain why. Did you miss it?

The Magic SA though can be useful for the rest of the classes I mention (Buffers, orc mages, fighters that use magic).
Do you disagree with that?

[ QUOTE ]
FYI andreas, debuffs land best when applied with BSPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say otherwise?

[ QUOTE ]
you can root 9 a mob in your 60's as a bishop using NG +BSPS and no empower. it works.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure bishops will be excelent rooters when they get the skill. :o
But apart from teases, use this weapon you speak of, to land the debuffs on players with passives, armor bonuses, mental shield buff, and epics and come to discuss this again.

[ QUOTE ]
using Magic power to debuff will end up costing you money for an acumen weapon so you can throw a heal down in time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you see me suggest it as a main weapon (ecxept maybe orc mages)? Have you reading problems? I didn't include healers. I said for buffers, orc mages, fighters and as secondary weapon. That means if you can afford it you can buy it.

Reading is your friend.

[Spudnik]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you didn't understand my post.

Nukers and healers are better with acumen (only exception I pointed is possibly a low level SpS). I went through lengths to explain why. Did you miss it?

The Magic SA though can be useful for the rest of the classes I mention (Buffers, orc mages, fighters that use magic).
Do you disagree with that?

[ QUOTE ]
FYI andreas, debuffs land best when applied with BSPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say otherwise?

[ QUOTE ]
you can root 9 a mob in your 60's as a bishop using NG +BSPS and no empower. it works.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure bishops will be excelent rooters when they get the skill. :o
But apart from teases, use this weapon you speak of, to land the debuffs on players with passives, armor bonuses, mental shield buff, and epics and come to discuss this again.

[ QUOTE ]
using Magic power to debuff will end up costing you money for an acumen weapon so you can throw a heal down in time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you see me suggest it as a main weapon (ecxept maybe orc mages)? Have you reading problems? I didn't include healers. I said for buffers, orc mages, fighters and as secondary weapon. That means if you can afford it you can buy it.

Reading is your friend.


[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i disagree with it. magic power is USELESS. on two counts: you went and showed how 50% more Matk means 22% damage increase, well Debuffs land >80% of the time when used with BSPS. without it, and just using Matk modifiers, you land around 40%. despite the pitiful damage boost from 13% Matk bonus (use Zubei to get that to 25% Matk bonus but then do the math. sqrt 25 = 5. 5% of 1000 damage is ... 50. wow big boost there) it costed you 15% more MP. remember: this means 15% of the 2nd cast cost - i.e. on a 50 mp nuke, the initial cast cost to start the spell is 4mp, the other 46 actually fire the spell. 15% on top of 46 MP is 53mp. lets lay down the numbers side by side for comparison:

1: 57 MP (thats 53+4) = 1050 damage when applied with the Magic Power SA + zubei robes.
2: 50 MP = 1000 damage when applied with the Acumen SA on an equivalent Matk weapon and No Zubei robes.

1: Damage per MP per second = 18.421 (given 1 second cast time)
2: Damage per MP per second = 23 (given 1.15 more casts per minute)

lets remove the acumen and find the numbers vs NO SA:
2: Damage per MP per second = 20.

Magic power is proven USELESS for SOLO nuking.

the only way i could find a use for it is with Clarity + Empower + Prophecy of Water + dances. id est: an end game pve mage group with full OOP support. but wheres this wonderful SA on S weapons i wonder? oh yeah. A grade weapons. Elemental Sword, and Flaming Dragon Skull. gee, thats bound to outdamage a player in a Clean Arcana mace. NOT.

OL seals have had boosts to their land rate but in PVP given the mental fortitude of many players it is widely accepted that seals wont land. hence the OL reduced to VOP + Cphealing only.

i dont read anywhere in your post about using magicpower as a secondary weapon. from the tone of the original post it was clear to me you were trying to sell Magic Power SA ideology to people who would otherwise just use acumen.

much of the post was specified as PVE considerations - and i gave my standpoint - that NO SA is needed for a healer doing Crowd Control in PVE let alone one as insidiously prohibitive and costly as Magic Power. if you wanted to talk about landing debuffs in pvp at high levels fine, show me a character that uses Magic Power in S grade vs S grade PVP opponents, successfully debuffing and it'll be the only one ever. debuffing is much easier when applied to Vortex skills - its built into the skill. pvp debuffing is a) inconsequential b) inefficient and i am sure a lot of other things.

why debuff targets when you could be Damage dealing or healing ? PVP lasts 5 seconds at those levels, and debuffed targets can still CPSpam. you dont kill any faster vs debuffed opponents. you dont die any faster when debuffed either, if you know what youre doing and your team is functioning as intended.

the only and i do mean ONLY exception is Curse of Doom. thats the bane of everything but dwarfs.

in conclusion i find your ACCEPTANCE of Magic Power as useful to be HIGHLY disturbing.

