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Old 07-24-2012, 06:31 AM   #101
Kanaeda
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

this thread is still going? lol

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Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy View Post
On-topic now... Still waiting for a valid, consistent & solidified argument.
you whine too much and are just here to argue with people who will never agree with you
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #102
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

I listed some Vital debuffs in my post, he ignored them :-P

I think most "active posters" in this thread are just here to debate with people who will never agree with them.

I'm going to start using my ignore list again, personally.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:49 PM   #103
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Ok, its not your debuffs...what debuffs is it then?

Can you list a few debuffs that are so vital, and what class they are vital to?

Lets get real and start making a list, shall we, not have it just be imaginary skills anymore, ok?

Coz you are talking about MY cleanse here....
OK, so suspension. It is an aoe debuff that lasts for 2 minutes. With reuse jewels, sub skill for reuse, and wiz harmony the reuse on it is ~1 minute. Yet, it will never stay on longer than about 20 seconds in a pvp because one of the 2 healers is going to cleanse it. It doesn't make it worthless, but it does reduce its usefulness, and it also costs 423 mp, so having to recast it every time it's up can become a real mana drain.

On a side note, the problem with increasing the reuse of brilliant purge is that tanks wtf spam hate, so the only reliable way around that is to mass cleanse it. So while it would be nice to have debuffs not get removed so quickly, they need to address the tank hate issue first. Either increase the cool down on that or make it like a 50/50 chance to work.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:40 AM   #104
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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I listed some Vital debuffs in my post, he ignored them :-P

I think most "active posters" in this thread are just here to debate with people who will never agree with them.

I'm going to start using my ignore list again, personally.
You mentioned Exiles and binds. Those would make the target not able to do a single thing. I consider them disablers, not debuffs.

If you have to completely disable 2 healers all the time to be able to kill ppl in pvp, we do have a problem.

You basically are looking for a free way to kill off 2 healers at once, so you guys can wipe the other party real quick.

PVP was changed to promote longer fights, you guys wanna bring it back to what it was in c3, nukers and archers just pwning everyone in a few seconds.

I think most "active" promoters of a change to cleanse are just bad dds. Maybe even horrible. Now they want a crutch handed to them, so they can feel good about themselves.

Boohoo.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:42 AM   #105
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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OK, so suspension. It is an aoe debuff that lasts for 2 minutes. With reuse jewels, sub skill for reuse, and wiz harmony the reuse on it is ~1 minute. Yet, it will never stay on longer than about 20 seconds in a pvp because one of the 2 healers is going to cleanse it. It doesn't make it worthless, but it does reduce its usefulness, and it also costs 423 mp, so having to recast it every time it's up can become a real mana drain.

On a side note, the problem with increasing the reuse of brilliant purge is that tanks wtf spam hate, so the only reliable way around that is to mass cleanse it. So while it would be nice to have debuffs not get removed so quickly, they need to address the tank hate issue first. Either increase the cool down on that or make it like a 50/50 chance to work.
Exactly. The tank is one of the most important participants in party vs party pvp. I'm not sure most tanks realize it though. And the fact that they can put hate on a healer every few seconds means we need a way to get rid of that also, or have it just change target to them, not lock it.

Feels like the ppl wanting the nerf is more worried about their armor destruction not lasting its full 20 seconds though, or not being able to play piano on their dots and then use the collector skill...
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:25 AM   #106
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Exactly. The tank is one of the most important participants in party vs party pvp. I'm not sure most tanks realize it though. And the fact that they can put hate on a healer every few seconds means we need a way to get rid of that also, or have it just change target to them, not lock it.

Feels like the ppl wanting the nerf is more worried about their armor destruction not lasting its full 20 seconds though, or not being able to play piano on their dots and then use the collector skill...
Exactly what? He is saying Agro is balanced compared to Cleanse, and that Debuffs need boost cause they have no use. Are you f-ing blind? (Rhetorical question ofc)

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PVP was changed to promote longer fights, you guys wanna bring it back to what it was in c3, nukers and archers just pwning everyone in a few seconds.
WTF are you talking about? mass PvP in GoD is exactly like that. Yul & Feoh facerolling w/ skills that have close to ZERO re-use.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:57 AM   #107
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy View Post
Exactly what? He is saying Agro is balanced compared to Cleanse, and that Debuffs need boost cause they have no use. Are you f-ing blind? (Rhetorical question ofc)



WTF are you talking about? mass PvP in GoD is exactly like that. Yul & Feoh facerolling w/ skills that have close to ZERO re-use.
He is actually saying that you cant nerf cleanse and keep hate as it is, and no, Im not blind.


