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-   -   Aeore Healer cleanse (http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=242508)

Ninja Proxy 07-08-2012 03:31 AM

Aeore Healer cleanse
 
Healers have so many cleanse capabilities, with very low re-use, w/ 2 cleanse almost spamable.
It is rather oxymorous that a healer can cleanse any 5-10min re-use skill relatively easy every 1 second.

Classes that are heavily depended on debuffs like wynn, have crazy long re-use on their skills...
Using for example "dimensional binding" that has a 4-5min re-use means almost nothing in mass pvp...
Marks & exiles in party vs party pvp are almost useless Vs a good / auto healer
Everything is instantly cleansed...

I still can't understand why the long re-use on debuff skills in this game.
Since the implementation of "diminishing marginal returns" there is no point to make some classes useless by giving long re-uses to their skills...

Yunalesca 07-08-2012 08:37 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
I agree it was very stupid of the devs to put many cures/cleanses on 1 class with low re-use.

PcB 07-08-2012 08:40 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
I enjoy it with my healer. :)
(btw I agree)

Skelton 07-08-2012 10:15 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy (Post 3246977)
Healers have so many cleanse capabilities, with very low re-use, w/ 2 cleanse almost spamable.
It is rather oxymorous that a healer can cleanse any 5-10min re-use skill relatively easy every 1 second.

Classes that are heavily depended on debuffs like wynn, have crazy long re-use on their skills...
Using for example "dimensional binding" that has a 4-5min re-use means almost nothing in mass pvp...
Marks & exiles in party vs party pvp are almost useless Vs a good / auto healer
Everything is instantly cleansed...

I still can't understand why the long re-use on debuff skills in this game.
Since the implementation of "diminishing marginal returns" there is no point to make some classes useless by giving long re-uses to their skills...

So far I have no complains from my wynn on pvp. I manage to use my debuffs on time and still kill ppl fast. btw, you should buff with wizard harmony and use magic weapon for pvp. I see many wynns roll with bow + warrior harmony doesn't help a lot unless you using cougars and your target is not moving at all (or you are using final form like i do sometimes and instantly kill ppl but that is if you are a kamael) . When all 3 marks land, combined with high matk and INT you can deliver some powerful dmg on the enemy with mark retriever, but that is as long as you use it. Just put some INT dyes, get a retributer +4 with 300 element and you can reach a lot of m.atk.

Also, marks are not supposed to kill someone by DOT. Exile reuse time is rather quick with wizards harmony, but mass exile is kinda slow i would say, yet used on perfect time, you can stop a healer or even two at same time with good timing.

You wrote that some classes useless, which ones? Wynn Summoner? One of the most powerful classes in game atm and I'm not the only one to confirm this. Healers are healers and they are perfectly fine the way they are if you ask me.

But you also said, some skills are useless against good / auto healers so I guess the problem is not the skills but the players. I don't see the problem here, you want to spam debuffs because healers can clean fast but healers clean fast because all DD target the healers and not you.

Tiferet1 07-08-2012 10:30 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Well, healers are supposed to be the counter-class for summoners... Not that Erase Impact is useful.

Yunalesca 07-08-2012 01:02 PM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiferet1 (Post 3247046)
Well, healers are supposed to be the counter-class for summoners... Not that Erase Impact is useful.

TBH, so far it looks like healers are suposed to be the counter for every class ingame. Cleanse abilities should have been split with ISS.

Tiferet1 07-08-2012 01:13 PM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
That's unbalanced PvP for you :p

Smittie 07-08-2012 02:17 PM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
I dont really see how the low re-use of cleanse is broken.

You still have to target ppl and cleanse, its not like you automatically do it (then again, I dont play on Naia, might be different there?).

I do know pvp lasts alot longer now than it did a few years back, and I do like that.

What is the reuse on the mass cleanse, I dont have that one yet, but I'm guessing its more than 1-2 seconds.

Trenshero 07-08-2012 04:15 PM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
The low reuse of cleanse is a problem, especially in some areas of the game like Olympiad. Also keep in mind most PvP groups are stacking two healers so you have to deal with both healers using both single target and group cleanses.