[AndreasK]

I am amased by the lack of understanding you show. I came to believe that you probably do it on purpose. No other explanation...

Your last post at most of its part tries to prove that acumen is better for mages and healers. I guess this is completely different from what I say here:

[ QUOTE ]
The benefit of acumen SA is self evident for any class that uses magic skills. Casting fast for classes like nukers or healers is essential.

[/ QUOTE ]

and here:

[ QUOTE ]
Nukers and healers are better with acumen

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations. Completely failed your reading skills.

[ QUOTE ]
much of the post was specified as PVE considerations - and i gave my standpoint - that NO SA is needed for a healer doing Crowd Control in PVE

[/ QUOTE ]

My post was not PvE or PvP oriented. I assume someone would like to taste both aspects of the game. If you posted only on PvE aspect that's not my problem.

[ QUOTE ]
well Debuffs land >80% of the time when used with BSPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Try sleeping as an orc mage an oponent with NM and mental shield and epics and Wisdom passive. Then we can have this conversation again.

[ QUOTE ]
i dont read anywhere in your post about using magicpower as a secondary weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about here?
[ QUOTE ]
with such a weapon SA (on a secondary weapon of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading failed again.

[ QUOTE ]
from the tone of the original post it was clear to me you were trying to sell Magic Power SA ideology to people who would otherwise just use acumen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideology? I just try to show the uses of a certain SA, not promote a religion.

[ QUOTE ]
why debuff targets when you could be Damage dealing or healing

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean as a buffer? If a healer is present, then any buffer present should try to root, sleep, fear, etc. Not damage deal. But I forgot. You still speak about the mages. THAT ARE BETTER WITH ACUMEN in case you still didn't get we agree.

Try hard to concentrate now. Maybe you can understand it. Magic power SA is good SA for low INT classes (orc mages, Figthers) that use magic skills. Buffers (although high INT class) can also use it (after buffing) when they try to use their disabilitating skills against resisistive targets.
The fact that casting is slower but with more chances to land on the first try (but also increased MP) is a thing to consider and weight. Each one can make his own decision.

[Spudnik]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Try sleeping as an orc mage an oponent with NM and mental shield and epics and Wisdom passive. Then we can have this conversation again.

[/ QUOTE ]

why in the name of baium would you be trying to sleep someone in this day and age? especially as an orc mage.

you dont bring a knife to a gunfight man, orcs should never be used for sleeping. let alone a target such as the one you describe. epic fail.

1: yes, i read that you acknowlege Acumen as a better SA for healers and nukers. twice. at those exact places. however you do not explain WHY. rather, you continued on trying to give a use for Magic Power. fishing for a use. there isnt one.

none at all

even on low int, or fighter classes.

none.

lets put it this way, 15% more costly drains on a tank means 15% less mana to use for Hate. its already been proven for nukers how this SA eats the mana up at too fast of a rate to justify the damage output for an unbuffed Nuker in Zubei.

a Tank (having significantly LESS ManaPool than a nuker) does not have NEARLY the Matk of a nuker, and does FAR FAR less damage in drains. the differential percentile is INCREDIBLY small. a 400 damage drain returns ~100HP to a tank. an Orc mage drain that would return 300+ HP. the difference in returned HP on a tank is literally NOTHING of any significant cumulative effect with BSPS (with BSPS the %HP returned is not doubled but the damage done to target IS), but a faster drain on the MP. especially one sans-empower.

drains are used by tanks NOT for the purposes of primarily restoring HP (the % returned is too low to be worth casting for it usually) but for dealing some significant initial damage so the tanks can actually kill things swinging swords.

buffing the tank for max Matk means giving the tank Zerk + Prophecy of Water. unwise. especially for a group that needs a solid tank. extra-especially when the Tank can benefit more from other end-game buffs IN end game PVP.

give that tank an acumen weapon and that tank can PVE like a madman. it aint focus, but its fast killing.

