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Old 05-18-2017, 02:11 PM   #21
Chucksteak
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Default Re: Lineage III

It was irresponsible of them to have never had a TV add campaign. I just happen to see it on the shelf when it first came out and thought it was Diablo style game with castles and dragons.

No one I ever ran into on the streets had ever heard of it, then, or now.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:45 PM   #22
Trenshero
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Default Re: Lineage III

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucksteak View Post

1. PvP/Social/Political system - No other game has come close to L2 in the PvP and social system it has to offer. Such as Clans, Clan halls, castle system, oly system ect. The best you get is some lame instanced or otherwise removed zone to "PvP" in. This system should be kept largely intact.
This is all good in theory, but you're speaking like you've never played another MMORPG. Also, this is usually the stuff that turns people off of this game.

Terrible Combat System. Horrible Movement that was out of date years before the game released. Bare Bones Clan Halls and Castles. A completely unmanageable/out of balanced Olympiad Arena System. Poor Itemization and pretty much no semblance of class balance (there has never been such a thing in L2).

Olympiad - the system you're singing the praises of - is Instanced PvP. So are Dimensional Seiges, pretty much.

The fun thing about L2 was the laid back grinding and social drama - which exists in all FFA PvP games, BTW. But there was a special peculiarity to the L2 player base that made it all the more fun to observe. That is largely gone, though, as the majority of those players have quit. Most of the newer players are "different." The play the game like it's World of Warcraft with a side dish of Overwatch.

In any case, a lot of the imbalances in PvP stem from the outmoded game engine/combat system/movement system they used to develop it. It's also why skill is a borderline non-factor in determining power. It's all about Levels, Gear (Items, OE), and Luck.
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:02 AM   #23
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Default Re: Lineage III

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenshero View Post
This is all good in theory, but you're speaking like you've never played another MMORPG. Also, this is usually the stuff that turns people off of this game.

Terrible Combat System. Horrible Movement that was out of date years before the game released. Bare Bones Clan Halls and Castles. A completely unmanageable/out of balanced Olympiad Arena System. Poor Itemization and pretty much no semblance of class balance (there has never been such a thing in L2).

Olympiad - the system you're singing the praises of - is Instanced PvP. So are Dimensional Seiges, pretty much.

The fun thing about L2 was the laid back grinding and social drama - which exists in all FFA PvP games, BTW. But there was a special peculiarity to the L2 player base that made it all the more fun to observe. That is largely gone, though, as the majority of those players have quit. Most of the newer players are "different." The play the game like it's World of Warcraft with a side dish of Overwatch.

In any case, a lot of the imbalances in PvP stem from the outmoded game engine/combat system/movement system they used to develop it. It's also why skill is a borderline non-factor in determining power. It's all about Levels, Gear (Items, OE), and Luck.

I have played several other MMO's, I took 5-6 years off of lineage to try out others. Not all of them, but I feel I hit all the big titles and some small ones.

Most of the PvP in other MMOs is fake. You never care about the other players, much less recognize very many on world chat. Mostly, even if there was some odd PvP system (ie Tera) there was nothing to lose! Its the sense of loss that L2 created. In WoW you cant even F-ing TALK to the other team!

Every game I've ever played struggles to find "balance". The L2 Store created a gear gap that didn't naturally exist in L2. Then there is the 3 lvl gap penalty that exist for some reason that I still cant fathom. The passive skill level increases should have dealt with any power structure tied to level that the developers wanted, yet they stuck this in there at some point to exacerbate this and it has created this problem. If these 2 issues are negated, then L2 becomes a game where PvP requires the MOST skill. Almost every class has more skills to use than you can fit on a stromo, and they are all for different situations and different reactions.

Olympiad is instanced PvP on a basic level, yes, but the outcome has perhaps the biggest impact on your clan/server than anything else you can do on your own or otherwise. Again, if you take the whales out of it, it is reasonably balanced IMO. As long as you are 101+ with "OK" or better gear, and not facing a 104+ person with a PvP set, and churched up broaches, you have the ability to have a great time and get good wins in Oly.

The Castles and CH's are bare bones?! While I feel we hardly scratched the full potential of the castles system, I don't recall any other game that even HAD a real castle you could take. I find the CHs remarkable as well. How many other titles teased these fixed residences and never delivered?

Now the movement/targeting system I will completely agree that it could be improved.
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Old 05-27-2017, 11:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Lineage III

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucksteak View Post
I have played several other MMO's, I took 5-6 years off of lineage to try out others. Not all of them, but I feel I hit all the big titles and some small ones.
Finding this hard to believe...

Quote:
Most of the PvP in other MMOs is fake.
This literally makes no sense...

Quote:
You never care about the other players, much less recognize very many on world chat. Mostly, even if there was some odd PvP system (ie Tera) there was nothing to lose! Its the sense of loss that L2 created. In WoW you cant even F-ing TALK to the other team!
Because eBay on a massive scale, completely destroying the game economy and giving the company running the game incentive to turn it into a massive pay to win environment is "real," is "caring about other players," and "recognizing those other players in world chat?"