PvP got longer because of stacking healers with such efficient debuff clears and the HPS they can put out these days. Damage went up proportional with defense/HP Pools so that didn't really do anything for PvP (and in PvE MOB power went up so the stat boost is purely cosmetic, IMO).

Healer HPS and Stacking Cleanses is what lengthened PvP. Doesn't last so long when you only have one and they get focused (or when you're 1v1ing without a ton of QHP/CP Pots).

Ninja Proxy 07-08-2012 10:13 PM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skelton (Post 3247045)
You wrote that some classes useless, which ones? Wynn Summoner? One of the most powerful classes in game atm and I'm not the only one to confirm this. Healers are healers and they are perfectly fine the way they are if you ask me.

I never said that wynn is useless in all aspects of the game. In Pve field atm is the best soloer in party areas... one of the best 1v1 player especially against newbies. even a bad player can play wynn and feel strong.

But, versus expirienced players wynn is failing. and especially w/ the upcoming glory days update... I see no room for wynn pvp/pve wise.

What most ppl dont know is... that in open pvp... a wynn is the easiest char to kite. keeping the distance when needed over "600" range and wynn is useless. for close range adversaries it is a bit trickier but if u know the "balance heal" skill visualisation you can easily interupt it... especially if u are using "complemeting" programs :)

In mass pvp, Wynn has no constant dmg, so any other DD is far better than a single wynn in a 7 man pty...

As I said in another post, 1 wynn in pty is like -1DD, 2 wynns in pty is like 1 DD...
3 wynns in a pty = WIN. (unless ppl decide to change party set up to 3 healers) And that alone proves that Healers make wynns useless if played properly.

Healer clease capabilities:

-Tree Cleanse: (which is like perma cleanse if you spam tree summon button)
-Radiant purge: single target (1-2 sec re-use)
-Brilliant purge: mass utility (30-40 sec re-use)
-Talisman cleanse: 1min re-use if i remember correctly
-Disparition: If you are Dark elf

PS: Skelton i have all that dude... Gear/lvl is not an issue here. Besides, your wynn is 92lvl... if you pvp 94+ healer parties you'll feel robed. (roba 3ekoumpwth dld :P )

LunA10 07-09-2012 04:59 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
So, nerf healers to make summoners more overpowered? no thanks :).

A good pvp player focus on healers for reasons like that. Beat the healer = no cleanse, simple!

Yunalesca 07-09-2012 07:33 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LunA10 (Post 3247162)
So, nerf healers to make summoners more overpowered? no thanks :).

A good pvp player focus on healers for reasons like that. Beat the healer = no cleanse, simple!

You're such genius! It's that simple to beat the healer and the 2nd healer will definitely not cleanse/res him for sure :) i'm sure i can also hit for 10k in that heavy armor seraph on every hit!

I'm with Trenshero, this long fights are getting pretty LONG and eventually they become boring. As long as 1 healer can be resed/brezed, it's another freakin 5-10 minutes to take him down cause there's always 2 of them cleansing every debuff every second, making pt invincible every minute.

Sweetnight 07-09-2012 07:55 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
In mass PvP (most time 1 vs 2 parties on naia, rarely fair 1 vs 1), if the tank of the party is good, before level 94 healer can't cleanse ****. A good tank can keep both healers in agro, if he know what the ** he is doing there. The tree cleanse is not that effective though to remove the agro, and there is rare a chance to move asap from agro range in order still to be able to heal your party members (especially those, who are running from healer range). Not all healers are so pro (or using illegal programs) to cleanse in the second when debuff is up. I'm, not 94 yet to confirm the mass cleanse, but i think it has 30 second cool down (it keep up the ability to cant debuff for 7 seconds, so count it 23). There is nothing wrong with that, due to the game HAS CHANGED! Live with that already! Debuffs reuse time is shorter, why not and cleanse to be? Damage is MUCH higher, it is normal we to heal better. Just live with the new game, or leave.

Ariathni 07-09-2012 08:24 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
From a healer's point of view...

