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Old 07-21-2012, 06:22 AM   #81
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

But you agree with me on bottomless?

Stop embarrasing yourself and read the entire post.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:02 AM   #82
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Smittie View Post
But you agree with me on bottomless?
I totaly agree w/ you on this! (I also forgot to double click "L" on "totally", don't forget to mention that on your next post, This would definately "show" me.

On-topic now... Still waiting for a valid, consistent & solidified argument.



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Old 07-21-2012, 10:04 AM   #83
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

It's useless to argue with blind people. You can tell GOD doesn't exist to someone and show clear proof science is the explanation to everything, but the believers will come out and say they have no proof that GOD doesn't exist without actual evidence to back the believers argument.

We have one side showing facts, numbers, issues, the other simply denies what we say by saying it's wrong and it is so without backing up with any facts. I've shown all facts, it's up to you to believe them or not. I'm sure that if NCsoft did anything about it and balanced this cleanse thing, you'd blindly follow their logic and change your opinion on the matter, as usual.

YourBad, you just prooved my point. What is important IS spike/burst dmg, which can only be given by classes with stacked up gear/crit dmg multipliers and GOOD DPS to begin with, classes relying on debuffs to do most their damage DO NOT have that.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:33 AM   #84
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Healers have so many cleanse capabilities, with very low re-use, w/ 2 cleanse almost spamable.
It is rather oxymorous that a healer can cleanse any 5-10min re-use skill relatively easy every 1 second.

Classes that are heavily depended on debuffs like wynn, have crazy long re-use on their skills...
Using for example "dimensional binding" that has a 4-5min re-use means almost nothing in mass pvp...
Marks & exiles in party vs party pvp are almost useless Vs a good / auto healer
Everything is instantly cleansed...

I still can't understand why the long re-use on debuff skills in this game.
Since the implementation of "diminishing marginal returns" there is no point to make some classes useless by giving long re-uses to their skills...


Coming from the most overpowered olympiad farming class.

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Healers are here to heal, and cleanse. There are also debuffs with low reuse that are of greater importance than your marks, I don't bother cleansing marks other than Trick. I don't bother with Armor Destruction because it'll be right back on the person whom I cleanse just as fast as I can cleanse it & there's plenty other debuffs of the same Tier. Disables are a whole nother story.

Have you ever thought to have a tank stun the healers? That works, since stun completely disables the person. Justice Punishment also silences healers, and Mark Of Trick also has the "same" effect practically.

Have you ever thought to Dimensional Bind the healers or exile the healers instead of DDs/Tank/Iss? There's a huge difference between DEBUFFS and DISABLES. Disables are definently something you want to use on healers, otherwise they'll get cleansed. As to where debuffs can and should be thrown freely. Rethink this through, there's plenty of ways to bring down players and healers, if you want PVP to last 2 seconds I highly suggest rerolling a mage, making a +20 weapon and 1 shotting everything.. GL
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:47 AM   #85
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Have you ever thought to Dimensional Bind the healers or exile the healers instead of DDs/Tank/Iss?
Doesn't work as you imply. These debuffs were meant to be used AGAISNT healers, but a 2 good healers don't fall for this cheap trick. Plus, you can always Brez them and say goodbye to the 5minute re-use dimensional binding. Also, stoping dimensional binding is VERY easy.

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Old 07-21-2012, 02:41 PM   #86
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Smittie View Post
But you agree with me on bottomless?

Stop embarrasing yourself and read the entire post.
I only quoted the part relevant to my reply, which was completely off-topic from the rest of your post. Don't be a hypocrite, you're bad at that, even.
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Old 07-22-2012, 01:09 AM   #87
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

Could it be that ppl who think they cant kill ppl without a ton of debuffs are:

* Badly geared, and wouldnt be able to kill ppl anyway.
* Play against automated toons, that will cleanse anything and everything in the blink of an eye?
* Thinking that healers are just standing there in the middle of pvp, never getting hit, never having to move around, never having to heal, but simply just cleansing and having ppl spam cp pots/draco pots?

And once again, I ask, what are these vital debuffs Yunalesca? You cant even name one?

And as far as you guys making a case against cleanse and asking for, I dunno, longer cooldown or a rework of the entire skill. I have seen no good argument from any of you, nor have I seen any post where anyone state what debuffs are so vital to your class being able to kill anything, that it would require this change.

Stop being hypocrits and just come out and say you want to nerf healers already. It's ok, I will understand.
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:42 AM   #88
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Smittie View Post
Could it be that ppl who think they cant kill ppl without a ton of debuffs are:

* Badly geared, and wouldnt be able to kill ppl anyway.
* Play against automated toons, that will cleanse anything and everything in the blink of an eye?
* Thinking that healers are just standing there in the middle of pvp, never getting hit, never having to move around, never having to heal, but simply just cleansing and having ppl spam cp pots/draco pots?