Or do you mean the constant cesspool of vulgarities and insults that permeates world chat on the NCWest servers? Do you only play L2 in your dreams, where the experience is a social utopia? Let me guess... You're Swedish?

WoW is a faction-based game, like Dark Age of Camelot. WoW's Faction system is almost as old as the MMORPG genre itself. Why are you crying about it? That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's PvP is 1,000% more Skill Based and certainly 500% more balanced than Lineage II.

And WoW isn't the only game on the market, for that matter...

Quote:
Every game I've ever played struggles to find "balance".
That's kind of the point. The issue isn't the fact that other games have imbalances. The issue is that other games are about 100x as reactive to those issues as the L2 Developers, who seem intent on exacerbating it as a means to extract money out of power-hungry players.

There's a huge difference in philosophy there, and how imbalances are dealt with. Lineage II developers literally don't deal with imbalances, at all, for the most part.

Quote:
The L2 Store created a gear gap that didn't naturally exist in L2. Then there is the 3 lvl gap penalty that exist for some reason that I still cant fathom.
The Gracia-era changes to damage penalty aren't an issue in isolation. It became an issue when players were allowed to stack all sorts of defensive gear (which is out of the monetary reach of most players, unless they eBay), and the level cap was raised to obsurd levels. Back then, it was not hard to get to level 79 and eliminate that penalty, and any active player could largely maintain that, unless they took an extended break. These days, it's hard to keep up unless you're investing continuously, since the XP rates have a built-in handicap integrated to account for XP Runes (basically, you need XP runes to get XP rates comparable to what we used to get at top end levels, back in the day).

Quote:
The passive skill level increases should have dealt with any power structure tied to level that the developers wanted, yet they stuck this in there at some point to exacerbate this and it has created this problem. If these 2 issues are negated, then L2 becomes a game where PvP requires the MOST skill. Almost every class has more skills to use than you can fit on a stromo, and they are all for different situations and different reactions.

Olympiad is instanced PvP on a basic level, yes, but the outcome has perhaps the biggest impact on your clan/server than anything else you can do on your own or otherwise. Again, if you take the whales out of it, it is reasonably balanced IMO. As long as you are 101+ with "OK" or better gear, and not facing a 104+ person with a PvP set, and churched up broaches, you have the ability to have a great time and get good wins in Oly.

The Castles and CH's are bare bones?! While I feel we hardly scratched the full potential of the castles system, I don't recall any other game that even HAD a real castle you could take. I find the CHs remarkable as well. How many other titles teased these fixed residences and never delivered?

Now the movement/targeting system I will completely agree that it could be improved.
There's just so much wrong in here... Wishful thinking. Hope. Euphoric hallucinations...

This game is unfixable at this point... There are two issues:

1. There aren't enough players to really balance the game out well, and the influx of what new players do show up is very low. You may be assuming that the game will see a rush of new/returning players if they just did these two things, but I doubt it. That's not the lifecycle of MMORPGs these days. Games don't just rise from the ashes, these days. They whither along until they finally die off. FFXIV was the exception, not the rule.

2. Too much of what has caused imbalances in the game are the result of real-money investment in the game. This makes it difficult for NCSoft to "Gear Reset" the game to restore balance. That's basically what they'd need to do to fix the game. Introducing another gear grade isn't going to work, as long as lower grade OE'd gear remains as good as it is. They'd need to do something like "GoD 2.0." I'm not sure an update of that scale is worth it given the current player base. Players are no longer playing for content, they're playing (and paying) for power.

How is NCSoft going to justify obsoleting anything that someone paying $100+ for via L2Store shenanigans?

Olympiad was never balanced. It was imbalanced from Day One. How long have you been playing L2?

Castles and CHs in this game are incredibly barebones. The only thing remarkable is the fact that you call them remarkable.

The game is showing it's age, yet you act like it was just released yesterday with futuristic systems ;-)

The PvP is terrible. The movement is terrible. There is no balance. It's a complete P2W Invest-Fest. The content is beyond lackluster. It's a PvE leveling treadmill masquerading as a PvP game to keep high paying PvP Power Grabbers in the game... Though, I'd argue NCSoft doesn't need to try too hard, as they've invested so much that they've basically chained themselves to the game.

If the game was as good as you're pretending it is, then it would not be starving for players, and on the verge of yet another server merge... It would be very alive, because those players who quit and moved on wouldn't have seen any alternatives that could replace it - and come back. I think you people take yourselves too seriously - you "I tried to quit but ended up back, cause nothing can replace L2..." people. For every one of you, there are about 150 more who had no issues going to another game. Clearly, it wasn't as remarkable to them than it was to you... right? The player numbers speak for themselves, and are - IMO - a lot more telling than your own personal anecdotes.

Finally, I'm not going to argue about details that even a legally blind person can clearly see. That's just you deluding yourself.
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Old 05-30-2017, 10:17 AM   #25
Chucksteak
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Default Re: Lineage III

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenshero View Post
Finding this hard to believe...


This literally makes no sense...