Complains from a wynn about anything just sound so wrong to me. Wynn is almost unbeatable in oly, best solo char, has tonz of debuffs and 4+ summons that deal damage while the summoner is debuffing others in pvp.

Yes, the healer has cleanse. That's why its called a healer and not something else. That cleanse is good but it's very far from overpowered. Tree cleanse is useless because the tree dies even if an elpy jumps on it. The single target cleanse is useless unless you are somehow immune to tank agression. The party cleanse has 30 seconds reuse, which gives around 23 seconds to everyone to freely spam debuffs (because you can really spam them nowadays). In a pve situation, any cleanse is useless against most of mob debuffs.

And another thing... You have a shortage of healers now? Nerf them and you will see what a shortage looks like. Nobody likes to die in the first 10 seconds of a pvp, neither to stand around and do nothing because all your skills are on reuse. I personally never would have returned to this game if the GoD changes hadnt been done.

Just my 2 cents.

Kanaeda 07-09-2012 08:25 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
http://oi46.tinypic.com/1qhe6t.jpg

Kanaeda 07-09-2012 08:28 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
btw, I'm healer, and summoner is stupid overpowered, no sympathy here. obviously.

Sweetnight 07-09-2012 08:32 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariathni (Post 3247196)
From a healer's point of view...

Complains from a wynn about anything just sound so wrong to me. Wynn is almost unbeatable in oly, best solo char, has tonz of debuffs and 4+ summons that deal damage while the summoner is debuffing others in pvp.

Yes, the healer has cleanse. That's why its called a healer and not something else. That cleanse is good but it's very far from overpowered. Tree cleanse is useless because the tree dies even if an elpy jumps on it. The single target cleanse is useless unless you are somehow immune to tank agression. The party cleanse has 30 seconds reuse, which gives around 23 seconds to everyone to freely spam debuffs (because you can really spam them nowadays). In a pve situation, any cleanse is useless against most of mob debuffs.

And another thing... You have a shortage of healers now? Nerf them and you will see what a shortage looks like. Nobody likes to die in the first 10 seconds of a pvp, neither to stand around and do nothing because all your skills are on reuse. I personally never would have returned to this game if the GoD changes hadnt been done.

Just my 2 cents.

+ 1 to that! Only people who never played healers are wanting it to be nerfed. But when you remove the agro from them in PvP and they are able to attack again, noone is crying!

Ninja Proxy 07-09-2012 09:02 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanaeda (Post 3247199)
btw, I'm healer, and summoner is stupid overpowered, no sympathy here. obviously.

Yeah... +1 on that... Wynn is so over-powered that Top pvp parties are utterly disgusted by so much Over-poweredness in 1 class that they dont want them in party, or if by accident they had a wynn in the PvP const, they kick them so they can repent for their sins of choosing such an over-powered class...

I myself, punish my arrogant soul in a daily basis, for choosing to play this over-powered class for the last 7 years.

Most of the time i just cry, from shame, locked in my bathroom alone in a corner. since all other other people must suffer my over-powerdness in-game.

Kanaeda 07-09-2012 09:42 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetnight (Post 3247201)
Only people who never played healers are wanting it to be nerfed.

+1

op: quit yer whining, learn to play/gear better, or reroll to "op" healer

Yunalesca 07-09-2012 09:48 AM

Re: Aoere Healer cleanse
 
Rofffl, shortage of healers? Do we play the same game?

Considering a lot CPs have 2 healers and rest is 1 of every class( except for feohs sometimes there's 2), you call this shortage of healers?

We must not be playing the same game.

You made my day, healers have more trouble to find kartia group at 90+ than other classes, i wonder why? :)

Fine by me nerf their cleanse, i have more healers in clan that want party than any other class. I have no shortage here, for sure.

Btw, just because it's healer it doesn't mean it needs crapload cleanses. Before only cardinal had AFAIK and nobody complained about elf and dark elf not having, cause you already fail to realize, Tanks have cleanse and immunity, and summoners have 2 cleanses, healer doesn't need this sort of cleanse amount for party.


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