And once again, I ask, what are these vital debuffs Yunalesca? You cant even name one?

And as far as you guys making a case against cleanse and asking for, I dunno, longer cooldown or a rework of the entire skill. I have seen no good argument from any of you, nor have I seen any post where anyone state what debuffs are so vital to your class being able to kill anything, that it would require this change.

Stop being hypocrits and just come out and say you want to nerf healers already. It's ok, I will understand.
Not that I care about your opinion(cause you lack any whatsoever),but,If you bother reading, u'll find plenty examples. w/ actual numbers and skill descriptions.

Once again, learn to read before posting any of this rediculous cr@p that you so freely throw at us.

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Old 07-22-2012, 07:29 AM   #89
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

What do you mean I have no opinion.

I think its fairly clear I dont want you to nerf healers, which contrary to the belief of most posters in this thread, is not just a cleanse bot.

I dont understand why you guys want to nerf healers cleanse, but I'm fairly sure none of you have played healer in pvp, or you would realize there is more to it than just cleansing.

If you want to though, feel free to go back to covering your ears and screaming at the top of your lungs "you have no opinion".
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:25 AM   #90
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Smittie View Post
Could it be that ppl who think they cant kill ppl without a ton of debuffs are:

* Badly geared, and wouldnt be able to kill ppl anyway.
* Play against automated toons, that will cleanse anything and everything in the blink of an eye?
* Thinking that healers are just standing there in the middle of pvp, never getting hit, never having to move around, never having to heal, but simply just cleansing and having ppl spam cp pots/draco pots?

And once again, I ask, what are these vital debuffs Yunalesca? You cant even name one?

And as far as you guys making a case against cleanse and asking for, I dunno, longer cooldown or a rework of the entire skill. I have seen no good argument from any of you, nor have I seen any post where anyone state what debuffs are so vital to your class being able to kill anything, that it would require this change.

Stop being hypocrits and just come out and say you want to nerf healers already. It's ok, I will understand.
With the old Cleanse automated toons wouldn't be able to do that. The fact that it's even possible to spam Radiant purge instantly via a program and never have it really impact your resource (mana) to any mentionable extent is in itself a huge design issue. The devs aren't oblivious to what's going on. They should have taken that into consideration.

The skill needs either a longer cooldown or a significantly higher mana cost to discourage cleanse spamming. Like I said, this isn't the first game with this issue. They had to revamp purges in WoW for the same exact reason/problem.

There is simply no deficit to cleanse spamming right now, so healers skillessly spam it simply because it's a free, almost endless cast and it's pretty obvious that most classes rely on their debuffs to perform optimally. There is no thought involved, it's just habit.

Gear has nothing to do with it. There are lots of factors that go into scoring kills, which is why your whole "people still die" B.S. doesn't work here.

Most PvP groups have two healers so I dunno why you keep going on about this idea that we think people stand around in PvP doing nothing. I'm pretty sure I PvP a lot more than you do yet you feel you are an Oracle when it comes to these matters.

Summoners can't retrieve marks unless the Marks are there. If the Healer cleanses the 2 marks off before the last one goes on it's completely miffs the skill. Daggers have skills that are only available when they land certain skills, like their bleed. If the Bleed gets cleansed off, the other damage skill isn't available. Some classes melee damage is balanced around debuffs and triggers, like Critical Wound type skills that allow daggers to do better melee damage because we all know daggers are the weakest melee weapons in the game and everyone basically runs around with Chant of Protection built into their buffs... Mages are balanced around their Attribute Debuff tied to Elemental Spike, their weakest nuke. It takes 3 nukes to stack up (if no resists, and you're doing it with your weakest spell) and and if it's cleansed off then you run the risk of getting your nukes overristed by attribute defense on the targets. Since you PvP MOBs it may not be a factor to you, but this all makes a difference in "real PvP."

I've already stated this. You're just too daft to actually understand it.

This is nothing but the reverse of the issue we had with Soul Hound buff stealing back when. It was a problem for the same reason, but regarding buffs. PvP is balanced assuming your have buffs. This is just a bit different. Classes' performance in PvE and PvP is still balanced assuming they can land their debuffs. Making it so easy to wipe everything off with virtually no downside to the healer (as far as cooldown, mana cost, or even a longer cast that causes them to make conscious decisions on what should be cast at that moment - since Progressive and Balance Heal are almost insta-cast and most of them are using a lot of Panics in PvP, anyways) is a legitimate concern.

