Did Subs lose their purpose

[ChikariShu]

Frankly said

Sub classes in the past evolved at same rate as main class
it was fun to be able to switch whenever u needed or liked to...

It was funny to see some mages in heavey armor and
some warriors in mages sets

This Charm is dying out because of the levle cap limit of 80 on subs
while mains can go on till 85 and prolly higher

This makes me feel like i lost my time on my sub
certainly if some quests are 82 and u cant take them on sub
and u have to change to u'r main to get it

In the past a sub class was needed to become noblesse
now u can be noble just by territory wars...

I know NC soft tryed to fix this issue a little by just simply
allowing us to split one subclass from a main class


But then u lose all the charm

no more dwarves spinning arround to buff or heal
No more ultra cute warrior human mage females
no more funny male dwarves shooting arrows


this was charming and great
u had to geuss wich class somoene was on
it gave spice and surprises

what i would like to see is the cap of sub or main class eaqualized
raise cap level for subs to 85 please

[Rohirrim]

I see you are lvl 80 on main and 80 on sub so I guess you are suggesting this only because you can't to sub2main.

[ChikariShu]

Not really
i can seperate my sub from my main
but the i would lose my cute dwarven healer.
and become a boring "not one of a kind" healer like anny of them


being unique, or being a lil more unique
its needed in this game

Its like taking a lollipop away from a cute lil girl

[stupidity]

its stil the same.. just means u wont play in the 80-85 areas... also just means u gotta sub again..... i have 28 chars... i cant wait till i get my male dorf spell hunter...:)

[Skinfaxy]

Not really
i can seperate my sub from my main
but the i would lose my cute dwarven healer.
and become a boring "not one of a kind" healer like anny of them


being unique, or being a lil more unique
its needed in this game

Its like taking a lollipop away from a cute lil girl

I am not a boring healer :(

[Eamonn]

With a party there's nothing stopping him from playing in the 80-85 area's as a healer. To answer the question about sub's losing purpose. They just lost uniqueness since all of you 76+ have subs they've gotten dull and boring.

If your not gonna bother with Oly then what's the purpose getting a sub? Your more unique now if you don't sub and go straight to 85.

[Belophan]

why have a lmit there anyway?
there is NO reason at all to have one

remove limit = more money for NCsoft cause once i get 80 i cant do anything else sp i might aswell just quit then..

[Rohirrim]

why have a lmit there anyway?
there is NO reason at all to have one

remove limit = more money for NCsoft cause once i get 80 i cant do anything else sp i might aswell just quit then..


it's less oney for NCSoft because less people will do sub2main service or the new split character service :p

[ChikariShu]

With a party there's nothing stopping him from playing in the 80-85 area's as a healer. To answer the question about sub's losing purpose. They just lost uniqueness since all of you 76+ have subs they've gotten dull and boring.

If your not gonna bother with Oly then what's the purpose getting a sub? Your more unique now if you don't sub and go straight to 85.

uhm i want mains AND subs to 85
why stop at main only ?

[ChikariShu]

it's less oney for NCSoft because less people will do sub2main service or the new split character service :p


wel lactually manny people want to keep their unique looks
and prefer being a dwarven cardinal or a fighter spellsinger
just cuz it looks greater

just pull up the levle of subs at next chronicle
will have made enough monney on people that cant wait then
there's not a zillion people that want to seperate sub from main
i'd only see some who where already 80 + on main before the
service arrived so they could not switch sub from main
or people that want to level on vitality
or warsmiths and overlords who could not do sub to main

so that service wont be usefull for a large crowd
while pushing a level cap limit will make thousands happy

[AshleyHunter]

Your Sub is set up to add bonuses 2 your main. That's why it's called a sub and not your main. the Last skill you get for your main is at 80 and really you can stop at 75 because the 80 skill is no big deal. so really what is the point going past 80 or even 75 on your sub?

If you like it more then your main then it's time 2 change your sub 2 your main then and just let that main go. Now the ones that can't like WS and OL your pretty much stuck or have 2 reroll.