2: all buffers are also either DD's or Healers. no exceptions. IF (and only if) you have a skill of some similitude to Fear or Curse of Doom should you be trying to debuff. Sleep+root+para have all got resists like mad.

otherwise, CPheal or Heal. hell, pull out your bow and assist. or lay down some Drains. dont try to do something you just cant do. no SA in the world will help you.

youre trying to say some specific classes CAN use magic Power and not be gimp. i am trying to show different.

this SA is easily overlookable on every weapon on which it is available. ive given you the numbers to demonstrate its use.

given the calculation of Magic damage, one can easily show that 15% more mana cost for FIXED matk boost is already too high a price to pay. this SA would be USEFUL WHEN you get a 33% MATK boost. nothing short of that.

[Aspecti]

Spud, please just shut the hell up :) FAIL.

[_Charmille_]

[ QUOTE ]
why in the name of baium would you be trying to sleep someone in this day and age? especially as an orc mage.

you dont bring a knife to a gunfight man, orcs should never be used for sleeping. let alone a target such as the one you describe. epic fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Epic fail on your part. Stick to RP and PVE Spud, you got no clue about PVP.

[AndreasK]

[ QUOTE ]
why in the name of baium would you be trying to sleep someone in this day and age? especially as an orc mage.

you dont bring a knife to a gunfight man, orcs should never be used for sleeping. let alone a target such as the one you describe.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what should they be doing according to you? Melee opponents to death? Don’t you think that disabling an enemy for 10-20 seconds worth the effort? You said that fights last for 5 sec at high levels (LOL)

[ QUOTE ]
1: yes, i read that you acknowlege Acumen as a better SA for healers and nukers. twice. at those exact places. however you do not explain WHY. rather, you continued on trying to give a use for Magic Power. fishing for a use. there isnt one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because as I said: Although it is not suited for nukers and healers, it can be used by buffers, orc mages and magic using fighters.

[ QUOTE ]
lets put it this way, 15% more costly drains on a tank means 15% less mana to use for Hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

A tank doesn’t spam magical skills like a nuker does. He uses them on certain occasions. Ask any DE if he prefers to use 15% more MP for a 50% increase on hex’s landing chances.

[ QUOTE ]
its already been proven for nukers how this SA eats the mana up at too fast of a rate to justify the damage output for an unbuffed Nuker in Zubei.

a Tank (having significantly LESS ManaPool than a nuker) does not have NEARLY the Matk of a nuker, and does FAR FAR less damage in drains. the differential percentile is INCREDIBLY small. a 400 damage drain returns ~100HP to a tank. an Orc mage drain that would return 300+ HP. the difference in returned HP on a tank is literally NOTHING of any significant cumulative effect with BSPS (with BSPS the %HP returned is not doubled but the damage done to target IS), but a faster drain on the MP. especially one sans-empower.

drains are used by tanks NOT for the purposes of primarily restoring HP (the % returned is too low to be worth casting for it usually) but for dealing some significant initial damage so the tanks can actually kill things swinging swords.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I made it clear in my OP, you still fail to understand that the great benefit from this SA is to land debuff and crowd control skills than doing damage. Take a 74 level SK (same goes for BD, DA). With a +3 DLE, he has 253 Matk. If in order to use a skill, he switches to a +3 FDS with Magic power SA he gets 498 Matk (FDS is expensive though for sec. weapon. An elemental might be a cheaper solution). That is 96% difference in Matk and 40% in M. damage. And that comes at the expense of using 5.7 MP more (top level Drain Health). But even if that is not enough, the huge increase on hex, power break landing chances may be.

[ QUOTE ]
buffing the tank for max Matk means giving the tank Zerk + Prophecy of Water. unwise. especially for a group that needs a solid tank. extra-especially when the Tank can benefit more from other end-game buffs IN end game PVP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say buff a tank to be a nuker? You are making things up.

[ QUOTE ]
give that tank an acumen weapon and that tank can PVE like a madman. it aint focus, but its fast killing.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a tank buys an FDS as a secondary weapon, why put an MP SA instead of ACC? Well, simple. The +3 FDS with MP gives to the SK 50% more Matk than the one without it.

[ QUOTE ]
2: all buffers are also either DD's or Healers. no exceptions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not very effective on either, specially for PvP (EE heals are an exception)

[ QUOTE ]
IF (and only if) you have a skill of some similitude to Fear or Curse of Doom should you be trying to debuff. Sleep+root+para have all got resists like mad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way to overcome resistances is with high Matk. Any other suggestions?