Because eBay on a massive scale, completely destroying the game economy and giving the company running the game incentive to turn it into a massive pay to win environment is "real," is "caring about other players," and "recognizing those other players in world chat?"

Or do you mean the constant cesspool of vulgarities and insults that permeates world chat on the NCWest servers? Do you only play L2 in your dreams, where the experience is a social utopia? Let me guess... You're Swedish?

WoW is a faction-based game, like Dark Age of Camelot. WoW's Faction system is almost as old as the MMORPG genre itself. Why are you crying about it? That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's PvP is 1,000% more Skill Based and certainly 500% more balanced than Lineage II.

And WoW isn't the only game on the market, for that matter...


That's kind of the point. The issue isn't the fact that other games have imbalances. The issue is that other games are about 100x as reactive to those issues as the L2 Developers, who seem intent on exacerbating it as a means to extract money out of power-hungry players.

There's a huge difference in philosophy there, and how imbalances are dealt with. Lineage II developers literally don't deal with imbalances, at all, for the most part.



The Gracia-era changes to damage penalty aren't an issue in isolation. It became an issue when players were allowed to stack all sorts of defensive gear (which is out of the monetary reach of most players, unless they eBay), and the level cap was raised to obsurd levels. Back then, it was not hard to get to level 79 and eliminate that penalty, and any active player could largely maintain that, unless they took an extended break. These days, it's hard to keep up unless you're investing continuously, since the XP rates have a built-in handicap integrated to account for XP Runes (basically, you need XP runes to get XP rates comparable to what we used to get at top end levels, back in the day).


There's just so much wrong in here... Wishful thinking. Hope. Euphoric hallucinations...

This game is unfixable at this point... There are two issues:

1. There aren't enough players to really balance the game out well, and the influx of what new players do show up is very low. You may be assuming that the game will see a rush of new/returning players if they just did these two things, but I doubt it. That's not the lifecycle of MMORPGs these days. Games don't just rise from the ashes, these days. They whither along until they finally die off. FFXIV was the exception, not the rule.

2. Too much of what has caused imbalances in the game are the result of real-money investment in the game. This makes it difficult for NCSoft to "Gear Reset" the game to restore balance. That's basically what they'd need to do to fix the game. Introducing another gear grade isn't going to work, as long as lower grade OE'd gear remains as good as it is. They'd need to do something like "GoD 2.0." I'm not sure an update of that scale is worth it given the current player base. Players are no longer playing for content, they're playing (and paying) for power.

How is NCSoft going to justify obsoleting anything that someone paying $100+ for via L2Store shenanigans?

Olympiad was never balanced. It was imbalanced from Day One. How long have you been playing L2?

Castles and CHs in this game are incredibly barebones. The only thing remarkable is the fact that you call them remarkable.

The game is showing it's age, yet you act like it was just released yesterday with futuristic systems ;-)

The PvP is terrible. The movement is terrible. There is no balance. It's a complete P2W Invest-Fest. The content is beyond lackluster. It's a PvE leveling treadmill masquerading as a PvP game to keep high paying PvP Power Grabbers in the game... Though, I'd argue NCSoft doesn't need to try too hard, as they've invested so much that they've basically chained themselves to the game.

If the game was as good as you're pretending it is, then it would not be starving for players, and on the verge of yet another server merge... It would be very alive, because those players who quit and moved on wouldn't have seen any alternatives that could replace it - and come back. I think you people take yourselves too seriously - you "I tried to quit but ended up back, cause nothing can replace L2..." people. For every one of you, there are about 150 more who had no issues going to another game. Clearly, it wasn't as remarkable to them than it was to you... right? The player numbers speak for themselves, and are - IMO - a lot more telling than your own personal anecdotes.

Finally, I'm not going to argue about details that even a legally blind person can clearly see. That's just you deluding yourself.
I'm going to cherry pick, mostly due to a lot of this being "like, our opinion, man"

The topic, was how I felt a Lineage III could be a great title if done correctly with what I thought were the good points of L2. That being said, several if not all of what I thought was good about L2 is from the game in its form before the class merges took place. I don't disagree with everything you said, but I think you are overly focused on the details as they currently are, and I am referring to the highlights and potentials of what was and could be.

Instanced PvP is fake, faction based PvP, is fake. Yes I know Oly is instanced, but the reward for winning is the very real and awesome Hero status, being singled out as the best of your class on the server with insane skills and benefits to boot. If there is no risk or reward, there is no point, and thus I consider it fake.

Pertaining to castles and CH's please provide an example of someone doing these better? Not rhetorically, I actually cant think of anything.

NC can delete or remove any item they want at any point in time. This is carefully built into the EULA. They sell you a "service" of giving you Ncoin to do with as you please (or something like that). What ever you do with the Ncoin is not covered or protected or even owned by the consumer. The justification is simple, "Sorry, we ****** up and caused thousands of players to leave our platform." OMG how amazing would that QQ fest be? It might not a great business decision, but its what I would do as I think it would be hilarious and I don't own or operate a business. If, and a giant IF, a large number of whales quit due to a move like this, L2 in its current form would instantly get better.
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