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Old 03-29-2011, 09:27 PM   #1
magefan
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Default Suggestion for ban policy

Before i write my suggestion, a little talk.

GM View
The GMs want to make the best way for money and for player i guess.
Analyzing the rules:
First Strike:7-day ban, GM thinking from player: okok you find me, ok i dont using any third program from now on, because i dont want to lose my account.
Second Strike:14-day ban, GM thinking from player:you know that i dont stop in the first strike because this game to hard to not cheating, but i guess now need to stop or i lose my high lvl char.


Neutral legit player view
I want a fair game in oly and seige, and i dont want a bot party in my exp spot, i have 5 hour for playing and if a bot party exping in my spot, i cant exping another place because some1 else take it, so i can only submit a petition and waiting for gm for do his job, but now the rules really worst, because cheater have 2 try, even worts for profit maker, those never stop, just creating new account and continue where he end it.
What will happen:Gms not understand me and just think about money and money, and not making a better rules, i pay 12$ every month, and i get only a unplayable game, i can pay that money for a better game, so bye all!!!

Cheaters view
First Strike:7-day ban, ah well, i made a bad step i wasnt kill that stupid war party, when i was botting, but next time i will do that before i use bot prog.
First Strike in money maker:Who cares about banning, i have lots of account for this situation, so i just pay another 1 and continue for spoiling.

Second Strike:14-day ban, oh well i need to becareful, i don't want to lose my account, so i use bot prog only in full party, no1 will petition for me :P
Second Strike in money maker: thx this + chance , when i reinstalled, i will put every mats in my clan cwh in every 3 hour, so i don't lose to much mats :P

Third Strike in money maker: who cares? i can create new account, so i can continue this in forever.

and for radar, no1 can recognize who use it in seige so.

My think:this rules looks like a forum rules, i play lots of game, and l2 rules really light, any game that using server, cheater banner forever in second strike

ps.dont post anything for my talk, only for my suggestion.

And now my suggestion

First Strike:14-day ban to account
Second Strike:Permanent ban to account

And for safety, write a in game message
ANNOUNCEMENT:Cheater will be banner forever in second strike!

And for cheater to go to legit, i have a suggestion for that to, make a reward for legin player, who played 1 year and not have infractions, he get an item.

That all bye.


And for GM plz make a poll to this thread.
1:I like your idea for reward only.
2:I like your both idea.
3:The new rules perfect, and i vote to your reward part.
4:This suggestion its a ****

Last edited by magefan; 03-29-2011 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

I'm fine with their current policy. The proof is in the pudding, I can hunt where I want without seeing bots. That's a huge improvement if you ask me. I don't care how they accomplished it.

As for other forms of cheating, well, with permabans in place, they still happened. I have no problems with this new policy, not sure why everyone's so freaked. You've been living with it for months, and things have gotten better, not worse. Prices have come down, not gone up, there are fewer bots today then last year. What's the problem?

I LIKE the idea of a reward for every year you've played with 0 infractions tho... they should consider this and make it worthwhile, like birthday vit. It actually is something to be proud of, we all know there are billions of illgotten adena floating around that have cost the rest of us the ability to buy gear. So give us some good gear for NOT getting it the dishonest way.
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:40 PM   #3
Wedge
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by magefan View Post
First Strike:14-day ban to account
Second Strike:Permanent ban to account

And for safety, write a in game message
ANNOUNCEMENT:Cheater will be banner forever in second strike!

And for cheater to go to legit, i have a suggestion for that to, make a reward for legin player, who played 1 year and not have infractions, he get an item.
1st strike: 30 day ban,-10lvls if xp bot or 100k karma and 5 deaths right on the place, where caught if pvp bot.
2nd strike: 6 months ban,-70lvls if xp bot or wipe inventory, WH, equiped items and reset all oe skills if pvp bot.
3rd strike: permaban.
Announcements: Cheater Bob1 going to banana island.
Thats have more sense. But still too kind comparison with previous policy. Anyway it's will hold many lagit ppl to not try cheats.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge View Post
1st strike: 30 day ban,-10lvls if xp bot or 100k karma and 5 deaths right on the place, where caught if pvp bot.
2nd strike: 6 months ban,-70lvls if xp bot or wipe inventory, WH, equiped items and reset all oe skills if pvp bot.
3rd strike: permaban.
Announcements: Cheater Bob1 going to banana island.
Thats have more sense. But still too kind comparison with previous policy. Anyway it's will hold many lagit ppl to not try cheats.
That's alittle extreme, as the 2nd strike would virtually mean the guy isn't gonna use the character again... making 3rd strike pointless

