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Old 10-06-2017, 10:57 AM   #1
Chucksteak
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Default The answer to, and end of L2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIVnt8SDdrY

Here is a guy, a former L2 player and enthusiast, who got tired of so called "AAA" games failing to live up to expectation and overly focused on greed through pay walls at the expense of in game experience.

What happens when a game, based largely off of the best parts of L2, is made with current software and player experience in mind? You tell me, I can't wait to subscribe to this explicitly NON P2W model, I think I'll go stat donating now.
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Min 11:11 and on... a couple of jewels:

"...FTP games come to market and they put player advancement in the game behind a pay wall...pay to win monetization strategies...it makes me so mad...";

"...you're progressing together with the community... and if you got one guy that just jumps in and ok, he's at the top of the food chain because he spent 5 minutes purchasing things in the marketplace... are you kidding me?...";

"...this is a reverberating trend among us as a community, what gamer's wanna see, and it just bewilders me to see that companies don't see this..."

"...from a security perspective, it is a much higher wall to scale for gold sellers and botters, if they have to suscribe to a game..."

He clearly has the right idea, in a different segment he mentioned there has to be a plateau between paying and skill where they are equally leveled to meet one another.

All sounds ok, let's see if they can deliver.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucksteak View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIVnt8SDdrY

Here is a guy, a former L2 player and enthusiast, who got tired of so called "AAA" games failing to live up to expectation and overly focused on greed through pay walls at the expense of in game experience.

What happens when a game, based largely off of the best parts of L2, is made with current software and player experience in mind? You tell me, I can't wait to subscribe to this explicitly NON P2W model, I think I'll go stat donating now.
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/BornInHell/
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:57 AM   #4
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

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Originally Posted by Oeste View Post

"...from a security perspective, it is a much higher wall to scale for gold sellers and botters, if they have to suscribe to a game..."
Just want to comment on this part... because it's not.
It isn't for WoW, it wasn't for L2 when it was subscription based.

Simply put, if there's enough money to be made to make the subscriptions worth it, then gold/item sellers will come.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Oh ****, don't click on Born's, use mine for SURE!

https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/ChuckSteak/
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

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Originally Posted by Asynja View Post
Just want to comment on this part... because it's not.
It isn't for WoW, it wasn't for L2 when it was subscription based.

Simply put, if there's enough money to be made to make the subscriptions worth it, then gold/item sellers will come.
I would go even further than that. In a subscription-based game there is always the temptation for the company to look the other way as far as bots are concerned, going for another month of revenue, especially when they have fallen on hard times. Like for example in the case of "Ashes of Creation" I have serious doubts whether in this day and age a video game without fast transport/teleportation is viable; subscriber numbers might drop rather sooner than later.

If you want to put up a wall to scale for gold sellers and botters, the only way is a substantial account creation fee of 100 or 200 dollars, combined with a waiting time of 1 or 2 months until the account becomes playable to avoid credit card fraud. Then you charge a moderate subscription fee of 15 dollars or whatever to finance the current operations (community management, bug fixing, development of new updates).
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

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Originally Posted by Yidao View Post
I would go even further than that. In a subscription-based game there is always the temptation for the company to look the other way as far as bots are concerned, going for another month of revenue, especially when they have fallen on hard times. Like for example in the case of "Ashes of Creation" I have serious doubts whether in this day and age a video game without fast transport/teleportation is viable; subscriber numbers might drop rather sooner than later.

If you want to put up a wall to scale for gold sellers and botters, the only way is a substantial account creation fee of 100 or 200 dollars, combined with a waiting time of 1 or 2 months until the account becomes playable to avoid credit card fraud. Then you charge a moderate subscription fee of 15 dollars or whatever to finance the current operations (community management, bug fixing, development of new updates).
There are other ways to do it. IE tying it to something personally identifiable. But that becomes problematic when you open it up to more than one area. IE: USA, Canada, all of Central/South America, etc.

Either way, they certainly have options available if they feel like doing the work and/or limiting their player base.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

I hope it'll be a good game. But I've said well over a dozen times now about previous releases. Some got close to greatness, but ultimately tried to cater to western focus group ********. Which ends up killing the game anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yidao View Post
Like for example in the case of "Ashes of Creation" I have serious doubts whether in this day and age a video game without fast transport/teleportation is viable; subscriber numbers might drop rather sooner than later.
Both BDO and Archeage did fine with slow travel. You just have to make those distances meaningful. Theywere with player property, trading, and economy all centered around travel. Rather they died to rampant packet cheating and P2W cashshops making ingame player investment meaningless. Progression is the cornerstone of an MMORPG. Infringing upon it kills your game.
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Old 10-08-2017, 10:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