Also a bit odd how I dont get facerolled by Yuls and Feohs left and right. I actually have time to heal. Oh, and I have time to cleanse also...
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:31 AM   #108
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

cleanse should not clear dbuf, but just take away the effect.

reset should be availble at the same lvl as cleanse, and not just reset the timer, but make the dbuf active again.

this way dbuffer can keep using there dbuf skill's, and it's up to the healers, if those dbuf's are working or not.

ofcourse zranger healer's wil have a big advantage as alway's.. but who care's right
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:38 AM   #109
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy View Post
Exactly what? He is saying Agro is balanced compared to Cleanse, and that Debuffs need boost cause they have no use. Are you f-ing blind? (Rhetorical question ofc)



WTF are you talking about? mass PvP in GoD is exactly like that. Yul & Feoh facerolling w/ skills that have close to ZERO re-use.
Not at all what he said, basically said hate is cast so often the cleanse and party cleanse are the only way around that. Nerf one you've got to nerf the other..

Yuls with ZERO reuse skills? There attacks or..what skills are you talking about? Loled if your upset a DD is able to spam a few attacks (pinpoint, quickshot ect)

The Yuls skills that matter(minds eye and quickfire) if you were unfortunate enough to learn that have a 10 and ~2min reuse.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:03 PM   #110
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Not at all what he said, basically said hate is cast so often the cleanse and party cleanse are the only way around that. Nerf one you've got to nerf the other..
So actually you are saying that 1 tank w/ 4-5 sec re-use on "superior hate" & 8-10 sec on "superior hate aura" can control 2 healers w/ spamable Cleanse & tree cleanse(near spamable if u resummon)? Inbetween 7 seconds of immunity from "brilliant purge" every 15 seconds? Cool story.

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Yuls with ZERO reuse skills? There attacks or..what skills are you talking about? Loled if your upset a DD is able to spam a few attacks (pinpoint, quickshot ect)
Upset? No... just jealous cause my constant skill rotation has 8-15 sec re-use, and poor healer is reducing my Dps to near Zero by spaming cleanse. Even though, my role is to CC the enemy team, i end up completely burned of skills 20sec later having to w8 another 1-4min to be able to perform optimaly. While all other DDs can keep their Dps up to par w/ each other. Especially Yul & feoh.
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The Yuls skills that matter(minds eye and quickfire) if you were unfortunate enough to learn that have a 10 and ~2min reuse.
Minds eye is increasing the crit power by 70%. Great skill, so it gives crazy boost to the awesome constant dmg they already do. Even if wynn had a similar buff, it would have ZERO use since there is NO constant dmg coming out of this char. Reason? Cleanse....
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:23 PM   #111
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

with mindseye damage on crit's stil not better then just spamming skill's.. unles every hit would be a crit and counter crit would be on..

and not many archer would trade the 20 minute +12% attack speed for the 20 second attack speed skill..

i don't think anyway's.. maybe at the highest lvl where you can overenchant those skill's. i donno.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:04 PM   #112
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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So actually you are saying that 1 tank w/ 4-5 sec re-use on "superior hate" & 8-10 sec on "superior hate aura" can control 2 healers w/ spamable Cleanse & tree cleanse(near spamable if u resummon)? Inbetween 7 seconds of immunity from "brilliant purge" every 15 seconds? Cool story.


Upset? No... just jealous cause my constant skill rotation has 8-15 sec re-use, and poor healer is reducing my Dps to near Zero by spaming cleanse. Even though, my role is to CC the enemy team, i end up completely burned of skills 20sec later having to w8 another 1-4min to be able to perform optimaly. While all other DDs can keep their Dps up to par w/ each other. Especially Yul & feoh.