[ChikariShu]

With a party there's nothing stopping him from playing in the 80-85 area's as a healer. To answer the question about sub's losing purpose. They just lost uniqueness since all of you 76+ have subs they've gotten dull and boring.

If your not gonna bother with Oly then what's the purpose getting a sub? Your more unique now if you don't sub and go straight to 85.

For now...

next chronicle prolly be main lvl cap raise like it was announced in
the intervieuw on korean sites
meaning lvl 90 max level, so mobs will have levle 100-120
i wanna see u kill a lvl 120 monster with a lvl 80 sps, hello the fails
and no one will party you cuz u will doo too few dammage

and in pvp its even worse, goodbye dammage on a lvl 90 from a lvl 80 sub class

just push the sub level to be same as main level
much more fun that way
Let us chose who WE want to play and not Force us to play mains
if we want to play subs.

[Rohirrim]

wel lactually manny people want to keep their unique looks
and prefer being a dwarven cardinal or a fighter spellsinger
just cuz it looks greater


that makes 2 of us. I'm Maestro on main and EE/Destro as sub

[Belophan]

sub didnt give anything to start with, just a timezink

then we got noblesse thru subs

then we got the skills to main thingy

there is no reason whatsoever to keep a limit on subs
u cant use it in olympiad
no limit = more ppl p(l)aying

[ChikariShu]

Your Sub is set up to add bonuses 2 your main. That's why it's called a sub and not your main. the Last skill you get for your main is at 80 and really you can stop at 75 because the 80 skill is no big deal. so really what is the point going past 80 or even 75 on your sub?

If you like it more then your main then it's time 2 change your sub 2 your main then and just let that main go. Now the ones that can't like WS and OL your pretty much stuck or have 2 reroll.

Actually i'm of the kind i want a full toon
not a half one
main 85 , then why not subs 85 ?
if i ditn like My WS , it wouldnt be 80 tbh
golem + 15 rocks

[ChikariShu]

sub didnt give anything to start with, just a timezink

then we got noblesse thru subs

then we got the skills to main thingy

there is no reason whatsoever to keep a limit on subs
u cant use it in olympiad
no limit = more ppl p(l)aying

Exactly, no real bonus from those skills from sub to main
hardly can notice u have annything at all
augments give better stuff then those skills
and the 80 , well, 30 mins and its over, not quite worth using

[SirCrash]

Actually the sub skills you can get from 75 level subs are really useful.. Passive crit is a nice skill to get.. And for AoE chance haste is amazing and seeing as your main is a maestro you can get chance haste and go aoe :)

Edit: I would agree that there is no point in going past level 75 on sub. Unless you wanna just be unique.
Also subs should be allowed to go past level 80 although I would never attempt to get my subs past 80 anyways.

[ChikariShu]

Actually the sub skills you can get from 75 level subs are really useful.. Passive crit is a nice skill to get.. And for AoE chance haste is amazing and seeing as your main is a maestro you can get chance haste and go aoe :)

Edit: I would agree that there is no point in going past level 75 on sub. Unless you wanna just be unique.
Also subs should be allowed to go past level 80 although I would never attempt to get my subs past 80 anyways.

U see nwich subs i have ?
best things i got was passive elemental protection and passive benediction buffs

Main or sub getting high levle is the goal
and we should be FREE to decide wich we level
being cute and unique or funny
is a hard thing to do on a main
and the geussing of , wich class is he /she on actually ?
that's gone too
if u only can do that till 80
its a waste, needs be extended

[SirCrash]

U see nwich subs i have ?
best things i got was passive elemental protection and passive benediction buffs

Main or sub getting high levle is the goal
and we should be FREE to decide wich we level
being cute and unique or funny
is a hard thing to do on a main
and the geussing of , wich class is he /she on actually ?
that's gone too
if u only can do that till 80
its a waste, needs be extended

Yes I totally agree with you.
And I didn't really think about the subs you selected so basically you didn't help your main out at all, but sub skills like chance haste, passive crit, and chance counter celestial are very usefull sub skills especially for duelests, tyrants and anyone that AoE's

Offtopic: Is it just me that thinks nukers have really bad choices for sub skills? lol

[gatompalo]

Elements,dynasty made expensive to have good gear on main and sub at the same time.