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Originally Posted by Yidao View Post
If you want to put up a wall to scale for gold sellers and botters, the only way is a substantial account creation fee of 100 or 200 dollars, combined with a waiting time of 1 or 2 months until the account becomes playable to avoid credit card fraud. Then you charge a moderate subscription fee of 15 dollars or whatever to finance the current operations (community management, bug fixing, development of new updates).
You could also try to limit 1 account/id card. If you get permanently banned for certain things, you may start over, otherwise the ID card is blacklisted permanently.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:22 AM   #10
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

That's how Tengxun handles Lineage 2 in China. You need an ID Card to make an account, and they actually check your identity - after you have entered your ID Card Number, the system shows you your name, residential address etc. for confirmation. And once you are banned, you stay banned. It's one person, one account. With 1.3 billion Chinese on the mainland alone, one player more or less doesn't really matter

But Asynja is right, this works only in one-country territories. The company making "Ashes of Creation" is located in the USA, and apparently there are websites where you can check whether for example the name on a Driver's License fits the number. But that only works with American Driver's Licenses - the Ministry of Public Security certainly won't make its database available to a foreign company.

In theory you could require players to send in a handwritten Letter of Application where they explain in their own words and in good English why they want to play that game, of course by regular mail to slow down the process and reduce the possibilities for forgery via scanning, photocopying etc.
But that would require a lot of staff to check and archive the letters and would probably eat up all revenue by itself
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackl View Post
I hope it'll be a good game. But I've said well over a dozen times now about previous releases. Some got close to greatness, but ultimately tried to cater to western focus group ********. Which ends up killing the game anyway.

...

Both BDO and Archeage did fine with slow travel. You just have to make those distances meaningful. Theywere with player property, trading, and economy all centered around travel. Rather they died to rampant packet cheating and P2W cashshops making ingame player investment meaningless. Progression is the cornerstone of an MMORPG. Infringing upon it kills your game.
That issue about focus groups and different gaming habits in different territories is a big thing at the moment in Korea. Here for example NCsoft Chief Financial Officer Yun Jae-su (Netmarble executives have said similar things):
http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/...&site=lineage2
(the 5th question/answer block)

The main difference between Asian and Western gaming culture used to be that Asians actually met in person to play together in internet cafes (where the owners don't permit the downloading of shady 3rd party software), while the Western player generally sits alone behind a computer screen. But that's now more or less a thing of the past. A Taiwanese "Ashes of Creation" player will sit at home behind his computer, just like his clannie in California. A certain difference might be the clan-proneness of Russian players who during their long northern winter nights are sort of pre-destined to take over all the resources on the server. But maybe that's just a Red Scare cliché

I must admit that I have played neither Black Desert nor Archeage, but I have heard from old Lineage 1 players that the fast troop movements that are possible in that game are what makes PvP so exciting. Being a pure PvE player myself, I can only draw conclusions from real-life analogies: if you have to actually march a unit from one castle to another on a siege weekend, you are prone to being harrassed by snipers and whatnot, like during the old Territory Wars in Lineage 2, where the Territory Wards had to be physically carried across the map. And those caravans with their mobile PvP zones are basically sitting ducks. Google "Road to Basra" and switch to Images (not suitable for minors).

Let's see how "Ashes of Creation" is doing in five years from now
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

NCWest doesn't have the authority to demand ID from anyone. That's the down side of not living in a people's republic
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:13 AM   #13
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

I like the philosophy of the game developer but that's about it at this point...
Overall, it just feels like the game needs more work, i.e. better graphics, better control, better sound effect...etc. Lots of more details it needs...
It just feels like they need more fund to develop the game even further before the launch date.

Next is the music of Lineage2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdSwHhd_VeA

and the vocal recordings...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeMe71wcxa0


So many little details they will need to make better it feels like...
It's funny by the way, when I click the "Ashes of Creation" home page,

BUY NOW button is right at the center and when I click it, $225 USD for alpha package....What's Alpha package??? I don't even know the game and I am already supposed to pay $225 upfront?

Last edited by DreamSeeker; 10-12-2017 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:44 AM   #14
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

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Originally Posted by DreamSeeker View Post
So many little details they will need to make better it feels like...
It's funny by the way, when I click the "Ashes of Creation" home page,

BUY NOW button is right at the center and when I click it, $225 USD for alpha package....What's Alpha package??? I don't even know the game and I am already supposed to pay $225 upfront?
It does need more work, but that is because it is still pre-alpha, if even that. Basically like building a car, and having the engine and body assembled, but the interior needs seats, radio, luxury features etc. Alpha is what comes before beta's, as a partially complete product to begin debugging, testing and critiquing for refinement. Pre-alpha ofc being before that stage even.