Minds eye is increasing the crit power by 70%. Great skill, so it gives crazy boost to the awesome constant dmg they already do. Even if wynn had a similar buff, it would have ZERO use since there is NO constant dmg coming out of this char. Reason? Cleanse....
Yes, you have to remember a tanks skill locks the target for 4seconds after it lands also. Permitted of course it isnt cleansed. If you nerfed the group cleanse, or single target cleanse your going to always be hated anyways...

So now your going to debuff the tank with all your debuffs and never target the healer at this point because we'll, your hated =/ Pick whatever you want, either way your debuffs are usually being cleansed, or your debuffs are being spamed on a tank.

Minds eye gives 110% Crit damage at 95, and at 99 130%, and its still not enough. Healers in Heavy armor are more overpowered then cleanse being spamable. Brb5k pdef and 2k cast speed.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:52 AM   #113
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy View Post
Upset? No... just jealous cause my constant skill rotation has 8-15 sec re-use, and poor healer is reducing my Dps to near Zero by spaming cleanse. Even though, my role is to CC the enemy team, i end up completely burned of skills 20sec later having to w8 another 1-4min to be able to perform optimaly. While all other DDs can keep their Dps up to par w/ each other. Especially Yul & feoh.
Near Zero DPS?

You are playing a SUMMONER. What is your summons doing while you are debuffing, just standing there doing nothing?

You rock brah.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:34 AM   #114
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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You mentioned Exiles and binds.
You seriously didn't read my post. Off to ignore.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:37 AM   #115
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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OK, so suspension. It is an aoe debuff that lasts for 2 minutes. With reuse jewels, sub skill for reuse, and wiz harmony the reuse on it is ~1 minute. Yet, it will never stay on longer than about 20 seconds in a pvp because one of the 2 healers is going to cleanse it. It doesn't make it worthless, but it does reduce its usefulness, and it also costs 423 mp, so having to recast it every time it's up can become a real mana drain.

On a side note, the problem with increasing the reuse of brilliant purge is that tanks wtf spam hate, so the only reliable way around that is to mass cleanse it. So while it would be nice to have debuffs not get removed so quickly, they need to address the tank hate issue first. Either increase the cool down on that or make it like a 50/50 chance to work.
Agree, and the hate spam has much to do with how they designed PvE around so much AoE leveling, they also had to increase Hate Landrate back when because it was bouncing off MOBs even at the lower levels so they'd have to do more than just nerf it in PvP to balance that out. They'd have to do something about MOBs as well otherwise groups would be complaining everywhere about MOBs going rogue and plowing players while XPing.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:41 PM   #116
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Yes, you have to remember a tanks skill locks the target for 4seconds after it lands also. Permitted of course it isnt cleansed. If you nerfed the group cleanse, or single target cleanse your going to always be hated anyways...

So now your going to debuff the tank with all your debuffs and never target the healer at this point because we'll, your hated =/ Pick whatever you want, either way your debuffs are usually being cleansed, or your debuffs are being spamed on a tank.

Minds eye gives 110% Crit damage at 95, and at 99 130%, and its still not enough. Healers in Heavy armor are more overpowered then cleanse being spamable. Brb5k pdef and 2k cast speed.
So prety much you agree w/ me. There is no place for wynn in mass pvp... even though you strongly suggest that tank would have wynn on "hate lock" which is unlikely since if that was the case in 1v1 wynn would die in 10 seconds versus any good tank, due to the fact that wynn has to target his summon to heal it and keep "transfer pain" up. Let me tell you a secret, This never happens. Wynn Vs tank, wynn Vs healer, Tank vs healer = VERY LONG FIGHTS.

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Near Zero DPS?

You are playing a SUMMONER. What is your summons doing while you are debuffing, just standing there doing nothing?

