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Old 11-22-2017, 09:51 AM   #21
Chucksteak
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by KissThis View Post
Gambling is looked at as putting money in and either A. Not getting Rewarded by "loosing" or B. Getting rewarded by "winning".
Loot boxes or in this case Capsules get around this by letting you "win" every time, there are 0 capsules that are filled with nothing, every single one has something in it. Therefor no matter how crappy the reward is, it in fact is still a reward, rarely the one you wanted. If you win every time, it cannot be labeled as gambling, because you cannot "loose".
This is a problem we have as a society. Twisting around words and using compartmentalization of transactions to disguise ones intent at the suffrage of others is a terrible practice. It is a perfect example of why unbridled capitalism is actually a terrible thing to witness.

If I offer you a box, and there is a chance that you will find a diamond ring in that box, and a chance you won't, is this gambling?

Of course not, because if you didn't get a ring, you still got the air. It wasn't "empty" and this is special "promo" air, you see, I farted in this air and boxed it myself.

No it is obviously gambling, 1 party gives commodity to another party for a chance to get an outcome, wherefore both parties agree on what is a positive and negative outcome for the spender. In a casino, this is cash and no cash. In L2, you will notice they list the "prizes" in tiers, from "low" to "top". Thus establishing the parameters for the positive and negative outcomes.

Since I am a big fan of the dictionary;

gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
synonyms: take a chance, take a risk;


Quote:
Originally Posted by KissThis View Post
#2. If you have ever taken any kind of math class, not even advanced math you will know that statistics do not compound like you think they do.
10% chance to get good item 90% chance to get crap. Every time regardless of how many time you click your odds are always 90/10. It does not compound to 80/20, 70/30, 60/40.... Every single time. So even at a 99.99% rate to get the good stuff, opening 1,000,000 boxes it is still not guaranteed that you are going to get the good stuff STATISTICALLY.
If only you had taken Aath and English (just playing don't get upset)

sta·tis·tics
stəˈtistiks/Submit
noun
noun: statistics
the practice or science of collecting and analyzing numerical data in large quantities, especially for the purpose of inferring proportions in a whole from those in a representative sample.


You are actually exactly opposite of what you think. Using your example, if you open 1,000,000 boxes and get nothing, statically speaking, your chances are 0% not 10%. (ironically accurate for L2 inst it).

You would NOT be guaranteed opening any one box, or even several boxes, but by 1,000,000 opens, you will have realized your 10% rate, if that is the actual rate. (statistically speaking ofc :P)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da View Post
this difference tends to be reduced, close to diminished while the sample size is being increased.. 1 million cases is a huge sample size for statistics..
+1

#stillwaiting
#helovesmenot
#notbuyingsh it
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:33 PM   #22
Neutron
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Drop rates are currently not disclosed and it's still not an industry standard to do so.

With the recent controversies surrounding EA's Battlefront 2, there's a lot of public scrutiny on the inclusion of paid, chance based rewards in games right now.

I just suggest for you players that do not like these kind of system in games to continue to reach out to your local government representatives and express your thoughts.

My opinion is that it is a question for society to answer if we find that loot boxes and games of chance integrated into games to be acceptable or not and how transparent and regulated it should be.

~Thanks
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucksteak View Post
This is a problem we have as a society. Twisting around words and using compartmentalization of transactions to disguise ones intent at the suffrage of others is a terrible practice. It is a perfect example of why unbridled capitalism is actually a terrible thing to witness.

If I offer you a box, and there is a chance that you will find a diamond ring in that box, and a chance you won't, is this gambling?

Of course not, because if you didn't get a ring, you still got the air. It wasn't "empty" and this is special "promo" air, you see, I farted in this air and boxed it myself.

No it is obviously gambling, 1 party gives commodity to another party for a chance to get an outcome, wherefore both parties agree on what is a positive and negative outcome for the spender. In a casino, this is cash and no cash. In L2, you will notice they list the "prizes" in tiers, from "low" to "top". Thus establishing the parameters for the positive and negative outcomes.

Since I am a big fan of the dictionary;

gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
synonyms: take a chance, take a risk;




If only you had taken Aath and English (just playing don't get upset)

sta·tis·tics
stəˈtistiks/Submit
noun
noun: statistics
the practice or science of collecting and analyzing numerical data in large quantities, especially for the purpose of inferring proportions in a whole from those in a representative sample.


You are actually exactly opposite of what you think. Using your example, if you open 1,000,000 boxes and get nothing, statically speaking, your chances are 0% not 10%. (ironically accurate for L2 inst it).

You would NOT be guaranteed opening any one box, or even several boxes, but by 1,000,000 opens, you will have realized your 10% rate, if that is the actual rate. (statistically speaking ofc :P)


+1

#stillwaiting
#helovesmenot
#notbuyingsh it

+1

and btw Chuck you're an asset for these forums..
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:13 AM   #24
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
My opinion is that it is a question for society to answer if we find that loot boxes and games of chance integrated into games to be acceptable or not and how transparent and regulated it should be.