No one said you are supposed to buy one of those absurd founder packs, for an exorbitant amount of money. However the project is a crowd funded project, designed specifically to not be P2W. As such there is a reasonable amount of beggary to be expected, but your reward is an appropriate cosmetic item in lieu of a magical +20 cloak of gods that makes you one shot everyone who didn't buy one, and ruins the game.....

Ofc tbh, the most expensive founder pack available wouldn't even cost enough to have made a +8 cloak at the last event, soooo......we can't complain to much as we play they most absurd P2W game to have ever been. Seriously, I've been doing a little research on this, and the amounts several people spend on L2 exceed the normal amount required to win at all other games by a factor of 4 to 10.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Is there *any* comparable game out there that does not have one or more of the following problems earlier or later?:
- bots/scripts
- RMT/Ebay
- P2W
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

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Originally Posted by AnotherSorc View Post
Is there *any* comparable game out there that does not have one or more of the following problems earlier or later?:
- bots/scripts
- RMT/Ebay
- P2W
Hmm comparable being the hard part. I think ESO for the most part would fit this, maybe. But even then I am quite sure there is some sort of RMT you can find.

Can you stop bots and scripts? Yes you can, but it IS a never ending game of whack-a-bot. This true job of attrition would fall to the concerned developer. Obviously NCsoft encouraged this cheating behavior for over a decade before taking some modest steps to address the issue.

Can you stop P2W? Easy, don't make any gear or items outside of cosmetics behind a pay wall. Everything should be obtainable from...playing the game. I will never understand NC soft's current lack of understanding that you should have to play a game......to play a game.

RMT/Ebay? I don't think any good game worth its salt can really overcome this aspect entirely. The thing is, for an economy to actually work (pay attention NC) is that goods need to be obtainable and trade able. However this new game does have a strategy in mind to combat this. There is no fast travel or global AH's or trades. So you would have to have an item, and slow travel to where to trade that item. This would appear to simulate a physical trade, making transactions of money and gear in boundless cyberspace far less feasible.
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:26 AM   #17
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsnova View Post
NCWest doesn't have the authority to demand ID from anyone. That's the down side of not living in a people's republic
You are completely wrong here. You can request an ID card (although you will typically never have access to any database where you could verify it) during account creation; no ID card = no account.

There are certain companies who are required by law to demand ID cards to enable [every single feature] of an account, namely financial institutions. Of course, they, once again, have no access to governmental databases and thus cannot verify anything - but they must save the ID card images to be accessible during international investigations.

Obviously, even if you store such data temporarily, you still fall under the "managing personal data" laws. However, this approach is much better than CN/RU/BR farmers/bots creating 100s of accounts/person and wrecking economy and doing RMT. Especially since you can ban by citizenship and not by IP ranges, which can be proxied or VPN'd.
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Just wondering if this works to curb multiple accts creation per person:
1) Requires mobile no. to register for account.
2) For every login, an OTP will be sent to registered mobile no. for verification. Input method similar to pin entry during login.
3) OTP can be sent via WhatsApp (if possible) or use NCSoft’s current resources to develop an App purely for receiving OTPs or related information to address international mobile nos.
Extra: After logging in for a period of time, an OTP will be sent for input & verification again during intervals to minimize botting.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:35 AM   #19
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Botting was never that hard at all to be tracked down and hunted, killed, stopped.

The problem was/is that NC West do not want to stop it once and for all for some reasons. Obvious or not...

When someone is cheating and using some 3rd party software he is simply changing the original game packets sent from server to him then he sends to server back the packets but changed from his 3rd party software.

Imagine how hard it can be when you are standing and looking at the server's side to check which packets are changed and which are not. They could have stopped botting in game since day 1, but never did that and will never do.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:32 AM   #20
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Default Re: The answer to, and end of L2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndham View Post
Just wondering if this works to curb multiple accts creation per person:
1) Requires mobile no. to register for account.
2) For every login, an OTP will be sent to registered mobile no. for verification. Input method similar to pin entry during login.
3) OTP can be sent via WhatsApp (if possible) or use NCSoft’s current resources to develop an App purely for receiving OTPs or related information to address international mobile nos.
Extra: After logging in for a period of time, an OTP will be sent for input & verification again during intervals to minimize botting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by __SpOO__ View Post
Botting was never that hard at all to be tracked down and hunted, killed, stopped.

The problem was/is that NC West do not want to stop it once and for all for some reasons. Obvious or not...

When someone is cheating and using some 3rd party software he is simply changing the original game packets sent from server to him then he sends to server back the packets but changed from his 3rd party software.

Imagine how hard it can be when you are standing and looking at the server's side to check which packets are changed and which are not. They could have stopped botting in game since day 1, but never did that and will never do.
We aren't talking about L2 mind you. They ofc have already failed us in this area.
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