If Radiant Purge worked similar to Cancellation (% Chance to remove a set number of debuffs), it would be much less of an issue.

This is not about nerfing healers. This is about balance considerations. The fact that you don't want to get "nerfed" frankly does not matter to me.

Last edited by Trenshero; 07-22-2012 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:47 AM   #91
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Yunalesca View Post
Doesn't work as you imply. These debuffs were meant to be used AGAISNT healers, but a 2 good healers don't fall for this cheap trick. Plus, you can always Brez them and say goodbye to the 5minute re-use dimensional binding. Also, stoping dimensional binding is VERY easy.
This.

Almost every decent PvP groupis running 2 healers. How are you going to Exile two healers? Run with two summoners? They aren't going to be standing on top of each other to get Mass Exiled, that's PvP 101 even DDs know not to do this. You will Bind or Exile one healer, the other healer will Radiant Purge it (if a Tree doesn't do it) and you're back to square one. Balance Heal is almost instant. Progressive and Panic Heals cast super fast. Everyone has Brezes, and there's a second Healer and Iss Enchanter that can Battle Rez. Both Healers will likely have Salvation to start off.

Depending on your group setup, they may even be wearing Heavy Armor with Knight Harmony.

No one thinks healers are "cure bots" by definition. They simply have a ton at their disposal and all of that comes with literally no thought or consideration involved in when and how they spam it. Radiant Purge is pretty much a free cast with no cooldown or legitimate mana cost given what it does.

And healers don't have to purge EVERYTHING. That's part of the issue. There are a lot of Class/Race skills that also clear debuffs or render people invulnurable. It all compounds into one huge mess and creates class imbalances where they shouldn't exist. The reason why summoners are so good has nothing to do with their debuffs, but with how much damage they can take before they die (which is usually less than most other classes, and thus they win by attrition).
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #92
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

Thanks for assuming I pvp mobs...

Lets just stop pretending you know how often I pvp, or even what clan I'm currently in.

I play a healer in a pvp clan atm, "real pvp" is not something new to me, nor was it even when I was in my previous clan, a pve clan.

Ppl used to argue that pvp was over too fast back in the day, when elements were introduced, mostly due difference in gear, the haves and the havenots.

Now it actually lasts quite some time, due to healers actually being able to keep ppl alive, and being able to remove debuffs when needed.

And thats what you and your friends want to take away? Even with a 1 second cooldown cleanse, and multiple ways of rendering targets immune to debuffs, people are still dying in pvp. Perhaps mostly you and your friends, but maybe you can watch a few pvp movies and learn how the other side does it? Instead of trying to nerf the one thing that actually makes pvp something that isnt over in 10 seconds?

Could a summoner coordinate with the other dds AND the tank, so the 1st healer has to defend itself instead of cleansing the one that just got exiled? And while trying to do so, 1st healer gets target locked by the tank? Could they try any strategy at all? Any form of coordination? Do they not have any form of chat, or teamspeak/ventrilo?

Or are the dd's in this thread mindless automatons spamming next target and debuffs? Coz that wont really work in any "real pvp", and is not even advisable in pve.

How much of a nerf would you be asking for? Double the 1 sec cooldown of Cleanse to be 2 seconds? Or do you require even longer cooldowns, so your dds can work under "optimal conditions"? How much must we nerf healer conditions, so the dds can feel good about themselves again?

Call me stupid all you want, or daft. But dont try for a second to make me think I dont know your agenda, lol. It's quite clear.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:18 PM   #93
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Thanks for assuming I pvp mobs...

Lets just stop pretending you know how often I pvp, or even what clan I'm currently in.

I play a healer in a pvp clan atm, "real pvp" is not something new to me, nor was it even when I was in my previous clan, a pve clan.

Ppl used to argue that pvp was over too fast back in the day, when elements were introduced, mostly due difference in gear, the haves and the havenots.

Now it actually lasts quite some time, due to healers actually being able to keep ppl alive, and being able to remove debuffs when needed.

And thats what you and your friends want to take away? Even with a 1 second cooldown cleanse, and multiple ways of rendering targets immune to debuffs, people are still dying in pvp. Perhaps mostly you and your friends, but maybe you can watch a few pvp movies and learn how the other side does it? Instead of trying to nerf the one thing that actually makes pvp something that isnt over in 10 seconds?

Could a summoner coordinate with the other dds AND the tank, so the 1st healer has to defend itself instead of cleansing the one that just got exiled? And while trying to do so, 1st healer gets target locked by the tank? Could they try any strategy at all? Any form of coordination? Do they not have any form of chat, or teamspeak/ventrilo?

