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Old 09-11-2006, 03:58 AM   #1
Bariat
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Default Viscious Stance is still useless!

Why in the world do they continue to have viscious stance in the game when it does absolutley nothing for critical hits whatsoever. I mean I maxed it out at lvl 66 and its still a negligable if not completely non factor for hunting with. It doesnt actually do ANYTHING! In fact it seems to cut down my actual crit rate to nearly none when i do have it active. Could someone tell me why its still in game, or maybe why NC hasnt maybe corrected a useless skill and have it actually do something besides suck up Skill Points! Maybe have it actually add 1 point to the crit rate on your stats for each level you actual get. Now that would be helpful.
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Old 09-11-2006, 03:58 AM   #2
MalineII
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Archer, right?

Vicious stance is a fixed-number increase - and consequently most noticable on PWs.

It also doesn't increase your critical rate, but rather critical power.
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Old 09-11-2006, 03:59 AM   #3
Bariat
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Yeah im an Hawkeye, is that a significant thing to Viscious Stance? And Besides if its improving my critical power, out of the Hundreds of times i checked it the differance in the damage ive seen on mobs is only a few double digit differance for the few times my crits land. I crit three times more often when i have VS off then when its on.
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Old 09-11-2006, 04:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Sorry, edited it in late. A bad habit. And I'm doing it again! Hold on.

Vicious stance adds a fixed total "PAtk during critical hit" - for example level 20 adds ~600 PAtk. This is not affected by buffs or soulshots. Now as an example, let's take a plainswalker with 500 PAtk and no buffs - they don't have crit damage passives, so naturally when they toggle on vicious stance, when they crit it will be as if they had 800 PAtk - that's a pretty huge increase.

But if you take an archer, who might have already around 2k PAtk, then adding 600 doesn't seem so big. Those 600 also aren't affected by buffs, so if you have deathwhisper, it will make an even smaller difference by comparison. If you throw Dance of Fire and crit passives into the mix, Vicious Stance becomes "barely noticable".

In short - the worse your crits are naturally, the better you wind up actually being with vicious stance.
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Old 09-11-2006, 04:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

[ QUOTE ]
In short - the worse your crits are naturally, the better you wind up actually being with vicious stance.

[/ QUOTE ]

well at least now i know why it works so well for my main! my only problem is that ive got so few mp to begin with that its a complete drain if i toggle on my vs. from what you say it seems that it is really only something youd want to use (perhaps on an emergency basis) if youre hunting/pvping unbuffed; is that truly the case?
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Old 09-11-2006, 04:39 AM   #6
MalineII
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

It's worthwhile on dagger stabs during PvP, no matter the buff status, from what I hear, but I don't have a high level character with VS. Some PWs I know like to just toggle it on and leave it until MP is drained during PvE, buffed or not.
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Old 09-11-2006, 05:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Maline explained VS to me not too long ago. As an HE or PR, both of which have Crit Power 2, you really won't notice it. Honestly, the only way you'll notice it is on VERY low P Def targets, like lowbies, or Hexed casters.
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Theres no reason for an archer to use Vicious Stance in PvE. Now in a 1v1 or a quick fight out in the open, you might as well because you won't drain through your mp and your better off with more damage. In a siege it's dumb to ever toggle it on because you'll always need mp.

As for daggers, it's more efficient in PvE to just toggle Vicious Stance on and swing to do more dps. In PvP you toggle it on just before you dive in and spam stab someone. You turn it off just as quick. And yes the class that most benefits from Vicious Stance is Plainswalker
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Old 09-11-2006, 08:06 AM   #9
Tarun
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

I have level 14 VS on my warlord, and I hardly notice any increase on it at all. It's not uncommon for me to crit with VS for less than twice the damage of a normal hit. I only do about 5-20 more damage with it on crits which just isn't worth it for the 14 mp a tick - even in pvp.
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

well its kinda stupid then to put it as an option if it isnt even at least the equivalent to (Focus+DeathWisper). The other thing that I noticed is that it seems to REDUCE my total crits. Is there a purpose for that? Becuase ive tested it multiple times and yes it does indeed seem to reduce my total crits, id say by nearly 30% -40% altogether.

