Official Bot Behavior and Detection Thread

[Mistryl]

The use of third-party software to automate gameplay (including chat and private store) is a bannable offense. Additionally, the purchase or sale of in-game assets for real world currency is a violation of the User Agreement and a punishable offense.

This thread is the official place to discuss bot behavior and detection methods. The purpose of this thread is to better disseminate information about illegal third-party programs to help players in finding, killing, and/or avoiding them, and to alert NCsoft as necessary to new behavior.

Please see the original Official Bot Behavior and Detection Method Thread for reference.

Please see this thread for a summary of posts by NCsoft staff regarding our stance on User Agreement violations.

Remember to send any specific reports of suspected wrongdoing to the GM team through the "Ask a Question" link in the Support Center rather than posting them in this thread.

Please see the points below for more details on this topic.

User Agreement Violations: Frequently Asked Questions

How do I report a player I suspect of botting?

If you are in game, simply type:

/gm <player name> appears to be a bot.

Be sure to spell the player's name exactly so the team can take a look. If you are reporting many players, please list all of the names in your petition. If you think your report may be too detailed for a petition, please use the"Ask a Question" link in the Support Center to send in a report.


Do you only investigate bots based on reports sent in from players?

No. Every report that players can send us is invaluable, but the GM team also uses their own detection methods to find and investigate users who are possibly violating the User Agreement.


I reported a bot [time frame] ago, and they are still playing. Why did you ignore my report?

Every bot report results in an investigation and these reports are never ignored. An investigation of a player who may be using a bot program does take some time.


I received an auto-response to my email/petition and it was closed. Was my report even considered?

Again, every report is read and results in an investigation. An auto-response does not mean that the report is not important or was dismissed without following up on the reported player, but instead indicates that no further information is needed. We appreciate every report that you send to us!


Why are there no GMs online when I use /gmlist? Does that mean you’re not investigating any bots or petitions?

The GM team does not always make themselves visible. Even if there are no names in the /gmlist, there are still members of the team providing service and investigating reports of suspected violations.


Does NCsoft have a deal with the adena sellers/bots/farmers?

No. Any accusation that NCsoft supports or endorses violations of the User Agreement is false and inappropriate for the official message board.


Can you provide “proof” that you are taking action against accounts, such as names or numbers of banned accounts?

Very rarely will NCsoft provide numbers of banned accounts. The last number shared with the players was over 70,000 accounts in the last year. We will never publish the names of banned accounts or characters due to privacy concerns.


Why can’t I talk about botting/selling adena on the official message board? Are you trying to censor me?

The forum policy asking players not to discuss these violations on the message board is not intended as a form of censorship. These discussions tend to be circular and more often than not result in accusations and arguments, so the policy was put in place to prevent that from happening.

We do understand about the desire to share concerns and information about this issue, so we ask that this thread be used for that purpose.


Do you know about the bots in the starting villages?

Yes, the GM team regularly checks the starting villages and investigates players reported in those areas.


Do you know about the ____ program?

Please remember to send any reports about specific programs through the "Ask a Question" link in the Support Center – do not post the names of these programs. We are aware of most programs in use, but please send us any additional information you feel might be helpful.


Do you know about raid boss farmers?

Any and all reports of players using third-party software for whatever purpose is investigated. In regards to players hunting raid boss monsters, all players are welcome to fight them on a first-come first-serve basis. Simply being first to kill the boss mobs once they spawn or repeatedly killing them is not a violation. However, using bot programs to fight the monster(s) or selling the dropped items for real-life currency are violations, and we do take strict disciplinary action against that type of behavior.


How often do you ban/what methods do you use for detection/what is your procedure for taking action against an account?

We cannot share details of the methods the GM team uses when investigating an account. We don’t want to jeopardize our efforts to remove these bad users from our service by making them aware of our processes.

-------------------------------------------------

Please continue to use this thread to alert NCsoft of any information you feel will help in our research and investigations.

In particular, we welcome reports of specific locations where these violations might be interfering with your gameplay. If you are reporting an area in game that seems to be especially problematic, please give us as many details as possible, including the server you are playing on. (No names of characters, please!)