Suggestion:
Public Humiliation Plan (PHP lol)

1st Strike:
  • 7day ban
  • Written Email warning with specific ban details
  • Can be petitioned but will require solid proof
2nd Strike:
  • 14day ban
  • Written Email with specific ban details
  • *Cannot* be petitioned
  • Name changes color to orange, this will last 1 month while fading out slowly
3rd Strike:
  • Perma ban
  • Written Email with ban details
  • *Cannot* be petitioned
  • Name added to public list on website with some ban details, e.g. botting, pvp programs...etc.

The 1st strike is more lenient for the false-positives (which I have personally been a victim of... being banned for standing still afk for 5 hrs... and I know it was then because they teleported me...), so it can be petitioned.

The 2nd strike starts off with public humilation, where everyone who sees you will know you cheated. And it cannot be petitioned because if you failed to petition the 1st strike, chances are that since you cheated once, you'll cheat again... if you didn't the second time, and it's a false positive, it's your fault for cheating the first time... kinda like how RL prisoners are treated... which *can* be unfair, but it acts as a deterrent for cheating in the first place.
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

Why i not think that before, nice suggestion, marking a cheater.
But i think its better to put that mark in after first strike, not second, no need two chance, you heard this?
A leopard cannot change its spots, it means, you can do anything to a lazy man, but he not change even if you kick it.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:55 PM   #6
Jorge
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge View Post
1st strike: 30 day ban,-10lvls if xp bot or 100k karma and 5 deaths right on the place, where caught if pvp bot.
2nd strike: 6 months ban,-70lvls if xp bot or wipe inventory, WH, equiped items and reset all oe skills if pvp bot.
3rd strike: permaban.
Announcements: Cheater Bob1 going to banana island.
Thats have more sense. But still too kind comparison with previous policy. Anyway it's will hold many lagit ppl to not try cheats.


I think This is a good Idea but a bit extreme also, so my idea for this would be like this:

1st Strike: 7 days ban and -3 level penalty
2nd Strike : 14 days ban and -6 level Penalty
3rd Strike : Perma Ban (and -10 lvl penalty (jus in case )

We know how long NC take to ban a bot / prg's User, so Level penalty would be a good measure.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:52 PM   #7
Ykara
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

Well...

For Bots:
1st time:
- 30-day Ban
- 5€ to recover AFTER 30 days.
- Loses 15 levels.
- Items removed and randomly given to non botted(or not on bot) players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- Hero Status Removal

2nd time:
- 60 Day Ban
- 25€ to Recover AFTER 60 day period
- Loses 30 Levels
- Items removed and randomly given to non botted(or not on bot) players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Announce stating last warning
- Hero Status Removal


3rd time:
- Perma Ban
- Loses ALL Levels
- Items removed from all his/hers accounts(IP Check) and randomly given to non botted(or not on bot) players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Announce stating that <playerid> is no more.
- Hero Status Removal

RMT:
1st time:
- 15 day Ban
- 25€ to Recover AFTER ban time.
- Removal of ebayed items/adena
- Public List
- Hero Status Removal

2nd time:
- 30 day Ban
- 50€ to Recover AFTER ban time.
- Removal of ebayed items/adena and donation to players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Announcement
- Hero Status Removal

3rd time:
- Perma Ban
- Removal of all items/adena from all his accounts(IP Check) and donation to players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Annoucement
- Hero Status Removal

Radar/Ranger
1st time:
- 15 Day Ban
- 5€ to recover account after ban time has expired
- Public List
- Impossibility to carry SS and CP pots for 3 months
- Hero Status Removal


2nd time:
- 30 Day Ban
- 25€ to recover account after ban time has expired
- Public List
- Impossibility to carry SS and CP pots for 6 months
- IG Announcement
- Hero Status Removal


3rd time:
- PermaBan
- Public List
- IG announcement
- Items/adena Donation as referred above.
- Hero Status Removal

** If in any 2nd offense, the involved toon is a clan leader and owns a castle/CH/Fort - Those immediately become property of NCSoft dummy clans including items that are given to random players.. or thrown to the floor around Aden or Giran.. or maybe even FI. - IG Announcement
** Clan leadership changes that are supposed to be applied, are immediately cancelled and clan gets pronounced dead. - IG Announcement

Last edited by Ykara; 03-30-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Suggestion for cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ykara View Post
Well...