Lvl 6X Hawkeye
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Old 09-19-2006, 06:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Wow, I guess I'd better stop using it then. :rollseyes:

I sometimes get 3, 4, 5 or 6 crits in a row. I could be getting more!?!
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:06 AM   #12
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world do they continue to have viscious stance in the game when it does absolutley nothing for critical hits whatsoever. I mean I maxed it out at lvl 66 and its still a negligable if not completely non factor for hunting with. It doesnt actually do ANYTHING! In fact it seems to cut down my actual crit rate to nearly none when i do have it active. Could someone tell me why its still in game, or maybe why NC hasnt maybe corrected a useless skill and have it actually do something besides suck up Skill Points! Maybe have it actually add 1 point to the crit rate on your stats for each level you actual get. Now that would be helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

no: I know for a fact he is right.

Seemily I used VS with my SE to get from 38-40 in 2 hours why cause I diched my dagger equiped my +8 top D duals, and slaped on VS with a BD that was using light and fire.
I hit so much harder with it.

But for all the times at higher lvls that I've played saggitarious I have notied that even tho my crt rate doesn't fall, it does have a farless chance to crt while it's on.

VS is worthless in PvE cause of the MP cost to use it, couple that with the use of MP from bow pulls and your drained in under 5 minutes.

it don't help archers out side of olympaid.. and hardly much at that.

It's most noticeable on daggers, not just PW, but TH to...when I played a TH I used VS all the time and stayed away from skills.

cause VS for a dagger uses less mp while skills burn away mp alot faster. yet while on 4X HP mobs your dmg out put is more over time with VS on then with out it and spaming skills.

IDK how it works on glads, cause they have VS in their skill list.. but I would think it's helpfull for them as well?
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:27 AM   #13
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Just tested it, i was cirtting the npc for 2.8 3.1 without VS and 2.9-3.2 with It s hard to figure out precisly as crit dmg varies from hit to hit but I d say it was adding 200 dmg per crit. Same with dances and loleye. It does nt lower your critical rate at all it s only luck. 200 more dmg is nt much on a crit but still better than nothing.
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

I complained about this once for a while with VS and archers, and one of the GMs here tested it and posted the results. I think it was done with no ss, no crit buffs, and 10 crits with VS recorded and 10 with out. The damage increase was between 30-50 on crits, something like 440 dmg --> 482. Incredibly small increase, not worth the constant 15mp a tick consumption imo.
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Old 09-19-2006, 12:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

with my TH lvl61+ VS does about 15% more damage on my critts and skills...not bad I think.. if you use a focus dagger, this is the skill you should use in PvE (and dont waste your mana on backstab etc.)
Im using a critical damage dagger, so only time I use VS is when I PvP.or if I wanna burn my mana fast
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

[ QUOTE ]
I complained about this once for a while with VS and archers, and one of the GMs here tested it and posted the results. I think it was done with no ss, no crit buffs, and 10 crits with VS recorded and 10 with out. The damage increase was between 30-50 on crits, something like 440 dmg --> 482. Incredibly small increase, not worth the constant 15mp a tick consumption imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you use it withou soulshots?, it gives an 8% bonus on crits, it s not great but still good to take. It's a pvp skill, do you stunshot mobs for example?
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

[ QUOTE ]
Just tested it, i was cirtting the npc for 2.8 3.1 without VS and 2.9-3.2 with It s hard to figure out precisly as crit dmg varies from hit to hit but I d say it was adding 200 dmg per crit. Same with dances and loleye. It does nt lower your critical rate at all it s only luck. 200 more dmg is nt much on a crit but still better than nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes very correct, the problem is your damage is like a roll of a dice, if you say, land a crit hit on the lower end spectrum of your damage output, then its going to look like its doing nothing.
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:34 AM   #18
MalineII
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

Since VS is fixed damage - wouldn't it be the other way around, more noticable the lower you rolled?
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

[ QUOTE ]
Since VS is fixed damage - wouldn't it be the other way around, more noticable the lower you rolled?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but thats the funny thing about this game, you never really roll high / low in a large disparity, like the high / low spectrum is already pretty close, but i have noticed that i can crit for 900 - 1100 with my polearm with VS running and i can also crit for 900 - 1100 without it running, but i can usally crit higher then 1100 with it running, like up towards 1300 roughly.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:29 AM   #20
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Default Re: Viscious Stance is still useless!

VS will always be more noticeable the lower the base damage is. o.O
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