Thank you for your time and concern; we appreciate all of your reports and feedback!

[Greywolf005]

Most infested areas on Sieghardt are as follows:

Catacomb of Dark Oman, Astetics Necro, Witches Necro, Saints Necro and lastly Wall of Argos. Those are in order by infestation from most to least.

[gerf]

Hindermith: Devastated Castle - a good 20 bot trains running around there since release of C4. Reported more times that I can keep track of, good 80% of them force log when attempted to train them.

What about raid boss farmers who dont use 3rd party programs to take down the raid bosses but used programs to level up to levels they are now? Since they are no longer botted characters and farm the raid bosses 24/7 they are now legit? Three different clans on hindermith that fall into this category.

[Hammered]

[ QUOTE ]
Most infested areas on Sieghardt are as follows:

Catacomb of Dark Oman, Astetics Necro, Witches Necro, Saints Necro and lastly Wall of Argos. Those are in order by infestation from most to least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Witches still that bad? I know it was a few weeks ago. Haven't been able to play on Sieg for about 12 days due to the lag but I logged in to pull my toons out of Witches and counted three (yes three !!!) non-stun rooms that weren't botted. I almost fell outta my chair.

I know what you mean tho, the first rooms of Witches are completely unavailable. One group has been in there for at least three months. Petitioned them 8 times before I realised that the horse was well and truly flogged. Ascetics is exactly the same. A GM on a silent move character could ban about 120 accounts on a walk through those two dungeons alone.

As to the comment about GMs checking out starter villages, I can only say that I do not believe you Mystril. I have been playing on Teon for the last 12 days or so (due to lag on Sieghardt) and I have NEVER seen such a high level of bot activity.

Just visit DE village and you will see it swarming with dwarves in bronze armour all following the same waypoints. It is SO obvious that I don't see why you have to wait for "players" to be reported. If your GMs really do visit these places then I'm afraid they either need better eyes or to be given more powers to initaite their own bot investigations rather than waiting for a report.

Venture to Gludin and you will see the same waypointed dwarves delevelling on guards. There were so many that you could not even see the guard anymore.

So I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.

[ProdaznayaShkura]

I noticed that Hot Springs gets more and more bot groups . Interesting note - looks like these bot groups are filled with once legit characters because their names are not gibberish or typical "lovekaka123" chinese farmer names . Thats on Sieghardt .

[zeekdog2003]

My bro asked me this question the other day. Why dont they(nc soft) just go to the place where everyone else is getting the illegal progams and get them too. That way they would be able to break the code and/or understand there method of creation?. I told him.......(i'll censore my self thank you )

[Krissa]

I have the following questions for NCsoft:

1. Do you use players' reports in your decisions to ban some particulars accounts? Or do you only use to find some bot activity patterns that don't get caught by your current automatic methods? I mean, would it help to report all the bot parties a player encounters, or just reporting the ones that show the behavior not yet reported by the player would be enough?

2. If some bot parties are disrupting the game of a live player (for example, farming quest mobs, or occupying all the space in the area), can the player expect that a report can change the situation in the meaningful time frame (say, in less than 2 hours)? Or shall the player assume that dealing with this situation is not the responsibility of NCsoft employees?

3. The Lineage II has already been here for 2 years, but the problem of pro farmers botting is not yet solved. Is the goal of your figth with bots a complete eradication of pro farmers' bots (making their expenses more than their income), or do you try to balance the legit players' interests with the additional money flow you are getting with this regular banning of pro farmers' accounts?

4. The "User Agreement Violations: Frequently Asked Questions" part of the post does not discuss (does not even mention) buying in-game assets for real-life currency as a punishable violation, so making the impression that doing this is absolutely safe. How come?

[Sent]

Just my 2 cents, your efforts to combat bots have been extremely ineffective. If you're grading, that's a big F for result, maybe a C for effort.

I realize the're have been bans and such, but bots infest the map. I've been playing this game since open beta and it seems the problem gets worse as time goes on. They are litereally everywhere. In lowbie areas, in highlevel areas. Farmers/botters control major parts of highlevel content such a raid bosses and are moving on to main bosses such a Baium.