For Bots:
1st time:
- 30-day Ban
- 5€ to recover AFTER 30 days.
- Loses 15 levels.
- Items removed and randomly given to non botted(or not on bot) players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- Hero Status Removal

2nd time:
- 60 Day Ban
- 25€ to Recover AFTER 60 day period
- Loses 30 Levels
- Items removed and randomly given to non botted(or not on bot) players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Announce stating last warning
- Hero Status Removal


3rd time:
- Perma Ban
- Loses ALL Levels
- Items removed from all his/hers accounts(IP Check) and randomly given to non botted(or not on bot) players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Announce stating that <playerid> is no more.
- Hero Status Removal

RMT:
1st time:
- 15 day Ban
- 25€ to Recover AFTER ban time.
- Removal of ebayed items/adena
- Public List
- Hero Status Removal

2nd time:
- 30 day Ban
- 50€ to Recover AFTER ban time.
- Removal of ebayed items/adena and donation to players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Announcement
- Hero Status Removal

3rd time:
- Perma Ban
- Removal of all items/adena from all his accounts(IP Check) and donation to players that reported him or are close to him when he gets banned.
- Public List
- IG Annoucement
- Hero Status Removal

Radar/Ranger
1st time:
- 15 Day Ban
- 5€ to recover account after ban time has expired
- Public List
- Impossibility to carry SS and CP pots for 3 months
- Hero Status Removal


2nd time:
- 30 Day Ban
- 25€ to recover account after ban time has expired
- Public List
- Impossibility to carry SS and CP pots for 6 months
- IG Announcement
- Hero Status Removal


3rd time:
- PermaBan
- Public List
- IG announcement
- Items/adena Donation as referred above.
- Hero Status Removal

** If in any 2nd offense, the involved toon is a clan leader and owns a castle/CH/Fort - Those immediately become property of NCSoft dummy clans including items that are given to random players.. or thrown to the floor around Aden or Giran.. or maybe even FI. - IG Announcement
** Clan leadership changes that are supposed to be applied, are immediately cancelled and clan gets pronounced dead. - IG Announcement
hahahhahahahah.... they ban for ZRanger.. ahhahahahahahha

/look at any Siege and you will understand why I "hahah.."
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:45 PM   #9
AndreasK
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

As I wrote in the anouncment thread:

1 st time offense:
add to NC Soft's list of punishment a -1 level on ALL the toons in the account and ALL their subs (that way if someone bots a sub, he will be hurt seriously on all toons)

2nd offense:
same as above, but 3 levels this time.

I beleive these would be enough to stop anyone from botting or using a pvp program, without making him loose his account. of course these can only work if they maintain their strict anti-bot policy and continue to ban as they recently did.
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Old 03-31-2011, 01:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasK View Post
As I wrote in the anouncment thread:

1 st time offense:
add to NC Soft's list of punishment a -1 level on ALL the toons in the account and ALL their subs (that way if someone bots a sub, he will be hurt seriously on all toons)

2nd offense:
same as above, but 3 levels this time.

I beleive these would be enough to stop anyone from botting or using a pvp program, without making him loose his account. of course these can only work if they maintain their strict anti-bot policy and continue to ban as they recently did.
It would also have to assume that there are no/minimal false-positives... since I have been a victim of that once, I am concerned about it o.o
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:11 AM   #11
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

I like concept of punishing against what was committed.
I would say to every step leave 7 and 14 days ban (1st / 2nd penalty)
But most important is:

for bot (getting exp)
1st
drop 10 lvl (all subs/main)
7 days ban
can't party for next 7 days

2nd drop 20 lvl (all subs/main)
14 days ban
can't party for next 14 days

3rd perma?