[ QUOTE ]
otherwise, CPheal or Heal. hell, pull out your bow and assist. or lay down some Drains. dont try to do something you just cant do. no SA in the world will help you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Let me get this straight. You tell me: don’t use the debuffs that is your class skill, but take a bow, go to 600 range with -8 accuracy and low strength and assist. Right. The use of bow takes a buffer to close to the front lines. They need light or heavy to survive and then we go to MP pool and casting speed issues. Drains cost too much mana but can do descent damage. Problem is that after buffing a party, an Orc mage has his MP pool down 40-60% (depends on other buffers available). There is not much mana left for drains. Especially, if we are talking for an OL, then he’d better stay back and keep all his pool for CP heals.

[ QUOTE ]
youre trying to say some specific classes CAN use magic Power and not be gimp. i am trying to show different.

this SA is easily overlookable on every weapon on which it is available. ive given you the numbers to demonstrate its use.

[/ QUOTE ]
I did the same. I used numbers to show that it can be useful under some conditions. The readers of this thread can decide themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
given the calculation of Magic damage, one can easily show that 15% more mana cost for FIXED matk boost is already too high a price to pay. this SA would be USEFUL WHEN you get a 33% MATK boost. nothing short of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep whistling the same tune of M. Damage when I said its main use is to increase the landing chances of skills. By the way, I proved that it gives 50% Matk boost to a SK. You said at least 33%, so I guess you agree on it.

[Gokuryuuha]

Thanks for the great posts and insights, AndreasK. Despite playing for a long time I never got into this game until I started a SH and this answers some of my questions. The insights help a lot!

[KnightOfDarkness]

I started agreeing with Spud till he killed his arguement with stupid remarks that made no sense and thus further proved his lack of knowledge... *sigh* :(

[Spudnik]

you people just dont listen.

i am not gonna even try anymore, to hell with it.

[KnightOfDarkness]

Well usually you have a point then you follow up with a point breaker killing the entire message and getting people to flame you maybe you should keep it short simple to the point and don't follow up with your "point breakers" just some helpfu advice :)

[Bunjubanton]

[ QUOTE ]
I made this in thread the form of a guide because there are a number of people who wonder what is the use of Magic Power SA. I have used both extensively, so I will try to write my view on this subject.

First I want to begin a brief description of both.
[u]Acumen[u]: is a pretty much straightforward SA. It simply increases your casting speed by 15%, independently from any other bonuses. That means that you can use your magic skills faster (affects both casting speed and skill reuse timer).
[u]Magic power [u]: is a more subtle SA. It increases M. Attack by a fixed amount (amount increases by weapon grade) but then your magical skills cost 15% more MP. Furthermore, this increase is not affected by any buffs (e.g. Empower). But it is affected by the use of spirit shots (since it is part of the total M. Attack)

The benefit of acumen SA is self evident for any class that uses magic skills. Casting fast for classes like nukers or healers is essential. Magic power though, can have its uses under certain circumstances which I will try to present.
Let’s take a look at offensive magic skills. Basically, they do 2 things:
1) Direct damage
and
2) Cause abnormal conditions (sleep, hold, paralyze, various debuffs).

The first case is affected much less from M. Attack than the second. That is because the Magical damage formula uses the square root of M. Attack. So an increase in M. Attack is not translated in a direct increase in M. Damage. For example, if one increase his M. Attack by 50%, the increase of damage on the same target would be 22% [SQR (1.5) =1.22].
The second case though is much different. Landing rate of magical skills that cause abnormal conditions is affected by the attacker’s direct M. Attack (not the square root). Increase of M. Attack results on a direct increase on the chances of a skill to land. Given the fact that these skills can change the course of a PvE or PvP, it becomes clear that for classes (e.g. buffers) that use these kind of skills a weapon with such SA can be useful (maybe as secondary weapon). In the game there are a number for resistances (passive, buffs, boss jewels). In order to overcome all these, you need all the M. Attack you can have.
Orc mages is another category that can benefit from these weapons, especially for landing skills like dreaming spirit and OL seals. Their low INT is greatly benefited by such an SA.
DE fighters are another good example. They have low INT but have several magical skills (hex, drain health, etc.). The landing rate of debuffs as well the HP gained can be increased with such a weapon SA (on a secondary weapon of course).
Lastly, I would like to add some nukers that can benefit from this SA. A good example is a SpS that solos without empower. At level 45 he would see his damage output increase more than the MP consumption does. But still if the MP consumption is a bit higher (e.g. MP consumption +15%, damage increase +13%) the increase itself might help to kill a mob in 2 shots instead of 3. In this case we have a huge MP efficiency, but it depends on mobs and presence or lack of buffs.