~Thanks
The problem is like with shady online poker games, it is always possible to host them in a gambling-lawless jurisdiction and enjoy net neutrality, knowing no court order can shut you down nor any government or worldwide organization can demand access to your services be blocked.

On the other hand, appealing to the government is the only thing that can be done at this point.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
Drop rates are currently not disclosed and it's still not an industry standard to do so.

With the recent controversies surrounding EA's Battlefront 2, there's a lot of public scrutiny on the inclusion of paid, chance based rewards in games right now.

I just suggest for you players that do not like these kind of system in games to continue to reach out to your local government representatives and express your thoughts.

My opinion is that it is a question for society to answer if we find that loot boxes and games of chance integrated into games to be acceptable or not and how transparent and regulated it should be.

~Thanks
Hi and thank you for your response, although it wasn't a thread started by me..

I believe the reason of this thread is not mainly the lack of transparency in reward rates.. It's certainly not that players don't like the games of change integrated in the game..
It's mainly the high cost of the events, the lack of big rewards and the suspected nerfing of them as the time goes by me.. And here is where transparency would be needed.. I guess we wouldn't ask for transparency in case we were happy from the rewards..

Personally, I wouldn't care to gamble with 5-10 EUROs and get only PK scrolls (btw they are useless in a server where PKs are really rare) and other small things.. But if i am to spend 150 EUROs for the big bundle, i would like to have at least an estimation about the outcome.. Otherwise i won't and a lot of people like me.. So maybe NC should really listen to the players and not send them to their government representatives..
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:42 AM   #26
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
Drop rates are currently not disclosed and it's still not an industry standard to do so.

With the recent controversies surrounding EA's Battlefront 2, there's a lot of public scrutiny on the inclusion of paid, chance based rewards in games right now.

I just suggest for you players that do not like these kind of system in games to continue to reach out to your local government representatives and express your thoughts.

My opinion is that it is a question for society to answer if we find that loot boxes and games of chance integrated into games to be acceptable or not and how transparent and regulated it should be.

~Thanks
Do you denial that chance on this event is also affected from the user lvl, activity, l2store activity ncoin history? Also that "chance mechanism" has "happy hours" ?
That also a high lvl char that has been offline for long time period has high chance on enchantment , l2store events?

It is a fact that players have to pay for the 3 pack of 12k Ncoin to get low chance items. Players that say i got 7s with 80 ncoins and i got it with 400 ncoins are just 1 in 1m and only prove the gambling system.

That is your chance system. And you know that, only different is the side where you stand and can not to smth about it.
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:09 AM   #27
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
Drop rates are currently not disclosed and it's still not an industry standard to do so.

With the recent controversies surrounding EA's Battlefront 2, there's a lot of public scrutiny on the inclusion of paid, chance based rewards in games right now.

I just suggest for you players that do not like these kind of system in games to continue to reach out to your local government representatives and express your thoughts.

My opinion is that it is a question for society to answer if we find that loot boxes and games of chance integrated into games to be acceptable or not and how transparent and regulated it should be.

~Thanks
lolz, Neutron.....
We're silly but not that much

Let me translate that very fast:
We won't disclose the odds, since nothing is forcing us to do so and besides, we've been doing that for years and you didn't care.

We also know that pay2win is game-breaking, but it makes us hell of a lot money and the noobs keep buying it, therefore we got no reason to stop that ether.
If you're concerned about it, well we don't care, go cry to your government, they care even less than us and it's not like they can do anything about it anyways. So pay2win or we can't help you.

The society can't answer questions that are related to virtual realms, which are IP of a company (NCSoft). Either we quit, be cause you're selling gane-breaking items for $$$, which is pure cheating or we jump on the same train (which is unacceptable for most players).

In my case I've tried to find a middle ground, by not pvping the cheaters and taking away that privilege from them hurts a lot. If you can't pvp the veterans, you're basically worth nothing in l2. But I'm getting bored lately and so are the rest that decided to go the same route.
The moment your dedicated playerbase quits, the mobs won't be enough to kill with the dragon weapons or the +16 st10 SAd items you've sold em.....
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:14 PM   #28
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da View Post
Hi and thank you for your response, although it wasn't a thread started by me..

I believe the reason of this thread is not mainly the lack of transparency in reward rates.. It's certainly not that players don't like the games of change integrated in the game..
It's mainly the high cost of the events, the lack of big rewards and the suspected nerfing of them as the time goes by me.. And here is where transparency would be needed.. I guess we wouldn't ask for transparency in case we were happy from the rewards..