For 3rd pgm in PvP
1 st
7 days ban
Set Karma 1000000 or so for 7 days
drop carry limit to minimum
can't party for next 7 days

2nd
14 days ban
Set Karma 1000000 or so for 14 days
drop carry limit to minimum
can't party for next 14 days

3rd
Perma?


RTM
1st
7 days ban
unable to trade/drop/etc (like trial account) for next 14 days.
can't party for next 14 days
Take all stuff what is suspected


2st
14 days ban
unable to trade/drop/etc (like trial account) for next 30 days.
can't party for next 30 days
Take all stuff what can't be bought in NPC shop.
Armour/weapon replace by NPC stuff to 'let' one play

3rd
Perma

P.S. colouring label of cheater is nice idea.
About oly points / Hero status it is worth to discuss but first I would settle more important things.

Last edited by sercatum; 03-31-2011 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Added PS
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

The current policy foes not take into account the harm done to other players / Lineage II in general by the "punished" characters. It's ment to discourage players from boting and ban serious offenders.

There are some problems in that tactic.

1) Serious offenders get away with the first notice and they never bot again. They simply don't care anymore. They are already 85/80/80/80 and even if they are not XP is not so hard nowadays, specially for them, they have armies of boxed buffers, gear and adena.

2) That does not fix the "economy" problem. They still have plenty of uber gear and lots of adena. They don't have any need to sell and at the same time lowbies have worthless stuff that they are not interested to buy. Overinflated economy in lack of cash.

The problem is more complicated than it seems. If you follow a light policy you don't eliminate the problem, if you follow a very strict policy (i.e. perma ban all ppl that boted / rmt) there is a danger of empty servers.

The issue here is that on the one hand you want to keep legits happy (most of them can't compete) but on the other hand you don't want anyone baned, you want them legit.

Making legits happy does not aleays involve perma bans. Why should I care if an unnamed farmer got banned ? Do I get something out of it ? Why should I care if some random 85 level toon got banned ? Did i knew him b4 ?

What I would care is a reward for those never - ever involved in any bot / rmt issue and a penalty for all those that did. Taking back what earned ilegally and giving a reward to legits.

Many ideas in that sense like

First Strike
1) Removing XP / SP from toons proportionate to level
2) Removing XP / SP from boxed buffers that SCREAM "I always was a pickup / buff bot"
3) Removing fixed percentage of WH items (including the clan wh of a level 1 dwarf on same or linked account) including adena and randomly distribute them to 100% legits. Many aditional criteria could be applied like playing at least 2 years and not beeing 85/80/80/80 yet.
4) Allowing the player to login and play as usual (no 7 days restriction) but with an colored name for 2 weeks.

Second Strike
1) Removing lots of XP / SP
2) Perma ban boted buffer
3) Removing 90% of non stackable items, 80% of stackable WH items and 100% of their adena and distribute to others
4) Replace all equiped gear with inferior (i.e vorpal -> moirai, vesper -> dynasty, boss jewels -> normal jewels etc)
5) Allow player to login and play as usual (no 14 days restriction) but with a colored name, removed Nobles status, forbidding participation in Sieges, TW, Fortresses, Olympiads, CC, instanced Raids and 9 ppl parties (max 3 ppl) for 1 month.

Third Strike.
Perma Ban

Though I honestly think that it wont be ever nesecary any more. Anyone that got to Second Strike would either quit game or never bot again.

That way cheaters are heavily injured and not the game. Their ego would be seriously hurt and their game advantage would be turned into major disadvantage for them and at the same time a reward to others. Their mentality should either change after that or they would quit.

They would be forced to sell some of their precious (previously overpriced) items and thats for the good of all. Legits would get the items and they would get some adena needed to keep playing. They should also XP like legit to get the levels lost (but now they cant do it in their fully stacked 9 ppl parties or with their boxed buffers) and try to get some adena starting low again.

That experience should teach them lot more than a 14 days or perma ban and at the same time they would be beneficial for the server. They could again see a new perspective of the game .. The perspective of a 80-82 level toon that does not have boxed buffers (that in general were boted to level 80), that does not have powerfull 85/80/80/80 full pt (gr8 percentage of it boted or assisted by bots or got gear by rmt) that can plv them in a week, that do not have billions of wealth accumulated by non legit means.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that you can't be 85 and having billions without boting. 85 can be done (xp is really fast now) if you play for long time for many hours a day. Also millions can be done if good at market. What I am saying is that at some point of time hundrends of level 82 toon appeared out of nowhere with billions of wealth and / or gear accumulated in some months. THAT can't be done. Your logs could easily show that kind of activities.