Ofcourse there are exceptions,like kamaels.

[Aisen]

Your Sub is set up to add bonuses 2 your main. That's why it's called a sub and not your main. the Last skill you get for your main is at 80 and really you can stop at 75 because the 80 skill is no big deal. so really what is the point going past 80 or even 75 on your sub?

If you like it more then your main then it's time 2 change your sub 2 your main then and just let that main go. Now the ones that can't like WS and OL your pretty much stuck or have 2 reroll.

I guess certain parts of the OP's point must just go over all of you heads. Either that, or you just don't bother to read the post.

The OP said that he/she wanted to keep the unique sub/race. Believe it or not, that's really important to a lot of people (myself included). It would completely ruin the "magic" to have to play the exact same race/class combination that almost everyone else does, especially after becoming attached to your own special combination. What is so hard to understand about that?

That being said, not everyone subs specifically to gain certain abilities for their main. I've rolled a particular race/class for the sole purpose of subbing them with a unique race/class combination that I really like, as a matter a fact.

If they'd allow you to stay as the same unique race/class when you sub2main, I'd be all for it - until then, I'll just consider it another useless addition.

[ChikariShu]

Elements,dynasty made expensive to have good gear on main and sub at the same time.

Ofcourse there are exceptions,like kamaels.

I personallything that crafting S80 is now much easier then crafting S gears
Elemental stones have quite good drop rate now
so those factors should not stop from gearing up a char
besides, my chars are 80, but still wearing majestic cuz of their bonusses
icould make S80 quite easy, prefer majestic still

[Yue]

Subs are extremely important in any serious clan as you need to be versatile to quickly make good parties. Not being able to take subs to 85 is really bad in high level clans

[Rohirrim]

Actually the sub skills you can get from 75 level subs are really useful.. Passive crit is a nice skill to get.. And for AoE chance haste is amazing and seeing as your main is a maestro you can get chance haste and go aoe :)

Edit: I would agree that there is no point in going past level 75 on sub. Unless you wanna just be unique.
Also subs should be allowed to go past level 80 although I would never attempt to get my subs past 80 anyways.

little offtopic:

didn't they nerf/change the chance haste from sub?

[SirCrash]

little offtopic:

didn't they nerf/change the chance haste from sub?


Im not sure if they did.. But I do know that AoE'ing it stays up nearly the whole time and it also can make the difference between being able to pole a spot and not being able to pole a spot..

[Rohirrim]

Im not sure if they did.. But I do know that AoE'ing it stays up nearly the whole time and it also can make the difference between being able to pole a spot and not being able to pole a spot..


I have been holding back my warrior sub because of the rumors of it being nerfed, but now it seems like I should start to lvl it again.

[atarth]

With the new hunting areas there has to be a raise on subs lvl.

You have to be able to switch main/sub to form a party not only if you belong in a big clan but also for a friends'xp group.

Nukers can only be part of new areas with good quests(like gc stakato)with their subs and 80lvl is ''low'' to grind well into these areas.

So why to make subs if we cant use them for playing?if only for skills seems stupid to me,you'r supposed to learn a different profession meaning you'r gonna make something with it.

[Nanashi_Naomhan]

chance haste is more or less as overpowered as it always was

[ChikariShu]

Subs are extremely important in any serious clan as you need to be versatile to quickly make good parties. Not being able to take subs to 85 is really bad in high level clans


That's a major point too for me
being able to switch on the class needed
and cretainly from some classes u NEED those 81 + skills
like from EE eve'as blessing
or from cardinal the self sacrifice
paladin the phoenix
dagger dual dagger mastery
for sorceress the vulcano and meteor rain

u levle a sub to 80 to be flexible too
and now, for all classes that are DD especially those
if a cap raise happens, their subs are DEAD
no one's gonna take lower levels who dont do dammage
cuz they miss over 5 levels

and then, .. yes u'r stuck on a main class

games is supposed to be 1 main 3 subs
all equal levels

[Skinfaxy]

I think its a great idea to be able to level your subclass as much as your main. Main would still be main because its the only class you can learn skills from all the other subs. I have friends they are stuck playing their sub all the time because we need that class, they are 80 and 100% and for them all the leveling we do brings no satisfaction + they dont want to change their main class. So please consider this.