Personally, I wouldn't care to gamble with 5-10 EUROs and get only PK scrolls (btw they are useless in a server where PKs are really rare) and other small things.. But if i am to spend 150 EUROs for the big bundle, i would like to have at least an estimation about the outcome.. Otherwise i won't and a lot of people like me.. So maybe NC should really listen to the players and not send them to their government representatives..
They listen you, clearly, and ignore you suggestion cuz even when a few ppl will not buy anymore a lot of whale still spend a lot, thats all.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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Originally Posted by m0da View Post
About your point #2.. I have finished 2 universities followed by numerous seminars, certifications blah blah.. In all of these, math was always an essential part.. And i am talking about advanced maths..
So after this introduction, i will once more state that STATISTICS do work this way.. Otherwise, we wouldn't have statistics or use any percentages at all in every day life..
As you probably didn't notice, I never mentioned the word guarantee.. Statistics is not a guarantee, its called statistics for this reason.. What I said is that if you don't have an occurrence in 1,000,000 tries with a given probability of 10%, it will be like being hit by a thunder on a city street.. This might happen but it doesn't affect statistics...

You are being confused with the so called difference between the theoretical and experimental probability.. These 2 might not be the same but this difference tends to be reduced, close to diminished while the sample size is being increased.. 1 million cases is a huge sample size for statistics..

I hope now you understand what i said..
jesus christ, can u please tell the name of these coleges so i ll never use their materials, please.

how can a moron like u never heard of average, median, and standard deviation, when i said this wasnt the coin toss experiment U SHOULD KNOW WHAT THE *****ING COIN TOSS EXPERIMENT IS.

mannnn, i pity this forum u guys are doomed
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Old 11-24-2017, 01:24 AM   #30
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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mannnn, i pity this forum u guys are doomed
thx god we still have u
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Old 11-24-2017, 01:55 AM   #31
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Exactly.

For everybody:
In the coin toss experiment done in high school mathematics classes a real, physical item is used, a disk of metal with a halfways equal weight distribution throughout.
In Lineage 2, however, there is no little gnome hidden in your computer who flips a coin each time you make an overenchantment attempt. What there is is an algorithm, a set of mathematical formulas, which simulates a coin toss. Or to be more precise, an algorithm which gives to a casual observer the impression of a stochastic process.

In reality nothing could be further from the truth. As anybody who has crafted a larger amount of Soulshots and watched the clover animation over his head, anybody who has upgraded Fortune Pockets at Grocer Pelu should know, luck in Lineage 2 comes in streaks, much more so than in real life. This must be so because otherwise before the invention of the Blessed Enchantment Scroll nobody would have ever gotten his Atuba Mace to +7.

Insofar using mathematical tools developed to deal with games of chance where for example dice have been specifically manufactured to fall on a specific side with, as close as it is possible, a probability of 1/6 is pointless in a video game context. In Lineage 2 the dice are weighted.
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Old 11-24-2017, 06:08 AM   #32
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox'bane View Post
jesus christ, can u please tell the name of these coleges so i ll never use their materials, please.

how can a moron like u never heard of average, median, and standard deviation, when i said this wasnt the coin toss experiment U SHOULD KNOW WHAT THE *****ING COIN TOSS EXPERIMENT IS.

mannnn, i pity this forum u guys are doomed
You make no sense troll.. I have no idea wtf you are blubbering about...

If you really cared about university material, you would be able to make an argument that is not 3 sentences out of which the 2 are insults..

/ignore
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Old 11-24-2017, 06:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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They listen you, clearly, and ignore you suggestion cuz even when a few ppl will not buy anymore a lot of whale still spend a lot, thats all.
Agree to that...
However, a business model that takes into consideration only the big spenders or whales as you call them, is doomed to fail imho...
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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thx god we still have u
u got Elmar that is way more smarter and polite than i m.

btw sometimes mixa and socketka try to put some sense on u, but u guyz dont want to see.
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Old 11-25-2017, 02:24 AM   #35
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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Originally Posted by Yidao View Post
Exactly.

Insofar using mathematical tools developed to deal with games of chance where for example dice have been specifically manufactured to fall on a specific side with, as close as it is possible, a probability of 1/6 is pointless in a video game context. In Lineage 2 the dice are weighted.
Yep. Additionally there is no gaming commission to check that NC hasn't made rates abysmally low to promote whalage, lower powercreep, and reduce ingame item inflation. NC could cut all black Friday jewel combines success rates in half and no one could be the wiser. People will ***** and moan on the forums. But ultimately NC is unaccountable.

They're a casino that doesn't post odds, and can change the game rules at any time. But players dump hundreds of dollars(if not thousands) into them regardless.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:21 AM   #36
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutron View Post
Drop rates are currently not disclosed and it's still not an industry standard to do so.

With the recent controversies surrounding EA's Battlefront 2, there's a lot of public scrutiny on the inclusion of paid, chance based rewards in games right now.