You rock brah.
http://forum.fansite.cz/index.php?to...312.1880;imode

Wynn Summoner are almost noncapable to deal physical damage in PvP (Cougars are melee and they ate almost every Superior Hate Aura from Sigel Knights, causing them to do almost no damage to tanks), Reapers are mage/ranged physical summons, but they have weak physical stats.
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:31 PM   #117
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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You seriously didn't read my post. Off to ignore.
I will just have to live with that lol.
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:35 PM   #118
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy View Post
http://forum.fansite.cz/index.php?to...312.1880;imode

Wynn Summoner are almost noncapable to deal physical damage in PvP (Cougars are melee and they ate almost every Superior Hate Aura from Sigel Knights, causing them to do almost no damage to tanks), Reapers are mage/ranged physical summons, but they have weak physical stats.
Why did u put that link in there?

I dont speak that language, nor am I interested in what your fav priv server is, keep that stuff off of official forums.

So not even your reapers are good for dmg? Odd how you think your only dmg is from 4 dots with kinda long cooldown, and one retriever. How come you cant deal magic dmg from your reapers? And is their ranged attack not a physical attack?

What is the point of being a summoner if you arent gonna use your summons?
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:54 PM   #119
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Smittie View Post
Near Zero DPS?

You are playing a SUMMONER. What is your summons doing while you are debuffing, just standing there doing nothing?

You rock brah.
he cant, 'cause healer ninja'ed all his summons with cleanse

ok, on topic: this thread is going long enough to no one come with a REAL suggestion to the "problem" with healer's cleanse (repeateadly told by the OP), what makes the party dps near to nothing (as the majority here - what dont play healer - agree with).

Just to remind: if cleanse get a nerf, then healers still have tree to wipe out debuffs; if tree get nerf too, 2 healers can spam panic/brilliant heals till the eternity (they have mana enough to this); if panic/brilliant get nerf, also they have rebirths (with 2 healers, it can be casted from 5/5min, wich can be enchanted for +chance to cleanse debuffs), and I'm not considerating here the cleanse from talismans/racials and the possibility of infinites bress'es/group ress'es (5/5min with 2 healers).

What I'm wanting to point out here is: the cleanse thing isnt the only pecualirity that makes healers too primordial in a party PvP, but all their skills combined. Then, if for any way devs nerf cleanse, they'll end nerfing all the others skills of healers (almost spammable and with no cost at all to mana), otherwise it will have no point to take off/nerf cleanse with all others skills avaliable in healers menu.

Then, @ninja proxy, healers are overpowered? ok, we get it; cleanse is being over used? ok, we get it too; you cant do **** on pvp situations and pvp teams dont wanna a useless summoner? ok, we also get it; but in 6 pages of thread I still didnt get what really you want they do to healers and their cleanse: nerf, bigger cooldown, trash that skill to the dump, remove healers from game? what? If at this point, you cant 'name' the cows here, then all this QQ about summoners nullity will sound like ******** from a #fail gamer.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #120
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Then, @ninja proxy, healers are overpowered? ok, we get it; cleanse is being over used? ok, we get it too; you cant do **** on pvp situations and pvp teams dont wanna a useless summoner? ok, we also get it; but in 6 pages of thread I still didnt get what really you want they do to healers and their cleanse: nerf, bigger cooldown, trash that skill to the dump, remove healers from game? what? If at this point, you cant 'name' the cows here, then all this QQ about summoners nullity will sound like ******** from a #fail gamer.
I understand that the thread is tooooooo long, but seriously, if you bother posting please make sure u've read everything. Ofc there are may suggestions...

This is mine.

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My post is about boosting Wynn in Pvp party mode.

Example:

You can easily give very low re-use on summoner's marks near spamable,
But make them like any other debuff pre-god was, Sleep was imposible to land on a person that is already under the effect of the skill Give also a penalty to "mark retriver" same like "lingering protection" making the target immune to dmg from "mark retriver" for 10-15sec. thus keeping the 1v1 PvP wynn in the current state he is.

Diminishing returns is already making skills that are spamable less effective, so being spamable would have very low land rate anyway, thing which will make the healers also focus on cleansing their party more than just once every 15 sec.

Also, Remove the Crit-rate of marks/exile on land, and add DoT crit-rate chance periodicaly.
Because the marks do not scale up in periodic dmg, and there is only use in them aslong as "mark retriver" is guaranteed
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