[Skinfaxy]

That's a major point too for me
being able to switch on the class needed
and cretainly from some classes u NEED those 81 + skills
like from EE eve'as blessing
or from cardinal the self sacrifice
paladin the phoenix
dagger dual dagger mastery
for sorceress the vulcano and meteor rain

u levle a sub to 80 to be flexible too
and now, for all classes that are DD especially those
if a cap raise happens, their subs are DEAD
no one's gonna take lower levels who dont do dammage
cuz they miss over 5 levels

and then, .. yes u'r stuck on a main class

games is supposed to be 1 main 3 subs
all equal levels

I totally agree.

[Pirotesa]

games is supposed to be 1 main 3 subs
all equal levels

Game is ALSO supposed to have LIVE played support classes as MAINS. Excuse me if I don't weep for your sub dilemma.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/nemo_mz23/L2/violin123.jpg

For well established players, which is most of the current playerbase, it's no big deal to get to lvl 40. Subs were never meant to be as mains and so with all the new and easy lvling NC Soft has given you, you have no reason to go on about this issue. Take the 2-3 days to get to 40 and pretend that is your BETTER sub, because it actually is.

[Skinfaxy]

So, Pirotesa, everyone should make another 2-3 characters support and turn them into some kind of main ? Cause, whatever this game was supposed to be in the start, the game population is too low to really find the support classes you need to play it.
So in a dream L2 world where the game population is way higher you theory would be correct, here it doesn't hold water. You need the best results with the people you got, cause you wont see any other higher levels soon as fewer and fewer people start to play Lineage.

[KnightOfDarkness]

So, Pirotesa, everyone should make another 2-3 characters support and turn them into some kind of main ? Cause, whatever this game was supposed to be in the start, the game population is too low to really find the support classes you need to play it.
So in a dream L2 world where the game population is way higher you theory would be correct, here it doesn't hold water. You need the best results with the people you got, cause you wont see any other higher levels soon as fewer and fewer people start to play Lineage.

I don't listen to Pirotesa after the years of the continous boxers=botters rant

[ChikariShu]

Game is ALSO supposed to have LIVE played support classes as MAINS. Excuse me if I don't weep for your sub dilemma.



For well established players, which is most of the current playerbase, it's no big deal to get to lvl 40. Subs were never meant to be as mains and so with all the new and easy lvling NC Soft has given you, you have no reason to go on about this issue. Take the 2-3 days to get to 40 and pretend that is your BETTER sub, because it actually is.

Dear Pirotesa
i do understand that u dont like my char obviously
but i LOVE it:p

and the point is :
Originality
Magic
spiceyness


not being plain

in a game if u start , u dont change the rules half way

wich happend lots here, adjusting levels of sub equal to main
gives so much more then just a higer level sub

it gives flexibility onesellf AND for u'r clan

and sorry but

a lvl 83 Maestro is far from being nothing
been seen in oly plenty times;)

[Nuku]

little offtopic:

didn't they nerf/change the chance haste from sub?

no nerf/change noticable, seems you're safe :)

[Yue]

Game is ALSO supposed to have LIVE played support classes as MAINS. Excuse me if I don't weep for your sub dilemma.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/nemo_mz23/L2/violin123.jpg

For well established players, which is most of the current playerbase, it's no big deal to get to lvl 40. Subs were never meant to be as mains and so with all the new and easy lvling NC Soft has given you, you have no reason to go on about this issue. Take the 2-3 days to get to 40 and pretend that is your BETTER sub, because it actually is.
Unless you plan on tagging up all your boxes (which is a horrible idea) you really can't just use a box instead of your main in a lot of situations - at least not efficiently. One example are clan passives, another one are % losses during pvp and sieges. On top of that people will always want to play their main toon, be it on main or subclass, rather then their box.