That bots can finish their 3rd class quests shows my just how ineffective your program is. The token effort is appreciated but unless NCsoft is serious and finds a way to disable the use of big 2, 3rd party programs, or makes the game easy enough for your avarage player to compete with the cheaters, it's a lost cause. While it might be fun for some to log in log in the pick flowers around Dion, it's is a competative and a PvP game. For the most part, the biggest users of farmers, 3rd party enhancements, and so on control the server.

The average player has no hope of ever competing or being a "hero", and I beleive each player wants a shot to have some meaning in game. You shouldn't have to turn into a cheat and risk your account getting banned to have some chance in a game.

As I said, we see the effort NCsoft, but the methods need a serious review because the tactics are too soft. The stance needs to be more hardcore. The 3rd party programs that allow you to bot a full party need to end. It's detection is possible, Dark Age of Camelot did so with the radar expoilt, Lineage ][ needs to do so also and end the PvP advantage that users of these programs have.

Only 1 person attending a bot party shouldn't be sufficient to keep them all from getting banned. Sitting AFK in a bot party should be bannable. The same 9 people doing nothing but exping for months on end should be banned. The same clan with the same people online 24 hours a day cleaning the map of raid bosses should be banned. This is not "normal" gamer behavior. It all has to do with botting, selling adena for profit, or leveling up top characters to dominate the high end PvP content.

[Mistryl]

I apologize, I'm not entirely sure that I understand the first question, but I can say that any reports you send us will help. The reports help us not only research specific players, but specific problem areas. For questions 2 and 3, our goal is to remove all users who violate the User Agreement as quickly as possible.

[ QUOTE ]
The "User Agreement Violations: Frequently Asked Questions" part of the post does not discuss (does not even mention) buying in-game assets for real-life currency as a punishable violation, so making the impression that doing this is absolutely safe. How come?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a "tip" currently on the web site and in the in-game message board that addresses this question:

The use of third-party software to automate gameplay (including chat and private store) is a bannable offense. Additionally, the purchase or sale of in-game assets for real world currency is a violation of the User Agreement and a punishable offense.

If there is any confusion on that statement, I can add it to the first post in this thread. Thank you!

[Inglorion1]

Perhaps I'm out of my mind but.....................

I have a suspicion that if they really wanted to, NC could get rid of all the bots over night and keep them out as well. So why don't they?

It occurs to me that there may be a really good reason for it, or a really bad reason depending on your point of view. Several of my clannies work for the same company I do, we sat down together at lunch one day and started a talking thread (lol) concerning the possible consequences to the game if the bots were gone over night. Basically the end of thread was, the games economy would go into cascade failure. It's already mucked up badly, but this would really tear it! The entire mat market would dissolve. Prices on everything would skyrocket out of control. Look at the mat availability right now on Bartz in Giran (for example). Most of the stores are selling mats gathered by bot parties. All of that would be gone. Right now if you wanted to craft something, there is a very good chance that, if you have the adena, you can pick up most (if not all) of the mats you need in Giran. Without that mat market, be ready to spend a long time getting the drops you need for that weapon or armor your looking for, a really long time! Now, I would not expect NC to agree or even acknowldge that what I'm saying here is true, in fact they might even deny it. That's ok though. The more we talked about it, the more we agreed that we would not want to be in their (NC) shoes. Trying to figure a way to get rid of this problem without creating an even larger problem as a result. I imagine this must give them nightmares. Try it yourself. Sit down and think about the problems that would arise and then try to come up with a way to get the job done and not destroy the game at the same time. If you can come up with a viable solution, you might want to send it to their support line. If it does work, they may just want to reward you for it.

Yes, I agree that the server would be empty, lag would be reduced and we wouldn't have to compete with the bots for the good hunting grounds. But is that worth having the games economy completley destroyed? They would probably have to dramatically bump the mat drop rate, but I doubt that even that would keep the game stable.

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm out of my mind but.....................

I have a suspicion that if they really wanted to, NC could get rid of all the bots over night and keep them out as well. So why don't they?