1) Can a human play a WC 18 hours a day for 3 months ?
2) Can a human have 2 billions having done 20 transactions ?
3) ...

So, if you want legits happy, boters punished and subscriptions stable you should implement a policy that punishes boters in a way that they are not completely baned from game but seriously penalized but in the same time rewarding the legits.

Above were some examples, anything fitting the mentality described should do the job ..

Last edited by JohnDoe; 03-31-2011 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Good idea about yellow cheater name
And also deleveling on both, main and subs.
Very often 85lvls botting on sub.
About "cheaters gear - to legits" imo it's imposible. Those item must be just wanished from the game.
Yellow name should be given to cheater after 1st catch and last forever or to 2nd catch, when name change to another, more dramatical color, maybe black.
And some very annoying, long and hard quest, to change name color to white or even without possibility name changing good too. From the beginning of world ppl mark cheaters in many ways to warn others about potential danger.
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Keep dreaming........
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

This is a very interesting thread giving (mostly) constructive feedback on player opinions of what makes an acceptable and fair ban policy. Please note, however, that for legal reasons (libel and slander) public indication of a player that has cheated would not possible. No humiliation, no marked names or players, no list of cheaters, etc...
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
So, if you want legits happy, boters punished and subscriptions stable you should implement a policy that punishes boters in a way that they are not completely baned from game but seriously penalized but in the same time rewarding the legits.

Above were some examples, anything fitting the mentality described should do the job ..
Well said.
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sace View Post
This is a very interesting thread giving (mostly) constructive feedback on player opinions of what makes an acceptable and fair ban policy. Please note, however, that for legal reasons (libel and slander) public indication of a player that has cheated would not possible. No humiliation, no marked names or players, no list of cheaters, etc...
Sick, I won that argument.
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sace View Post
This is a very interesting thread giving (mostly) constructive feedback on player opinions of what makes an acceptable and fair ban policy. Please note, however, that for legal reasons (libel and slander) public indication of a player that has cheated would not possible. No humiliation, no marked names or players, no list of cheaters, etc...
yet some MMO's does publish who has been banned and HGMSpam did announce the banned names when he went on rampage right before he got booted out of the Lineage2 GM team. I really miss the announcements that he made.
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sace View Post
This is a very interesting thread giving (mostly) constructive feedback on player opinions of what makes an acceptable and fair ban policy. Please note, however, that for legal reasons (libel and slander) public indication of a player that has cheated would not possible. No humiliation, no marked names or players, no list of cheaters, etc...
Is it NC Soft policy,or some rules in the United States which forbid that ?

I played for example an online game for a while, Ogame. Like most of games, a forum is offered to players as a way to share opinions and ideas (http://board.ogame.fr)
On this forum, you will find a Pillory with a list of nicknames, the object of the ban and the duration of it.
Trust me, humiliating could be very effective to stop cheaters, a lot of people play for the "size" of their e-*****, sad but true.

Edit : You will find an US version of Ogame forum pillory here http://board.ogame.us/index.php?page=Pillory so I guess it's legal, but against NCSoftcurrent policy ?
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Suggestion for ban policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laby View Post
Is it NC Soft policy,or some rules in the United States which forbid that ?

I played for example an online game for a while, Ogame. Like most of games, a forum is offered to players as a way to share opinions and ideas (http://board.ogame.fr)
On this forum, you will find a Pillory with a list of nicknames, the object of the ban and the duration of it.
Trust me, humiliating could be very effective to stop cheaters, a lot of people play for the "size" of their e-*****, sad but true.

Edit : You will find an US version of Ogame forum pillory here http://board.ogame.us/index.php?page=Pillory so I guess it's legal, but against NCSoftcurrent policy ?
Let's just say that, for a corporation as large as NCsoft, libel is a legally sensitive area. I highly doubt that something like this will be allowed in our games. It may have been in the past, but laws change and often become more strict. In the purpose of this thread, it would be more helpful to see ban policy ideas and feedback that do not involve that method.
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