I can see your point in having a problem with boxing (don't necessarily agree with it though), but why do you have a problem with people subbing support oO? Quite a few of the support mains we have in our clan used to be DD mains and switched because they enjoyed the support class more (be it 'at least I always get parties on my sws' or 'I just find the WC more fun'). And most of our support people have other support subs anyway. (In fact, I doubt that there are more then a handfull of people in the clan that don't have support subs and use them if needed).
Of course that doesn't stop us from partying/leveling/ect live main support people, that wouldn't make sense on any level. If the entire clan is versatile enough to either use support or DD, the only thing that's limiting the number of good groups you can put up is the number of clan-members.

[Eamonn]

uhm i want mains AND subs to 85
why stop at main only ?

Why not let you stay on your main and learn skills of another class? Like what they decided with the healer classes.

For example be an Overlord main with Warlord or Destroyer pole skills and not be subbed. Make that something that qualifies you for Noblesse and involves a quest to learn skills of another class, instead of changing your race stats like the current system.

[Eamonn]

For now...

next chronicle prolly be main lvl cap raise like it was announced in
the intervieuw on korean sites
meaning lvl 90 max level, so mobs will have levle 100-120
i wanna see u kill a lvl 120 monster with a lvl 80 sps, hello the fails
and no one will party you cuz u will doo too few dammage

and in pvp its even worse, goodbye dammage on a lvl 90 from a lvl 80 sub class

just push the sub level to be same as main level
much more fun that way
Let us chose who WE want to play and not Force us to play mains
if we want to play subs.

LOL Hello McFly I'm in the best clan on Phoenix with my Overlord and I'll always get a party. But i see your point about trying to solo a lvl 200 mob with a lvl 80 sub becuase you hate your main and don't want to lvl a toon from scratch in the class you like of your subs.

Doing the sub to main crap, you essentially get a reroll ,becuase it changes your race to that of the class your changing to your main. Either way your screwed if you want Orc Overlord buffs and seals with pole skills. That woulda been the way to do it for nobless, instead of looking like an orc mage but having the race stats of something else.

The uniqueness part i do agree with you on and is only reason to bother subbing in the 1st place. So yea they should just let everything go to same lvl.

[Rohirrim]

Why not let you stay on your main and learn skills of another class? Like what they decided with the healer classes.

For example be an Overlord main with Warlord or Destroyer pole skills and not be subbed. Make that something that qualifies you for Noblesse and involves a quest to learn skills of another class, instead of changing your race stats like the current system.


that's a big no thanks

[Eamonn]

that's a big no thanks

Of course by doing that it actually fixes your accuracy as a poler or archer, becuase your learning all the masteries. Same exact thing is already happening with healers learning other healers skills.

Bishops with party recall for example ,is pretty much the same type of thing i'm suggesting. Make it a nobless quest and throw out the subclass system where you change your race stats to be say a DE AW in a Orc OL body. Which is stupid that your changing your race as well as your class.

[ChikariShu]

Of course by doing that it actually fixes your accuracy as a poler or archer, becuase your learning all the masteries. Same exact thing is already happening with healers learning other healers skills.

Bishops with party recall for example ,is pretty much the same type of thing i'm suggesting. Make it a nobless quest and throw out the subclass system where you change your race stats to be say a DE AW in a Orc OL body. Which is stupid that your changing your race as well as your class.

Naw, that was exactly the cute thing that needs to be held
a human male spellsinger looks awsome
or a orc warrior buffer or healer

so awsome to see
no way dotn take that away

[mswari]

I Agree with this...
My sub 4% away from 79... I am going to hit lvl 80 on it sooner or later, I want to be able to continue to play it, but I am going to be screwed in the higher level areas. I have absolutely no desire to split it or sub2main. The sub cap needs to be raised to level 85..... I was also thinking of doing a 2nd sub as an archer type class, but then I said to myself what is the point, I'll still never be able to fight vs the lvl 85s, cause I'll be stuck at lvl 80.