I just suggest for you players that do not like these kind of system in games to continue to reach out to your local government representatives and express your thoughts.

My opinion is that it is a question for society to answer if we find that loot boxes and games of chance integrated into games to be acceptable or not and how transparent and regulated it should be.

~Thanks
Neutron,

I have pointed out previously how NC is all about not following industry standard.

http://boards.lineage2.com/showthrea...=294389&page=3

I find that to be a complete BS response where you are cherry picking when to follow "industry standard" and when to not.

EA is actually setting the industry standard right now. When they had severe negative feedback, they removed the "pay 2 play" aspect completely from the new "Star Wars" game. Will NC soft be following the current industry standard of removing all forms of "Pay 2 win" following the over 97% negative feed back you have publicly received in a recent poll?

I mean are you all about following the industry or not?

Advising us to go to our government is a good idea. Many of us will do this, and we hope that one day NC gets sued into oblivion in an American court. This is a rather unpatriotic and super deflective suggestion though. For one thing, NC acts as our "faux" government as far as the fictional world of L2 goes. We are coming to you, and demanding for better treatment. We are showing you in polls, in posts, in diminishing populations where you are closing servers, that we are unsatisfied and want better. So on one hand, as our pseudo representative, represent us for a positive change please. On the other hand, how dare you push full obligation onto others when you are the one in a better position to actuate change. Where is your sense of ethics or obligation?

How comfortable are you with willingly assisting the Koreans in defrauding Americans with every "event" that comes out anymore where you won't even tell them how bad a deal they are getting? My boss pays me well, but I still reserve the right to tell him when something he asks me to do is wrong or unethical and refuse to do it. Worst case scenario, I go work for someone else for more money and sleep well at night.

My opinion is that we as an L2 community, that you presume to be a leader of, are in effect an isolated society. Albeit, under a corrupt dictatorial style regime. This society has already answered the question of whether we think these loot boxes with unknown odds are acceptable or not, with a resounding F@CK NO! Most of real society doesn't give much of a rats *** about gamers and as such you will and do see a great lag in relevant policy to regulate these greedy entities. I feel that I am doing everything that is reasonably in my power to do. I write letters to my representatives, I post to my CMs, I post to my community, we all know there is no point in submitting tickets. I have laid out all the facts and information for you.

Remember, YOU are the one who says you want this boat to float for another decade. Your current opinions and continuing lack of action on things that are long past over due will not get you to that goal.

As always I really do thank you for your time and response, even though it looks like it was proof read by NC and lacks the authenticity of your true thoughts and opinions.

-CS
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:29 AM   #37
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

As a follow up, I have to post more.

I will not be buying ANYTHING on the L2 store without disclosed odds of what I might get from my purchase.

I have to advise as policy to everyone else, to not use the L2 store as well. This is a corrupt mechanism and until everyone is on the same page as this nothing will get accomplished.

They want us to express 100% our feelings, and this will mean we absolutely MUST show them we are done with this clown store and the defrauding of Americans, and to a lesser extent, the foreigners.

If you want to pay 2 win, please resist the urge, at least for a few months. Even then, use the Russians, not the L2 store.

-CS
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:18 AM   #38
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

you still didnt get it. neutron got no power at all with anything related to development. even if he say some opinion, korea just say "milk milk milk".

you have to understand one thing - even if they now immediately change game mechanics from p2w to something better, people will need years and years to get items that top spenders had in 2014.

face it, game is just for milking and it wont change. you can be the cow, or you can just move around.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:35 AM   #39
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

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you still didnt get it. neutron got no power at all with anything related to development. even if he say some opinion, korea just say "milk milk milk".

you have to understand one thing - even if they now immediately change game mechanics from p2w to something better, people will need years and years to get items that top spenders had in 2014.

face it, game is just for milking and it wont change. you can be the cow, or you can just move around.
You can't say I didn't try.

They have some options that would make it a lot better, and really quickly. I don't think they would ever be able to bring back those that have left.

All they have to do is devalue everything at the top. Add all L2 store exclusive gear and +6 through +16 full armor and wep drops to all mobs, with a good rate. Be sure and include bloody and dark stones, give it a month or 3 and boom, gap closed. The only item that needs changing is the dragon weps., everything else just needs to be very easily available to the masses. You would have to raise the level cap as well to recreate the lost sense of achievement, but that's been gone for a while for most people nwo anyways. If it weren't so bad as it is, you could do a lot less drastic things.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:40 AM   #40
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Default Re: @Neutron - Aliens, the future is now

that would cause massive rage of top spenders and most possibly big loss of income for ncsoft. just look how they holding prices of brooch jewels, if they would cut it by half old spenders would speak out loud.
despite nothing is in their hands, every pixel is owned by neutron (thx neutron for making that weapon, its still your)
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