Or are the dd's in this thread mindless automatons spamming next target and debuffs? Coz that wont really work in any "real pvp", and is not even advisable in pve.

How much of a nerf would you be asking for? Double the 1 sec cooldown of Cleanse to be 2 seconds? Or do you require even longer cooldowns, so your dds can work under "optimal conditions"? How much must we nerf healer conditions, so the dds can feel good about themselves again?

Call me stupid all you want, or daft. But dont try for a second to make me think I dont know your agenda, lol. It's quite clear.
OMG... What can't you understand already? Healer cleanse is making Classes that are Heavily depended on debuffs, obsolete in mass pvp...

There is no agenda whatsover, You are just too stubborn to admit something already known to all high lvl players, that choose not to Have wynn in party.

Name me one top Party in your server that has wynn and rolls everything.

In my server everyone is making fun of the Hero summoner... cause he has absolutely no use outside of oly. (full blessed epics / +15 R weapon / +10 skills...)

PS: Still w8ing for an actual argument... rather than disagreement from default.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:56 PM   #94
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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And once again, I ask, what are these vital debuffs Yunalesca? You cant even name one?
So when i said dimensional binding, you didn't recognize this as a skill/vital debuff?

Seems you lack the knowlege of skill names to begin with and yet boast about how we wanna nerf healer. Are you still pvping lowbies?

If you had understood correctly, nobody wants to nerf the healer, it's the CLEANSE that we want to have nerfed. Remove debuff talisman 600 mana, this too screws up and it's not from healer.

I dunno why you keep saying you loose time/heal when u cleanse someone, my party healers keep everybody cleansed and healed, only the burst DPS is what kills us. I'd expect a retail healer to do much better.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:29 AM   #95
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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PS: Still w8ing for an actual argument... rather than disagreement from default.
Same.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:33 AM   #96
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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So when i said dimensional binding, you didn't recognize this as a skill/vital debuff?

Seems you lack the knowlege of skill names to begin with and yet boast about how we wanna nerf healer. Are you still pvping lowbies?

If you had understood correctly, nobody wants to nerf the healer, it's the CLEANSE that we want to have nerfed. Remove debuff talisman 600 mana, this too screws up and it's not from healer.

I dunno why you keep saying you loose time/heal when u cleanse someone, my party healers keep everybody cleansed and healed, only the burst DPS is what kills us. I'd expect a retail healer to do much better.
Odd, I was expecting retail summoners to do much better, and cry less...

I guess the problem you see is that your healer has 0 cast time on its cleanse, not sure how he/she gets that, but she must have some secret.

Maybe we can just nerf your healer friend and leave everyone else alone?

Seems you lack the knowledge of how to kill ppl in pvp and just wanna nerf the first thing that comes to mind...
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:00 AM   #97
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

I'm not a retail summoner and i'm definitely not crying about my class.

Dunno if you read the word cleanse there that was spoken for over 20 times. I'm also glad to say you are wrong because you're the one who lacks the knowledge to kill people in pvp, you're the healer afterall, you know jack of killing people. And you also seem to know jack of cleansing and healing people, so i'm definitely doing much better my job, even tho half of classes can't properly use their debuffs
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:03 AM   #98
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

Ppl actually dont die much in my parties, if they do it's usually coz they didnt gear up properly, I cant be expected to keep 2 shots alive.

Clearly ppl die in pvp, with or without debuffs on them.

Me playing a healer in pvp atm doesnt mean I have only ever played healer in pvp, once again ppl in this thread assume.

You seem to think your class is all about debuffs.

Just answer me this: What, in your opinion, should the cooldown on cleanse be?

Keep in mind, rez has a cooldown of 16 seconds, if that helps.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #99
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

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Originally Posted by Ninja Proxy View Post
Name me one top Party in your server that has wynn and rolls everything.

In my server everyone is making fun of the Hero summoner... cause he has absolutely no use outside of oly. (full blessed epics / +15 R weapon / +10 skills...)
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Odd, I was expecting retail summoners to do much better, and cry less...
Not quite getting it... are you all suggesting that summoners were ever welcomed into top PvP parties on retail servers? (Well, except for being Dark Mystic heroes in Anakim transform in H5, and except for being the Queen buff providers in archer parties in C4?) Have L2 summoners ever performed well as summoners in mass PvP?

Or was it all the healers' fault?
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:50 PM   #100
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Default Re: Aeore Healer cleanse

Ya, is all our faults, we be da new evilz of the world.

Should we remove cleanse all together.

Or maybe just remove debuffs?
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