It occurs to me that there may be a really good reason for it, or a really bad reason depending on your point of view. Several of my clannies work for the same company I do, we sat down together at lunch one day and started a talking thread (lol) concerning the possible consequences to the game if the bots were gone over night. Basically the end of thread was, the games economy would go into cascade failure. It's already mucked up badly, but this would really tear it! The entire mat market would dissolve. Prices on everything would skyrocket out of control. Look at the mat availability right now on Bartz in Giran (for example). Most of the stores are selling mats gathered by bot parties. All of that would be gone. Right now if you wanted to craft something, there is a very good chance that, if you have the adena, you can pick up most (if not all) of the mats you need in Giran. Without that mat market, be ready to spend a long time getting the drops you need for that weapon or armor your looking for, a really long time! Now, I would not expect NC to agree or even acknowldge that what I'm saying here is true, in fact they might even deny it. That's ok though. The more we talked about it, the more we agreed that we would not want to be in their (NC) shoes. Trying to figure a way to get rid of this problem without creating an even larger problem as a result. I imagine this must give them nightmares. Try it yourself. Sit down and think about the problems that would arise and then try to come up with a way to get the job done and not destroy the game at the same time. If you can come up with a viable solution, you might want to send it to their support line. If it does work, they may just want to reward you for it.

Yes, I agree that the server would be empty, lag would be reduced and we wouldn't have to compete with the bots for the good hunting grounds. But is that worth having the games economy completley destroyed? They would probably have to dramatically bump the mat drop rate, but I doubt that even that would keep the game stable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice tinfoil hat theory but, do you honestly believe that NCNA sits around discussing the economy of the NA servers? I don't. I don't think they give a wet slap about it. They can't do anything to change it anyway. Everything comes down to what is going on in Korea.

[Inglorion1]

I know my post was a bit off topic for this thread. Sorry! Oh! and on Bartz? Sacrifce, Ascetics, Patriots, EV and Wall of Argos (my new favorite hunting groud). All loaded up with bots. One Bot party in EV was using a program that didn't recognize when a mob was already under attack so the bot party was KS'ing. The party was so large that even though my friend was able to do most of the damage he was unable to reach the drops for all the bots surrounding them. The bot party starting getting all his drops! That didn't last long, lol, took him the rest of the day to work off the bad Karma!

[Inglorion1]

Ummm, you might be surprised. Part of our conversation went into that area. If the games economy goes completly to hades, I doubt that many ppl will be wanting to play the game anymore. And that will affect profts for NC. Something they most assuredly are concerned with!

[Elrohir]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, you might be surprised. Part of our conversation went into that area. If the games economy goes completly to hades, I doubt that many ppl will be wanting to play the game anymore. And that will affect profts for NC. Something they most assuredly are concerned with!

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course they are concerned about profits but they can't change the mechanics of the game. Seriously, if all the bots were gone, it would be painful for a while but things would sort themselves. What is driving the demand for high quantities of mats and high-end gear? It's all of the botted up high level toons.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize, I'm not entirely sure that I understand the first question, but I can say that any reports you send us will help.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I were NCsoft, I would automatically detect almost all the botted accounts in a couple of hours after their creation. And for the most of these cases, no user reports or live GMs would be needed at all. Still, there could be perfectly valid reasons to postpone banning of these detected accounts even if your goal is remove them quickly (for example, if you do not want to disclose your main detection methods, and still need some proof that you can show to the parties concerned). My question was: is this the case, and if so, do you really need the reports about all the bots, or only about unusual ones?

[ QUOTE ]
For questions 2 and 3, our goal is to remove all users who violate the User Agreement as quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Question 2 is not about your goal, but about the player's expectations. Is it reasonable for the player to wait for GM interruption if the player reported that the suspected 3rd party program users (especially when they have already been detected as those by server-side software) do not leave any room to level or to do a quest?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "User Agreement Violations: Frequently Asked Questions" part of the post does not discuss (does not even mention) buying in-game assets for real-life currency as a punishable violation, so making the impression that doing this is absolutely safe. How come?