Thus I really should only level my main, which I love to play, but my bd is needed much more often...

[bel]

sub at lvl 80 is really good. You don't have to be worried about white mobs to become green ones. This is actually really good. And as Ashley mentioned, Main is Main, and subs don't have to be as high as main.

[Eamonn]

Naw, that was exactly the cute thing that needs to be held
a human male spellsinger looks awsome
or a orc warrior buffer or healer

so awsome to see
no way dotn take that away

I'm trying to say don't hold the classes tied to race anymore.

[ChikariShu]

I'm trying to say don't hold the classes tied to race anymore.

U mean if u sub and Orc u would actually look like an Orc ?
or if u are a dwarf and u sub Bishop u would look liek human ?

that's what i am trying to avoid

the reason why nc soft stopped the subs at lvl 80
is in my opinion to save time for armor development

But it doesn't even save much
almost all classes have light and heavey masteries
so they HAVE to make those for all races annyhow
so only ones they can save on is the following:

Robes for Orc warriors male and female
Robes for dwarves male and female

and that's it
for 4 robe designs they stop the subs

poor reason for me

i dont even think dwarves got a skin in S80 for light armor
havent seen it yet annyhow
if somoene has i'd like a pick

[Eamonn]

U mean if u sub and Orc u would actually look like an Orc ?
or if u are a dwarf and u sub Bishop u would look liek human ?

that's what i am trying to avoid

the reason why nc soft stopped the subs at lvl 80
is in my opinion to save time for armor development

But it doesn't even save much
almost all classes have light and heavey masteries
so they HAVE to make those for all races annyhow
so only ones they can save on is the following:

Robes for Orc warriors male and female
Robes for dwarves male and female

and that's it
for 4 robe designs they stop the subs

poor reason for me

i dont even think dwarves got a skin in S80 for light armor
havent seen it yet annyhow
if somoene has i'd like a pick

No more like how the healers aren't subclassing but are getting each others skills. For example being a human bishop with a light elven party recall skill and staying human bishop.

So i'd go Orc mage but be able to learn say PR skills and not sub. Just like the mob Orc archers for example.

[Rohirrim]

But it doesn't even save much
almost all classes have light and heavey masteries
so they HAVE to make those for all races annyhow
so only ones they can save on is the following:

Robes for Orc warriors male and female
Robes for dwarves male and female

and that's it
for 4 robe designs they stop the subs

poor reason for me

i dont even think dwarves got a skin in S80 for light armor
havent seen it yet annyhow
if somoene has i'd like a pick


Human fighters, Orc fighters:
No robe design

Human mystic, Orc mystics:
Only robe design

Dwarves:
Only heavy design

Light/Dark elves:
Has all 3

That is the armor design status from S80 and up...no idea why Orc mystics don't have all 3 designs though since they do have masteries for all 3 armor types just as dwarves has masteries for heavy and light.

[ashaara]

I agree sub lvl should be raised to the same as main .
With the new higher lvl hunting areas the old sub cap basicly makes subs useless,
so the whole point now turns out to be all the work lvling subs just get some skills for main ?
As it is now they only way to lvl a sub to useful lv in the new areas is to pay and seperate it. It is very cute seeing dwarfs healing and buffing and seeing elf titans etc.

[ChikariShu]

Since so manny quests is lvl 81 or more now
it would make no sence if they did not also increase sub level
at least to 82
To make subs able to take quest

cuz if u have moe then one sub
u'r not gonna seperate all subs from u'r main are you ?
just to hunt or be able to take a quest
that comes close to ridicilous

[Katzy]

Personally, I think mains and subs shouldnt be the SAME, but main should be increased to 90 and subs to 85, or at the LEAST lvl 82....

This would make a hell of a lot more sence, than simply putting up a permanent roadblock at lvl 80...... The game IS growing (lvl wise), make subs grow with it.