Low INT, lack of empower and use of magical skills is a good reason for a class to use a weapon with Magic Power SA.

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao why don't you just write magic empower gives 100 matack bonus lol

[Aspecti]

Because it doesn't?

[KnightOfDarkness]

would be better if it were um... +15((((((%))))))) magic damage

[wolfheart]

I find Magic Power SA very useful on SH. It's enjoyable watching them cast slowly and die from the mob, just because they can't cast second time fast enough. That'd be the only use of this SA.

[Goddess]

I find Magic Power SA very useful on my SH (maybe not your). lvl 54 with +9 humo and demon robe +5int and se buffer sure I can find mob where I can 2 nuke for 10k xp, but there also better spot where I there is mob that has like 100-150 hp left after two nuke that give 15k xp. Instead of waisting another nuke or melee the mob with 3-5 hit and risk getting stun/damage, this is the place where Magic SA come handy. I trade my +9 acumen homu for a +9 SoWD with Magic Power SA, the added small amount of mtack allow me to kill the 15k xp mob with 2 nuke instead. Sure I cast slow but with greater magic hast potion my SH can afford to nuke 3 time before the mob get to me. so in my case maybe not your Magic Power SA work for me.. and since it easy to trade from humo to SoWD and cheap to change the SA it the best of both world.

[KnightOfDarkness]

[ QUOTE ]
I find Magic Power SA very useful on SH. It's enjoyable watching them cast slowly and die from the mob, just because they can't cast second time fast enough. That'd be the only use of this SA.

[/ QUOTE ]

that mob must be a RB with 500,000pattack and 50,000 run speed

[Shermal]

Just here to throw in my 2 cent.

I am a Spellhowler lvl 74 on Bartz and i am useing the Magic Power SA on my weapons since B grade.

All my armor and weapon equipment is set for MAX damage. Means Zubei in B and NM in A grade + a weapon with Magic Power.

I allways hunt solo without pots nor buffs (just the three i have of my own) and i ussually dont get hit by a 1x HP mob wolfheart. With a +4 WIT even a SH cast fast enough to kill before mobs get a chance to hit them.

Also playing a SH i can hunt without rest even with the 15% higher mana use. Vampiric claws, Corps life drain and Body to mind.

I don't have any experience with a Acumen weapon since for me its a weapon manly needed in PvP and then only in a 1v1.
Nukers tend to get wasted very fast in a mass PvP so i would think its better to land 1 or maybe 2 DoTs or silence spells with Magic power then casting 3 spells that have a lower chance to make a diffrent.

But thats only my thought about PvP. I am mainly a PvE so don't rip my head off if i am wrong with that ;)

Last something to KnightOfDarkness:
There is a SA that gives a fixed % rate to M.Atk without takeing more mana. Its called Empower (no not the buff but a real SA). I belive it just gives 5% or something like that.

[Aspecti]

Empower SA doesn't give a fixed % amount, it gives a fixed value, like +24 m.atk == absolutely useless.

You won't be casting any DoTs or silence in PvP with NM robes and no acumen SA, you're going to be dead before your cast animation finishes, or you die irl from boredom. And wtf.. DoTs?

For SH, magic power SA is useless if you're hunting 1x hp mobs since you SHOULD be 2 shotting them even with acumen SA weapon, or oneshotting with CDL.

[PainAmplifier]

I wouldn't say the Empower SA is completely useless. I had it for awhile on an OL. And the increase in landing/damage was very noticable. It was minor, but very noticable.

And Magic Power was a No-No from the very beginning...OL MP costs are stupidly high to begin with...the extra MP use with Magic Power would have been suicidal.

I went from the SoWD:Empower to a MotU:Mana Up. The downside being that the lack of crits and lower matk was a poor trade for the extra accuracy to my mind. The upside being that I only used it for a short time before hitting B grade. (Hellknife:Mental Shield) The upside, my two dwarfs got to use the MotU, and they LOVE having the Mana Up on that. (Even with the lower patk it comes with.)

I found the main problem with Mana Up on a 'mage' class, is that the amount of MP it gives appears to be based off your 'natural' MP pool, and does not take any other MP increasing into consideration. (Such as robes or unsealed jewelry) So as you get better gear, the increase in MP doesn't scale as well, nor do you really get as much MP as you might think looking at your 'normal' MP.

[KnightOfDarkness]

haha Magic Power hahahahaha

[Trensharo]

The fact that this thread is still going shows how hard some people try just to be rediculous.