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a "tip" currently on the web site and in the in-game message board that addresses this question:
The use of third-party software to automate gameplay (including chat and private store) is a bannable offense. Additionally, the purchase or sale of in-game assets for real world currency is a violation of the User Agreement and a punishable offense.
If there is any confusion on that statement, I can add it to the first post in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but this statement alone is obviously not enough to manage the pro botters problem from the other side: the (illegal) demand for their illegally harvested in-game assets.

[Hammered]

I commented previously on the statement that GMs visit areas of the world looking for bots, and on my disbelief that it happens.

However, maybe you could answer as to how the situation encapsulated by the following two screenshots is happening, given your statement?

Piccy One

Piccy Two

That was on Teon, my temporary home until Sieghardt mysteriously unlags itself.

[Ratty]

I think many are forgetting what it was like Beta- C1 yes there was bot's but no where near as many, there where many more farmers than bots. If NCsoft was to get rid of all the bots, we'd just have more Farmers back and it is they that will stop the ecomony going to pot. Yes there would be a shock to the market but it would soon settle, farmers being controlled by people, so no longer do they see the mob behind the rock or over the hill, they hunt as we hunt. and many of the farmers would stay at the lower levels cos thats where they get more drops, so it would help the high end of the game too.

[Krissa]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes there would be a shock to the market but it would soon settle, farmers being controlled by people, so no longer do they see the mob behind the rock or over the hill, they hunt as we hunt.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some misconceptions about bot detection that should also be addressed in this thread

For example, there is nothing wrong in a legit farmer seeing the mob over the hill:

/target [Dion Grizzly]
/useskill Spoil

FTW.

[Z0idberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm out of my mind but.....................

I have a suspicion that if they really wanted to, NC could get rid of all the bots over night and keep them out as well. So why don't they?

It occurs to me that there may be a really good reason for it, or a really bad reason depending on your point of view. Several of my clannies work for the same company I do, we sat down together at lunch one day and started a talking thread (lol) concerning the possible consequences to the game if the bots were gone over night. Basically the end of thread was, the games economy would go into cascade failure. It's already mucked up badly, but this would really tear it! The entire mat market would dissolve. Prices on everything would skyrocket out of control. Look at the mat availability right now on Bartz in Giran (for example). Most of the stores are selling mats gathered by bot parties. All of that would be gone. Right now if you wanted to craft something, there is a very good chance that, if you have the adena, you can pick up most (if not all) of the mats you need in Giran. Without that mat market, be ready to spend a long time getting the drops you need for that weapon or armor your looking for, a really long time! Now, I would not expect NC to agree or even acknowldge that what I'm saying here is true, in fact they might even deny it. That's ok though. The more we talked about it, the more we agreed that we would not want to be in their (NC) shoes. Trying to figure a way to get rid of this problem without creating an even larger problem as a result. I imagine this must give them nightmares. Try it yourself. Sit down and think about the problems that would arise and then try to come up with a way to get the job done and not destroy the game at the same time. If you can come up with a viable solution, you might want to send it to their support line. If it does work, they may just want to reward you for it.

Yes, I agree that the server would be empty, lag would be reduced and we wouldn't have to compete with the bots for the good hunting grounds. But is that worth having the games economy completley destroyed? They would probably have to dramatically bump the mat drop rate, but I doubt that even that would keep the game stable.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way man, mats won't sell if the prices skyrocket because nobody will have enough adena to buy them...

Supply will always meet demand and it would encourage player trading rather than just sell staves and blades etc to shop and purchase adena off dodgy website when it's needed.

The economy in this game is designed exceptionally well to work without farmers, I think anyone that played beta would know this, trading with other players is a huge part of this game and so is buy / sell shops.

I think all the hero's on my server I've not once seen in a buy or sell shop and they're in top gear with highly enchanted weapons etc but good for them, they don't know what they're missing out on.. only annoying thing is when you get killed by a an extremely rich player (who you only see when they're griefing because they bot and buy their gear) that calls you a noob when really they are the noob because they couldn't accept the challenge of playing within the rules, this is a real pain especially after you've previously reported the same player in a 9 person bot train.

[Inglorion1]

/Agree